This maybe out of the scope of this forum.

I have always wondered about this. There are a lot of organizations and forums for photogs but rarely do I find any for videographers. Why is it? Are we as photographers more helpful and more sharing to each other of our knowledge? Or are the videographers just more exclusive to themselves, to the point of keeping their knowledge to themselves?

Just asking.

PS:
If there are videographers here, please forgive me, this is just an observation and not a generalization of you guys. I maybe wrong. I'd like to be wrong.

Hi Marco,

There are more photographers here in the Philippines than videographers. Jason Magbanua is a member of Digital Photographers Philippines Inc. He is one of the best video artist in the land. You can start this thread by asking questions about videography since photo & video work hand in hand together. Until then. Best Regards.

This maybe out of the scope of this forum.

I have always wondered about this. There are a lot of organizations and forums for photogs but rarely do I find any for videographers. Why is it? Are we as photographers more helpful and more sharing to each other of our knowledge? Or are the videographers just more exclusive to themselves, to the point of keeping their knowledge to themselves?

Just asking.

PS:
If there are videographers here, please forgive me, this is just an observation and not a generalization of you guys. I maybe wrong. I'd like to be wrong.
Yup, sad to say it's a fact that there are few forums for videographers. I remember jason mentioned in one of the threads here that there are 3 existing videography forums in the net.

But for me, I think it's because there are far less videographers than photographers. It is only in this digital age that videographers are starting to grow in numbers gradually since videocams and editing machines (PC/Mac) are getting affordable nowadays (heck, you can even practice video shooting with your mobile phone!) ... but then again, there are only a few who gets really serious about it.

The day I see hunters in churches & receptions holding a videocam instead of cameras will be the day i start believing that videographers are already many out there and yet WE are just keeping our knowledge to ourselves, hehehe:Grin:

But that's just me.


-bry

very good point marco.

i think bryan and eric hit the nail in the head when they stated that there are just fewer videographers.

On the contrary, the wedding videographers I know freely share ideas, time, tips and equipment.

One thing holding us back though is the lack of a formal organization.

As of this writing, that's what in the works. Hope it pushes through.

This maybe out of the scope of this forum.

I have always wondered about this. There are a lot of organizations and forums for photogs but rarely do I find any for videographers. Why is it? Are we as photographers more helpful and more sharing to each other of our knowledge? Or are the videographers just more exclusive to themselves, to the point of keeping their knowledge to themselves?

Just asking.

PS:
If there are videographers here, please forgive me, this is just an observation and not a generalization of you guys. I maybe wrong. I'd like to be wrong.



Marco,

I am a videographer as well. And don't worry about it you are not offending me or anyone in my opinion. I am just a newbie, but my hunch may just be on the button as to why.

First of all, I don't believe people, whether video or photos in general are scared of sharing their know-how. Some are, but usually they are the less talented ones. I use to hang out often at Quiapo in the places you develop pictures, and almost all pros there can walk in and ask what your settings are, or what you did, and most are eager to tell you what it is. Same for video.

But the main trouble with video is not the technique in shooting. The trouble is editing. I always say this - with photographs, you need a good shooter. With video, your editor must really be good. With photos, you have to get it the first time. With video, you have to be a good editor or else even the best footage can be rendered inutile. A good editor can salvage footages with locks of shakes and come out with acceptable results. Of course, the editor will work harder. With photos, you don't really want to do post processing (PP) to correct mistakes. If the photographer is good, PP is used to enhance or even create new art. But the photographer has to be good. Really good.

With photography, it will take you years, maybe a lifetime to master just a type of photography, let's say, macro photography, flowers (not insect, not coins, not jewelry, but macro on flowers alone). With video, as a shooter, you can learn 90% of most there is to learn as far as shooting goes in 2-3 years. The burden of mastery now shifts in editing. That will be a non-ending process. It will become easier of course, but the challenge in video shifts to the edits.

With video, the techniques I learned from it is portable to other projects. I have personally covered, weddings, birthdays, debuts, festivals, and even funerals on video. And I can tell you that the technique in shooting is portable and re-usable about 95% of the techniques. Not so with photography. A studio photographer or that same macro photographer is going to struggle doing a wedding or a wildlife shoot. But a videographer can move from wedding, to studio, to funerals, to a childbirth shoot, etc. It's the editing that kills the output.

And training a video shooter is easier. Learning curve is not as steep. This is why, you can hire a P500 shooter in video easy. But find a good editor, and you are out of luck. But you can find lots of good folks with photoshop skills or who are graduate of Fine Arts who can make wonderful layouts or digital prints. But where do you look for an editor who can bring out the best in a footage? There is basically no school dedicated to editing.

So, video is not considered a "serious" artform by many. Many expect their video coverage as boring or just because you have to have one. Jason Magbanua changed all that. He put respectability into the craft, particularly when it comes to weddings. If you ask me, he is the father of modern videography in this country. Maybe I am wrong about this, and his wife is going to kill him for being a "father" of another spouse :D, but it's very hard to imagine videography without him being a pioneer, at least as far as wedding goes.

Later on, as digital cinema and film making takes on ground, I hope we will see this change at a faster rate. The video industry will have good shooters and good editors.

Right now, very, very, very few know how to tell stories in video. Sure, many know the tools. Many are experts in Premier, Pinnacle, Avid, even FCP. But master of tools is not mastery of story telling. And that is the downfall and weakness of the industry. They are experts in the tools, but lousy story tellers. Need proof? Watch a typical wedding video. And I am not talking about a P3k video shoot. I've seen a P50K contract, and except for the effects and the use of 2-3x 3-ccd cameras and lots of lightings and wireless mics, the editing is really sub-par. It looks good. The cuts are clean, but the story telling does not move you. The editing is so far that the video does not register. It does not touch or excite the viewer. You know when you cut it good when a 3rd party, who does not know the couple, never been to the wedding, stops and see a 3-5 minute segment of your cut to its end and be mesmerized by it.

This morning, I had a call from an acquiantance and she wanted to know how much I charge for video editing "mtv style." She has seen my work and she knows Jason is expensive and I am "cheap":Grin:. I told her P6k for footage of up to 3 hours plus P1k for every 1 hr or fraction in excess. And no extensive color correction or I charge extra for that too. So, that's how much I value my editing skills. It's not much, but its darn more than others for sure! Because I think I am a decent cutter.

That term "mtv style" is also misleading. People thing that if it is fast music and fast cuts, it's mtv. I could tell them that Josh Groban or Pavarotti got shown at the MTV channel way back and they were not singing fast songs! But I understood what she meant.

So, you see, the problem is not shooting technique. It's cutting or editing technique that is lacking. I realized this very early when I started 2 years ago. In fact, that's what I found more difficult to learn - the editing part. The shooting part, sort of just grew and my repertoir of shots just increased through time. But the editing evolved and changed with me and the tools I used.

And it's not the use of the tools, either. Many are experts in the tools they use. It's how to tell a story effectively that is weak. The problem is, many videographers will not acknowledge that. And even if they do, they won't take the time to learn how to cut properly. Many know Jason's work but nobody wants to learn how to cut properly. Or at least, ask the simpliest question - "what is the process of an effective cut?"

Remember - with both photos and videos, the evidence and the proof is there for all to see. What needs to be done is to reverse engineer it. It may be harder with photos even. But with video, a decent cutter knows how anothe r editor did it, or at least the tools as to how to do it. And that is the other problem with most editors too - the fixation to effects or special effects. Some think that by using 3d transitions, or fancy fonts, or split screens, PIP, they are cool. Jason comes to the rescue again. It's really nothing fancy. Simple transitions and dissolves only for most footages. And yet, his videos can make most people cry. Again, most videographers miss the point.

There is another thing I noticed about videographers too and you will likely not find the response from a photographer. You ask for a portfolio or sample work from a photographer and somehow they can show you something. Ask for sample videos from many veteran videographers, and you get nothing. Strange, but true. But that's what I learned as I was looking for shooters and others to show me their work so I can hire them (with me as a photographer and they handle the video). Strange, no? I wonder why?

If you need to see how a wedding video should or rather how it is treated by a maestro, go to www.jasonmagbanua.com. I also have my own style, but I haven't set up my web site yet. And I am not in the same depth or stature as Jason :). If you want, I can show you some of my work as I already have a DVD Sampler of it. Just email me and maybe we can meet or I can mail it to you. And I am not ashamed to show you my work, even if you will tihnk less of it. :)



-Mel

Master Mel,

I have never thought less of you. Never will. As I look at your responses in the threads here, every one of them makes so much sense. It's not just answers just so you can answer. They are all very in-depth and very thorough.

You mentioned Jason Magbanua (http://www.jasonmagbanua.com/) as the pioneer in Philippine Wedding Videography. I couldn't agree with you more. His was the first video website I saw when I started perusing the web for Filipino Photographers and Videographers. And I agree that his videos are one of the best I've seen. I also saw Threelogy's (http://www.threelogy.com/) website and I was also quite impressed by their work.

The thing is, now, most of the wedding videos I see are MTV-style. I do not know if this is driven by demand. But sometimes, as I look through all the videos in their galleries, it becomes so repetitive. I am not saying that it is bad, it is not, because I know that for the couples who are the subjects of these videos, I am very sure that they all love their work. And the people who watch these videos during the wedding I am sure were all impressed too.

As I look for alternatives, I found Buddy Gancenia (http://www.buddygancenia.com). His work is very different from Jason's or Threelogy's in that he offers a different style of videography. Have you seen his work? What do you think of him?

Thanks,

Marco

PS

Oh by the way, of course I want to see your work too. But the thing is, I'm 9000 miles away from you, he he. Would you be able to send it to me by mail? If you could, I'll PM you my address.

Thanks again.

Wow. This is what I've been kickin' about. Some serious talk about wedding videography pinoy style. You hit the point, Mel. As a matter of fact, you hit a lot of points - styles, editing, storytelling, industry standarts, rates and whatnots. I might think this is way OT as we are on the wedding photography boards, but where else do we get to discuss this? No where. Well, yeah, dvxuser.com (http://www.dvxuser.com) and other online forums offer a vast wealth of info and resources but none of them pinoy-based. I wanna know more. Really. Someone brilliant pinoy should pick this up and set-up a videography forum or sumthin'. (Uh, Jason, ikaw na rin lng ang "father of pinoy wedding videography", kaw na rin nga magset-up ng forum.hehe) :)

It is definitely time. Indeed.

Chill! :D

Truly humbled by your kind words guys. But the title goes to Imacron (much longer than I have been in the business (much older too, hehe).

Ironic that a serious discussion on wedding videography is in a photog forum eh?

I think it's a great time for wedding videography here in the country. So many talented people coming out with great videos from all over. Each with his own distinct style. This affords the couples a variety of choices.

I'd go as far to say that it's a golden age. More and more poeple see the need for good wedding videos. Slowly but surely, our craft is being considered "serious" by the general public and more importantly, our markets.

Truly humbled by your kind words guys. But the title goes to Imacron (much longer than I have been in the business (much older too, hehe).

Ironic that a serious discussion on wedding videography is in a photog forum eh?

I think it's a great time for wedding videography here in the country. So many talented people coming out with great videos from all over. Each with his own distinct style. This affords the couples a variety of choices.

I'd go as far to say that it's a golden age. More and more poeple see the need for good wedding videos. Slowly but surely, our craft is being considered "serious" by the general public and more importantly, our markets.


He he he! Ever so modest, Jason!

Nope, you're the man. No need to pass it to others.

True, Imacron has been here for a long period of time. But they never caught the imagination as you did. Why? Because your videos, even without the high tech of Imacron (no disrespect to Imacron either here:)), is more direct. In fact, your videos are less technically "sterling" especially the early years (now don't get mad at me here!:Angry: but I'm sure you will agree). But guess, what, you know where to hit the spot. And that is what makes you stand out. And that is why I, and I speak only for myself here, but others will sure agree, that you are the father of wedding photography.

You showed the way of doing videos with a minimalist approach. You shifted the thought that you really need very, very expensive stuff, lighting, sound to get things done. Your ealier works betrays the technical problems and equipment you used and yet, they bear your mark and the promise of greater things to come. And you did deliver it, for the past 5 years. Now, you have more expensive gear, but that is just icing on the cake. Your style and mark is definitive Jason M.

And more than that. Your risked your work to be seen by all. You laid it down the line, warts and all. Your updates and posting of your weddings, gave many of us hints on what is possible and what is the standard to which we will judge our own work. As a newbie video shooter, that is inspiring. It took a great load off our heads and hearts as to what will be acceptable, what is possible, and if it is feasible at all. That is why I consider you to be the father of modern wedding videography in the Phils. Again, no disresepct to Imacron or others (i have seen 2-3 of their stuff so I know they are good).


But your greatest contribution is you made wedding videos mainstream. Your body of work shows set the standard of what is possible. It made wedding videos respectable. Wedding videos not an afterthought anymore, just so you have one. Indeed, it is slowly being resurrected into a respectable art form by itself. In time, maybe it will be considered on par with photography or other art forms (such as film making, documentaries, etc) as a valid segment in our society.


Yeah, I can't afford you. Heck, if I were to get married, I'd lilke you to edit my wedding (he he he, if you can give me installment plan or a discount that would be nice!). :Grin:. But your pricing also shows how much people value your work. And to that we are grateful to you.

So, enough of this pa-humble effect! You're the man!!


-Mel

Master Mel,

I have never thought less of you. Never will. As I look at your responses in the threads here, every one of them makes so much sense. It's not just answers just so you can answer. They are all very in-depth and very thorough.

You mentioned Jason Magbanua (http://www.jasonmagbanua.com/) as the pioneer in Philippine Wedding Videography. I couldn't agree with you more. His was the first video website I saw when I started perusing the web for Filipino Photographers and Videographers. And I agree that his videos are one of the best I've seen. I also saw Threelogy's (http://www.threelogy.com/) website and I was also quite impressed by their work.

The thing is, now, most of the wedding videos I see are MTV-style. I do not know if this is driven by demand. But sometimes, as I look through all the videos in their galleries, it becomes so repetitive. I am not saying that it is bad, it is not, because I know that for the couples who are the subjects of these videos, I am very sure that they all love their work. And the people who watch these videos during the wedding I am sure were all impressed too.

As I look for alternatives, I found Buddy Gancenia (http://www.buddygancenia.com). His work is very different from Jason's or Threelogy's in that he offers a different style of videography. Have you seen his work? What do you think of him?

Thanks,

Marco

PS

Oh by the way, of course I want to see your work too. But the thing is, I'm 9000 miles away from you, he he. Would you be able to send it to me by mail? If you could, I'll PM you my address.

Thanks again.



Marco,

If you are in the USA, I have already sent a sample to a friend in NJ. I can ask her to duplicate it and send it to you. PM me if you are interested. Give me your address and all that stuff. It's going to be cheaper that way than mailing it from here. Darn, if I had DSL, I can set up something in myspace and you can probably get it from there :(. Oh, well this will do for now.


-----------

Also, I hope the moderators/sysop allow us more leeway on discussing this topic even if it is not directly about photography. If not, I apologize in advance for being off topic and cease further posting if they won't allow it. :Dum:



Overall, because the cost of digital cameras are going down and the era of analogue is long, long over, I expect to see improvement in our videos, particularly weddings. Even HD cameras are not as expensive now. With Canon coming out with its own consumer HD to counter Sony's dominance with the HC series, we expect to see HD cameras using 1-cmos sensor in the P50-60k soon. And I mean soon.

And don't laugh at that HC series. I have the HC3 and I can tell you that color for color it's like a 3-ccd and you won't know if I shot a scene with it or my other camera the VX-2000. So, this is lowering of cost of equipment is also good for us. Heck, even 1-ccd cameras are now in the P25-35k range. And you an even get a panny 3-ccd for P35-50k! I know these are not what the top pros use, but since we are talking videos in general, the overall picture is that the specs of equipment is better but the price is not as high as it was years ago.


Hopefully, there will be more of us so that there will be a momentum on the issue. So, I'm glad you started something here. It brought Jason out of the woordwork too! :Grin:


BTW, I read in another thread that Imacron won in the WEVA sponsored convention or something in the USA. Congrats to Imacron! This again shows that we Pinoys are really world class! Now if only we can grow this and have lots of good video shooters and editors in our midst.


Yeah, more competition, but overall, it's good for all of us, don't you think?


-Mel






-Mel

Marco,

My friend doesn't have a DVD writer, but said she'll look into her friends who have one and have it copied. Will try to mail it this weekend.

-Mel

Marco,

My friend doesn't have a DVD writer, but said she'll look into her friends who have one and have it copied. Will try to mail it this weekend.

-Mel

sir, maybe you could post a downloadable version so everyone interested can see. or you can upload it via YouTube (http://www.youtube.com). i'm interested to see your work also. hope to see it soon. :)

more power.

Marco,

My friend doesn't have a DVD writer, but said she'll look into her friends who have one and have it copied. Will try to mail it this weekend.

-Mel

Thanks Mel (can I call you that?)!

Marco

@Mel

i also do photo coverages and I'm interested to see your work....maybe we could do some work one of these days. Would it be possible for me to also get a copy of your sampler?

Thanks in advance

@Mel

i also do photo coverages and I'm interested to see your work....maybe we could do some work one of these days. Would it be possible for me to also get a copy of your sampler?

Thanks in advance


Sure! More than happy to oblige. That's why I made them. Partly demo, partly promo. I got tired of pulling out old copies of weddings to show prospective clients as to how I do my work. One day, I just said, "to heck with it! I'll compile a representative of my work and come up with a dvd sampler!"

Let's see. Give me till the end of the month. I just need to finish one wedding edit. I need to concentrate on that. The client will kill me if I don't finish it. :D

I'll get back to you guys.

Or else, you can always come over the house where I do my work and get it yourselves. I really just need to focus on this work. :)


-Mel

congrats to Jason & imacron!

:Grin:

Thanks guys for sharing those links above. I downloaded all those demos by jason and watched it. I was really stunned and mesmerized with all the dramas conceptualized in every MTV he created. Ayoko ng maging videographer/editor, feel kong pakasal uli. hehehe. Galing talaga ng Pinoy!

when i started as a wedding photographer the man who i usually shot with was dominic velasco. he is one reason i enjoyed shooting weddings. he created very many interesting photographic situations that i just had to shoot. the guy was a madman.

but he was also an artist. and the first philippine wedding videography star.

jason magbanua is another equally handsome star. who can whoop most of the big names in the international wedding video world.

congratulations, you two!

:<)

very good point marco.

i think bryan and eric hit the nail in the head when they stated that there are just fewer videographers.

On the contrary, the wedding videographers I know freely share ideas, time, tips and equipment.

One thing holding us back though is the lack of a formal organization.

As of this writing, that's what in the works. Hope it pushes through.


Good evening!

This is my "second wave" (Jonh Chua's term for the new phase of his career in photography) in videography. I started taking video footages in the early 80's, beta and analog was then the name of the game till digital came into the picture. I thought this is the time where we can catch up with photography and music/sound editing which have been with us long before we see the light of day, and indeed it has gone a long long way. I came to appreciate more this craft upon seeing the works of Jason Magbanua and Infinity of Naga. They really inspired me to improve my own style to capture the imaginations of my customers and satisfy their need for a quality production. I hope I could also get a copy of your fortfolio Mel. I know I can learn a lot from it. My congratulations to you for taking this thread a chance to enlighten us in many ways. Best regards

Good evening!

This is my "second wave" (Jonh Chua's term for the new phase of his career in photography) in videography. I started taking video footages in the early 80's, beta and analog was then the name of the game till digital came into the picture. I thought this is the time where we can catch up with photography and music/sound editing which have been with us long before we see the light of day, and indeed it has gone a long long way. I came to appreciate more this craft upon seeing the works of Jason Magbanua and Infinity of Naga. They really inspired me to improve my own style to capture the imaginations of my customers and satisfy their need for a quality production. I hope I could also get a copy of your fortfolio Mel. I know I can learn a lot from it. My congratulations to you for taking this thread a chance to enlighten us in many ways. Best regards

Hi ariel! thanks! :) really, jason started it all...i must admit, that we (infinity-mango red) also follow the footsteps of Jason, the master-sifu of 'progressive' wedding videography hehe! glad to meet a fellow bicolano here in the forum! :)

but Mango Red is going to dominate the world. Promise.

kick ass videos AND photos!

but Mango Red is going to dominate the world. Promise.

kick ass videos AND photos!

:) I know what you mean Jason... Saw their stuff... Different...

but Mango Red is going to dominate the world. Promise.

kick ass videos AND photos!


Jason,

To a degree, I agree. You and Mango Red - I like a lot. Haven't seen much of their stuff, but the ones I've seen, I like. Really grabs you, just like your work. I'm speaking of videos here. Of course their photos are outstanding!

But they are different from yours. The story telling is well done. Original, and very creative.

Of course, I like my work too! Well, as they say, "the face only a mother could love.":Grin:

It is a matter of preference in a way, but I have been looking at some videos linked here and, it's very good, but some are still "mechanical" or "forced", if you know what I mean. :Scared: Sort of technique for technique's sake, or as if it's been through a template (not they are bad of course). But it doesn't really pull you like your work and Mango Red.

but Mango Red is going to dominate the world. Promise.

kick ass videos AND photos!

I'm a fan too. :)

but Mango Red is going to dominate the world. Promise.

kick ass videos AND photos!


wow! link! link! haven't seen their stuff yet, but if jason says so, then they must really be awesome.

:<)

http://mangored.com/

don't drool eddieboy : )

sir mel,

i'd like to see that sampler too.
like to do business, can we ym, 09198004002

thanks
jjc

@dino
wow sir! i'm humbled...great fan of your work too! :)

@Mel
hey mel! thanks for the kind words dude!

@EBE
don't expect too much sir! :) not that great as the bigwigs--EBE, Dino, jason