http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2320/1721860291_f1c27ab824.jpg

In the above picture (and every Saturday, when my band plays) the lighting outside the bar is a little difficult to shoot with. Firstly, there is the extremely warm lamppost just a few feet from the door (which is the main area to hang out and smoke, naturally.) That always casts a very strong warm yellow-orange hue on all shots. On the other hand, there are also the fluorescent tubes lighting the lobby and awning of the building itself, which casts a very cool bluish-white.

And what happens when the subject is anywhere near both light sources? The picture speaks for itself. (Note that no color or exposure corrections have been made. Only cropping.)

How do you handle your white balance settings in situations like these? To the human eye, the range is not as discernible. Yellowish light is ignored and interpreted as white or natural, while fluorescents cast a pale pale blue white that is just as easily ignored. But not by the camera. The sensor is sensitive enough to capture this wide variety of color temperatures and can't seem to compensate enough in either direction to give a nice natural and balanced look.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that I have tried multiple white balance presets (including daylight) but none of them have worked. Doing manual adjustments (either in-camera or in Lightroom), I can't seem to find the right balance between either temperature extremes to negate the color casts they bring. And I don't want to desaturate either channel as well.

Interesting question, I too would like to know what the experts will say. IMO, I will use a WB for the dominant light source, in this case, I think I will use a Flourescent WB.

What say you masters?

Thanks,
Rey

In situations where Auto and the other preset WB settings don't quite "get it," I use custom WB... which is why it's there in the first place:)

i'd use the custom white balance as well...

That's what I did as well. But, as I said, I can't seem to find a good and natural-looking balance between the harsh blue of the fluorescent and the harsh yellow of the lamppost.

Then shoot raw...:)

Custom WB. But in any case, RAW will be your best bet so that you can still adjust WB in post. :)

I *do* shoot exclusively in RAW. I'm sorry, but I've said I can't seem to find the right balance of hues (between the blues and yellows) both in-camera AND in post (i.e. Lightroom). I was wondering if there were certain techniques or settings to overcome such mixed ambient light sources (short of using a flashgun, naturally.)

When I attempt to adjust the white balance for one light source, it ends up exaggerating the color cast effects of the other complementary light source (blue vs. yellow.) This is a natural phenomenon, as subtracting yellow from blue will increase the latter's strength and adding yellow to blue will dilute it (bring the overall hue closer to yellow.) This can be seen clearly in White Balance adjustment sliders, where blue and yellow are on opposite ends of the scale.

...

I'm guessing the best way around this is a specific color filter?

Then I guess this is the time where filters come in...:)

@Franz: Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. Oh well. :D

or you can always convert to black and white:D

custom white balance works well for me. it's a tough act at first. trial and error. there's nothing more fulfilling than getting great pics out of the camera without any post processing. photography is a discipline and an art.

Then I guess this is the time where filters come in...:)

Not really, because the only color filter is the Tungsten filter (80A) to correct for the yellow/orange cast for daylight film and the reverse (85A) for correcting the blue when using tungsten pro films. DSLRs have that built in with the WB settings.

In Mike's sample, I think the WB should be set to get the right skin tone even if that throws the blue background off the scale but then you might lose the ambiance of the moment.

Not really, because the only color filter is the Tungsten filter (80A) to correct for the yellow/orange cast for daylight film and the reverse (85A) for correcting the blue when using tungsten pro films. DSLRs have that built in with the WB settings.

In Mike's sample, I think the WB should be set to get the right skin tone even if that throws the blue background off the scale but then you might lose the ambiance of the moment.

isn't the skylight 1A filter use to warm the colors up on daylight film too?

feel free to correct me bong..

What about using colored filters to negate a certain cast? The only filters I use are skylight and UV! haha...

I *do* shoot exclusively in RAW. I'm sorry, but I've said I can't seem to find the right balance of hues (between the blues and yellows) both in-camera AND in post (i.e. Lightroom). I was wondering if there were certain techniques or settings to overcome such mixed ambient light sources (short of using a flashgun, naturally.)

When I attempt to adjust the white balance for one light source, it ends up exaggerating the color cast effects of the other complementary light source (blue vs. yellow.) This is a natural phenomenon, as subtracting yellow from blue will increase the latter's strength and adding yellow to blue will dilute it (bring the overall hue closer to yellow.) This can be seen clearly in White Balance adjustment sliders, where blue and yellow are on opposite ends of the scale.

...

I'm guessing the best way around this is a specific color filter?

Try thr split-toning sliders. It can work wonders. :Grin:

I'm no expert but for mixed lighting it's always custom white balance for me and RAW try, using Expodisc or those expodisc clone for setting your custom white balance :)

isn't the skylight 1A filter use to warm the colors up on daylight film too?

feel free to correct me bong..

Just barely. Like the UV(0) filter, it filters invisible ultra-violet light which creates a purple/blue cast on film when shot in the shade (so DSLRs has the 'shade' option). FWIW stronger UV filters (HAZE) can correct the purple fringing in DSLRs.

By the way, Lightroom and ACR's color calibration profiles are way off from that of the real color rendition of the K10D. Just compare JPG and RAW conversions.

Try these settings I found in DPR:
In camera calibration in lightroom and ACR4 select ACR3.7 Profile (don't use Pentax 1.00)

Tint -10

Red hue -10
Red sat +21

Green hue -11
Green sat -4

Blue hue +10
Blue sat +2

Contrast +33 (Optional)

Makes for very nice color nearly identical to the JPG colors (bright mode) and the skin tones look better.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2149/1723823153_f78433c747_o.jpg
Okay, adjusting the white balance for the skin tones (and the brightness, as making it cooler clipped some shadows... but I ended up with some noise. Oh well) I ended up with this. This is about as cool as you can get in Lightroom - 2K. Skintones are a bit better, but the blue cast is more annoying then ever.

I guess the solution would really be to just live with it and enjoy the ambiance, as Bong said.

Then shoot raw...:)

seconded...:Grin:

Have you tried using the white balance picker tool in LR and ACR?? Hehehe...

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/2791/99566177ox3.jpg
(http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/2791/99566177ox3.jpg)

michael,

always custom set for the skin tones when shooting people. true, as wb is custom set to one color/temp, the others will be exaggerated.

if you want to preserve the ambiance and have the right skin tone, bugahan mo ng direct flash at around 1/8 or lower. best if we actually do it in an actual setting so you can see what i mean. i can't seem to find the sample pics i need to show you.

in the meantime, eto muna. no flash. DS. custom wb on the priest's sutana. skin tone is reddish because i was shooting from the shadow side. but notice the highlights. puti ang guhit diba? there was one 1000-watt halogen trained on the couple.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2085/1725305154_4effb961ed.jpg


next, still no flash. notice the bluish tint of the sunlight in the windows. okay lang for me as i was after the drama naman of the couple.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2065/1724384965_3d698f8965.jpg


for extreme cases like your sample pic, either concentrate on the skin tone or just move them to another place or use a small amount of direct flash - just enough to kill the yellow cast and not to blow out the highlights. hope this helps. works for me.

I agree with Joseph to concentrate on the skin tones and also with Franz in shooting RAW. Especially wedding photography or any important events. I usually shoot RAW+JPG Large Fine.

By the way, Lightroom and ACR's color calibration profiles are way off from that of the real color rendition of the K10D. Just compare JPG and RAW conversions.

Try these settings I found in DPR:
In camera calibration in lightroom and ACR4 select ACR3.7 Profile (don't use Pentax 1.00)

Tint -10

Red hue -10
Red sat +21

Green hue -11
Green sat -4

Blue hue +10
Blue sat +2

Contrast +33 (Optional)

Makes for very nice color nearly identical to the JPG colors (bright mode) and the skin tones look better.

Are these settings specific to my image, or a generic set of values? They didn't seem to work out too well for me. :(

Have you tried using the white balance picker tool in LR and ACR?? Hehehe...

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/2791/99566177ox3.jpg


Yup.. and ended up with pretty much the same shot you did. I chose the stacked monoblocs in the background as my white source.

michael,

always custom set for the skin tones when shooting people. true, as wb is custom set to one color/temp, the others will be exaggerated.

if you want to preserve the ambiance and have the right skin tone, bugahan mo ng direct flash at around 1/8 or lower. best if we actually do it in an actual setting so you can see what i mean. i can't seem to find the sample pics i need to show you.

in the meantime, eto muna. no flash. DS. custom wb on the priest's sutana. skin tone is reddish because i was shooting from the shadow side. but notice the highlights. puti ang guhit diba? there was one 1000-watt halogen trained on the couple.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2085/1725305154_4effb961ed.jpg


next, still no flash. notice the bluish tint of the sunlight in the windows. okay lang for me as i was after the drama naman of the couple.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2065/1724384965_3d698f8965.jpg


for extreme cases like your sample pic, either concentrate on the skin tone or just move them to another place or use a small amount of direct flash - just enough to kill the yellow cast and not to blow out the highlights. hope this helps. works for me.

Thanks, Joey! Low-powered flash sounds like the answer. Or maybe low-powered slow-sync flash.

Generally, I try not to always go for natural skin tones. I try to capture a subtle amount of the ambient lighting (so I don't end up with jaundiced subjects, mostly.) :D

the problem here is that the mix of light is not a real mix, you have certain areas with a blue cast and certain areas with a yellow cast and some in blue+yellow. It isnt a BLUE + YELLOW cast throughout.

if i were in your position i would use flash to overpower the yellow ambient, maybe try diffusing it via a coupon bond in front of the flash or using the built in diffuser. Try setting the flash to the widest setting it would go and you can use FEC to up the flash intensity if you need more power. You can also try lighting your subject with the falloff while the hotspot of the flash lights the background. oh and set your WB to flash when you do this.

These are all theoretical ideas though as i havent been in such a situation. Give it a try and please report back so we can see all the results, would be great to know exactly what to do if this comes up.

oh, other ideas would be to use a filter to cool the ambient (will be a big filter though). or to light the background with a remote flash with a built in warming filter to match the ambient.

Are these settings specific to my image, or a generic set of values? They didn't seem to work out too well for me. :(

These are specific to the color rendition of the K10D. However every camera is different. If you want the exact calibration you should use a Gretag Macbeth chart and the ACR Calibration script. :Grin:

Mike, I like the first version better inspite of the orange cast on the skin. The way I see it, for extreme lighting consitions such as this you can either try to get the "right-looking" skin tone or the "right-looking" picture.
Nols

the problem here is that the mix of light is not a real mix, you have certain areas with a blue cast and certain areas with a yellow cast and some in blue+yellow. It isnt a BLUE + YELLOW cast throughout.

if i were in your position i would use flash to overpower the yellow ambient, maybe try diffusing it via a coupon bond in front of the flash or using the built in diffuser. Try setting the flash to the widest setting it would go and you can use FEC to up the flash intensity if you need more power. You can also try lighting your subject with the falloff while the hotspot of the flash lights the background. oh and set your WB to flash when you do this.

These are all theoretical ideas though as i havent been in such a situation. Give it a try and please report back so we can see all the results, would be great to know exactly what to do if this comes up.

oh, other ideas would be to use a filter to cool the ambient (will be a big filter though). or to light the background with a remote flash with a built in warming filter to match the ambient.

@Chris: Yeah, that's the biggest problem I noticed as well. A blue+yellow cast would come out... orange, right? Which is relatively much easier to fix.

Regarding flash, what is FEC?

I'll experiment with various WB and flash settings this weekend and see how things go.

As it is, I'm trying to avoid setting up a "mini-studio" by having too many off-camera lights and reflectors all over the place. :P

Mike, I like the first version better inspite of the orange cast on the skin. The way I see it, for extreme lighting consitions such as this you can either try to get the "right-looking" skin tone or the "right-looking" picture.
Nols

In which case, I'll almost always try to go for the "right picture." :)

@Chris: Yeah, that's the biggest problem I noticed as well. A blue+yellow cast would come out... orange, right? Which is relatively much easier to fix.

Regarding flash, what is FEC?

I'll experiment with various WB and flash settings this weekend and see how things go.

As it is, I'm trying to avoid setting up a "mini-studio" by having too many off-camera lights and reflectors all over the place. :P

Hi again. FEC is flash exposure compensation....works like your exposure compensation but with the flash. move it up and the flash outputs more power.

The whle idea is to overpower all the ambient lighting with your flash. The problem is that you need to make the flash reach your background so they dont come out lit against a black background (like those coming form normal point and shoot cameras).

The options i can think of are
1) You can use some sort of blue screen to make the lamp light cooler before it hits your subjects. but like i said this would be a big filter

2) You can filter the lights in the background (again a big filter)

3) I was suggesting that you pop a remote flash for the background but i just remembered that the blue lights are also creeping into the subjects so merely coloring the background yellow will not fix that problem

4) Another is by putting your flash into manual mode, set it to the widest setting you can get it to and then pop down the diffuser (which pretty much widens the scope of the flash). Then pop test photos to see if you can light the background and the subjects, adjust flash power you can manually input the power. If youre seeing that the background is still dark and your subjects are starting to get overexposed, try pointing the flash directly at the background and lighting the subjects with the falloff from the flash.

Again, these are just theories you may want to try. Please post some results =)

Thanks.

Mike, I like the first version better inspite of the orange cast on the skin. The way I see it, for extreme lighting consitions such as this you can either try to get the "right-looking" skin tone or the "right-looking" picture.Nols

"Right-looking" skin tone or picture...

Here's a tricky one where the seven year old debutante was lit on one side by a halogen lamp while sitting beside a window on a cloudy/rainy day. Getting the tone on her right side would have given the window side a pale blue cast and getting the tone on that side meant a deep yellow cast on the other side. I chose the latter because it finally gave the "right-looking" picture.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2305/1738162352_403ed5bc49.jpg
DS + SMCP A 50/2

"Right-looking" skin tone or picture...

Here's a tricky one where the seven year old debutante was lit on one side by a halogen lamp while sitting beside a window on a cloudy/rainy day. Getting the tone on her right side would have given the window side a pale blue cast and getting the tone on that side meant a deep yellow cast on the other side. I chose the latter because it finally gave the "right-looking" picture.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2305/1738162352_403ed5bc49.jpg
DS + SMCP A 50/2

Beautiful shot, Bong! That's exactly the sort of toning and color cast I look for when shooting portraits. Ambient is much more aesthetically pleasing than natural (for me, anyway.)

Hi again. FEC is flash exposure compensation....works like your exposure compensation but with the flash. move it up and the flash outputs more power.

The whle idea is to overpower all the ambient lighting with your flash. The problem is that you need to make the flash reach your background so they dont come out lit against a black background (like those coming form normal point and shoot cameras).

The options i can think of are
1) You can use some sort of blue screen to make the lamp light cooler before it hits your subjects. but like i said this would be a big filter

2) You can filter the lights in the background (again a big filter)

3) I was suggesting that you pop a remote flash for the background but i just remembered that the blue lights are also creeping into the subjects so merely coloring the background yellow will not fix that problem

4) Another is by putting your flash into manual mode, set it to the widest setting you can get it to and then pop down the diffuser (which pretty much widens the scope of the flash). Then pop test photos to see if you can light the background and the subjects, adjust flash power you can manually input the power. If youre seeing that the background is still dark and your subjects are starting to get overexposed, try pointing the flash directly at the background and lighting the subjects with the falloff from the flash.

Again, these are just theories you may want to try. Please post some results =)

Thanks.

Slow-sync flash strikes again! It seems to be the answer for this particular problem. Though whether or not it can compensate for the severely polarized color casts remains to be seen... until Saturday. :Grin:

By filtering the lights of the background... you literally mean a sheet large enough to control ALL the ambient lighting? Okay... pretty much throws the whole notion of candid photography out the window. Hahaha! :D

well not really that large, you just need something to cover the bulb of the flourescent. or if youre trying to control the lamp post a sheet just large enough to change the color temp of the lamp post to match the flourescent.

try the flash overpowering the ambient, can lead to a good surprise if it works.

oh and youre not dragging the shutter here, youre trying to minimize ambient light levels affecting the picture.

Beautiful shot, Bong! That's exactly the sort of toning and color cast I look for when shooting portraits. Ambient is much more aesthetically pleasing than natural (for me, anyway.)

Natural? Well...I think I know what you mean. :Grin:

Getting the white balance perfectly right sometimes rob the moment making it feel like a studio or staged shot. Reality is usually a little bit 'off' and is sometimes captured best that way.

Thanks, Mike!

Interesting and helpful thread. I found this while doing a search for threads about white balance because it's one of the things about photography that I've come to appreciate a lot more in the past few weeks.

I really think that setting the correct white balance can either make or break a photograph (or even an entiresset of photos). If not set correctly, I usually get an overly yellow tinge on my shots.

Considering what has already been said, do you guys have any general tips or guiding principles on setting the white balance? Like "in this condition, you usually should use this setting."

Me, I find that in general, the custom presets of the K100D are more or less spot on. For example, when I'm in a room lit with your standard flourescent tube, the "flourescent light: white light" setting pretty much does the trick.

Most of the time, they're spot-on. The only ones that can get thrown off are Shade, either of the three fluorescent settings (it really makes a difference which one you choose (D, N or W) or even Tungsten (especially if the light you're shooting under is actually Halogen or something like that)

Daylight, though purported as the setting able to render colors "closest to what your eye is seeing" can sometimes get thrown off. But chances are either that or AWB work just fine.

Moral lesson? Shoot RAW. :D

--------

As an aside, I HAVE tried shooting the same lighting conditions over the last few weeks. The only pleasing results I've had without mixed color casts have been the result of hotshoe flash and compensating for both the flash and away from one color cast or the other.

In the sample lighting conditions from the first photo, you really can't get away from one color cast when you have two very strong light sources close together and that differ in color temperatures.

... (it really makes a difference which one you choose (D, N or W) or even Tungsten (especially if the light you're shooting under is actually Halogen or something like that)
Oh yes, I totally agree with this. It makes a big difference.

Moral lesson? Shoot RAW.
Bakit po? :Grin: (if I start shooting exclusively in RAW... wow, I'll have to get me more storage memory. hehe.)

--------

I definitely have to get me a hotshoe flash.

Oh yes, I totally agree with this. It makes a big difference.


Bakit po? :Grin: (if I start shooting exclusively in RAW... wow, I'll have to get me more storage memory. hehe.)

--------

I definitely have to get me a hotshoe flash.

Pao, that's one of the reason why I told you that you will be needing more storage memory.. :D

Because if you shoot in RAW, you can always non-destructively adjust your White Balance in post. :)


For that matter, most of your other settings - sharpness, contrast, color, exposure (within reason, of course), etc.

Pao, that's one of the reason why I told you that you will be needing more storage memory.. :D

Yup! When covering events that last a few hours, 3 4GB cards is just about enough for my 10MP RAW files (at about 16.1MB each). Your results may vary. :D

paolo, i'll teach you to customize your WB settings. hope to see you dec 8.
joey

paolo, i'll teach you to customize your WB settings. hope to see you dec 8.
joey
cant go eh, will be in tagaytay :( at least i get to shoot there and practice. hehe.

cant go eh, will be in tagaytay :( at least i get to shoot there and practice. hehe.

pao,

i'll be in tagaytay din pala december 8 to shoot a wedding. should we end up in the same place, let's work on WB adjustments. we're leaving 6am. (so i'm sure i can't make it to the EB).

joey

sorry in advance for bringing this old thread back to life haha,

so here it goes,
i'm having trouble with my white balance, so i bought this vivicap earlier and followed this instructions (http://kxuser.com/2010/02/manual-white-balance-on-the-k-x/)
with or without the vivicap, my pentax kx always fail to capture the correct white balance,
after choosing my whites spot on the image, nothing really happens,

I'm no expert but for mixed lighting it's always custom white balance for me and RAW try, using Expodisc or those expodisc clone for setting your custom white balance :)

speaking of expo disk...can i ask where did you bought your expo disk..please pm...i'm planning to buy this... thanks your help will be appreciated...