All variables (icc profiles, photo paper, monitor calibration, etc.) being equal, how visually different are dye based prints from pigment based prints. Are the differences marked and quite discernible or are they marginal at best?

I'm considering getting a printer and information about the two systems will greatly help with my decision. Thanks!:)

All variables (icc profiles, photo paper, monitor calibration, etc.) being equal, how visually different are dye based prints from pigment based prints. Are the differences marked and quite discernible or are they marginal at best?

I'm considering getting a printer and information about the two systems will greatly help with my decision. Thanks!:)


Hi Terence,

Just some pointers:

Visually:
Pigment based are prone to metamerism, dye based no.
The Colour Gamut of Pigment is now larger than dye on some brand.

Light Fastness or Fade resistance:
Dye is much faster to fade than Pigment.

Stability:
Pigment based is more stable than dye.
Dye based, color shift start after 48 hrs (depending on the ink manufacturer).

Molecular Structure:
Pigment is stronger than Dye. That is why pigment is more fade resistant.

Hue Strength:
Pigment is stronger ( Colour Gamut is bigger ) You do not need to put more ink . Less density.

Paper compatibility:
I think dye has more. Depends on what substrate you want to use.

I hope this will help you.

I've had images printed on pigment based inkjet printers. I've also personally printed a lot on dye-based inkjet printers.

I'm happy with both. Although, my prints using dye-based inks seem to have color with more "pop".

I am currently using the Canon Pro9000 for a majority of my printing requirements. I'm happy with the results. My clients have no complaints.

The Canon Pro9000 is a dye-based inkjet printer. But I am also anxious to test the upcoming Canon Pro9500 that uses pigment-based inks.

Cheers!

Jo Avila

@Ferdinand

Thanks for the help! You've supplied me with lots of info on factors I hadn't considered with the two systems.

I have to admit, though, you lost me with the "metamerism" thing.:) I'll need to wiki or google that up.:D


@Jo

Thanks! I was actually hoping you'd chime in as well.:)

The 9000 and 9500 are out of my league as of the moment. Actually, I don't think I have photos within my files and folders that would do justice to these printers.

I'm actually considering Canon's IP4300 or IP5300 or possibly, even the IP6700D. With the Epsons, I have my eyes on the R270 and R350 which both use the Claria Inks. Any thoughts on these models?



I'd also like to hear some comments on how well both Canon and Epson stock up on their inks and various photo papers locally. Ready availability of papers and inks is definitely a consideration too.

The Canon iP4300 and iP5300 have the same print quality and have exactly the same ink set. But the iP5300 prints faster than the iP4300. Both have two black inks. It uses on black ink for photos and the other one for documents.

The iP6700D has an LCD screen that allows you to view images when printing directly from a camera and supplies other info.

It uses six CLI-8 inks. The only Canon desktop printer that currently uses more inks is the Pro9000 :D

I've never had a problem getting Canon supplies from the Canon D-Zone outlets. It's cheaper to purchase it from D-Zone. They always have what I need in stock (except when I make certain bulk purchases).

BTW, I have created custom ICC profiles for most of the Canon desktop inkjet printers :D

Cheers!

Jo Avila

@Jo

OT: Pro9000 for the photos... what printer do you use for documents? I really need to purchase my printer already. My HP1180C conked out on me last week.

I have a Canon iP3000 at home just for documents. But I have used the Pro9000 to print out a few contracts in my studio :D

Although, that's part of the advantages of using the Canon iP4300 and iP5300. They can print both documents and photos. Even IF the nozzles for document printing get clogged up you could still use those printers for photo printing.

Cheers!

Jo Avila

Clogging? Oh, men!!! Clogged due to frequency of use?

@Jo

Appreciate the help with the Canon models I mentioned. Based on the info you gave me, my options with canon are now down to the 4300 and the 6700D.

Speed isn't really much of an issue for me since I still intend to send off my files to Digiprint for bulk or volume printing. So, if the 4300 and 5300 output the same quality prints, I'd choose the the former over the latter, most likely. I'll just need to decide if I'll go straight to the next upgrade and spring for the 6700D and cough up the extra necessary amount.

Salamat uli!

I'm using a 4200 at home. Very happy with it. I use original Canon inks and paper. I tried Mitsubishi inkjet paper before. I wasn't happy with the results. Probably 'cuz I don't have the profile for that printer-paper combo. Hehe.

[quote=terence_estacio;189718]@Ferdinand

Thanks for the help! You've supplied me with lots of info on factors I hadn't considered with the two systems.

I have to admit, though, you lost me with the "metamerism" thing.:) I'll need to wiki or google that up.:D

Hi terence,

Best example of metamerism (Illuminant) is when two prints ( 1 dye and 1 pigment both have the same colorimetric values) put under 1 illuminant ( say D50)they look the same, but under a D65, they are not.

billy

Clogging? Oh, men!!! Clogged due to frequency of use?

Clogging is inevitable with any inkjet printer. It's just a matter of how frequently it happens. I used to have to do head cleaning at least once a week with my old Epson printer.

I've only had to do head cleaning twice since I received my Pro9000 back in November 2006 :D

Cheers!

Jo Avila

Some people have to learn the hard way. Sigh .... :D

I hope that I've cured you of using CD-R King paper on your Canon iP4200 :D

Cheers!

Jo Avila

I'm using a 4200 at home. Very happy with it. I use original Canon inks and paper. I tried Mitsubishi inkjet paper before. I wasn't happy with the results. Probably 'cuz I don't have the profile for that printer-paper combo. Hehe.

@Ferdinand

I did some reading up on metamerism. I've gotten a pretty general idea what it means now. Your reply above has made grasping the concept even easier, however.:)

Thanks,
Terence

@Ferdinand

I did some reading up on metamerism. I've gotten a pretty general idea what it means now. Your reply above has made grasping the concept even easier, however.:)

Thanks,
Terence

It's a pleasure to help!

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c113/ciecam97/gamut.jpg

The cyan there is pigment ink, red for Epson OEM ultrachrome ink and green for dye ink on matte uncoated paper.

However results starts to differ on coated photo papers

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c113/ciecam97/coated_pp.jpg

The purple there is third party ultrachrome, pink is Epson OEM ultrachrome and magenta there is dye ink.

The dye ink suddenly looks smaller on coated stocks which is something to ponder. Soon to evaluate other dye ink brands to determine if this is really a universal trend. BTW all these inks and rolls papers we tested are for large inkjet format printers.

Hi Jo,

Im also contemplating on what printer to buy. As an upcoming event photographer, I'll mainly use it for on-site printing. So this printer will move a lot out oof my house and car.....I prefer canon printers and papers... Will the Pixma Pro 9000 or 9500 be an overkill to buy? Its price is a little bit heavy but i know its for business OR should I go for the less expensive Pixma iP6700D? One more thing, when you say dye ink, is that the ink with CLI-8 cartradges? pls advise....

Many Thanks,

Ric

Hi Jo,

Im also contemplating on what printer to buy. As an upcoming event photographer, I'll mainly use it for on-site printing. So this printer will move a lot out oof my house and car.....I prefer canon printers and papers... Will the Pixma Pro 9000 or 9500 be an overkill to buy? Its price is a little bit heavy but i know its for business OR should I go for the less expensive Pixma iP6700D? One more thing, when you say dye ink, is that the ink with CLI-8 cartradges? pls advise....

Many Thanks,

Ric


Hi Ric,

Pro 9000 is dye base ink and Pro 9500 is pigment ink "Lucia ink"

FYI!

Hello Ferdinand, I read some of your post and you look knowledgeable. Where did you learn these stuff? Just curious :D

Hi jonkung,

I earned this knowledge from gretagmacbeth (now owned by x-rite) where I have certifications on Pressroom, ink formulation, CMS, Profilemaker, Eye-one Pro. I was trained by Kodak Polychrome Graphics ( GCG) in Inkjet Proofing, Certified in EFI bestcolor for inkjet and Certified also in EFI fiery (Toner base). Not to mention BARCO (ESKO) and ECRM CTPs. And I started Photoshop version 1 and others like quarck, freehand. Imagine what mac I am using before. But I started as HELL (heidelberg)scanner colorseparator. Workflow and application is my forte.

And I am proud to say that I am a NOVICE in digital Photography.

Thanks to all of you guys out there.

You too jun, you share it in technical way. I find you a very knowledgeable in cms too.
and thanks for the compliments. I will be conducting a training/seminar for the printer on CMS and print standardization in the offset. Complete workflow, creating and writing good profilesand how to evaluate.

Sorry for advertising boss NICK. This is overkill for photographers anyway. Will make one with your PRINTFIX if you want?

Nah! I am only up to color science 101 or those CIE XYZ tristimulus color theories use mainly for the current ICC standards for the Graphics and Arts printing industry. :Grin: Those complicated chromatic adaption transforms, color constancy transform, perceptual color appearance models beyond the 1976 CIELab such CIE2002, CIECAM97 whoa... are beyond me already as well as those complicated ink and paper interaction models beyond the basic offset Murray Davies and Yule-Nielsen equations. Heheh! I hope someday I can comeback to study them in detail when I have time.

I believe we know we have already met before. :D


Hi jonkung,

I earned this knowledge from gretagmacbeth (now owned by x-rite) where I have certifications on Pressroom, ink formulation, CMS, Profilemaker, Eye-one Pro. I was trained by Kodak Polychrome Graphics ( GCG) in Inkjet Proofing, Certified in EFI bestcolor for inkjet and Certified also in EFI fiery (Toner base). Not to mention BARCO (ESKO) and ECRM CTPs. And I started Photoshop version 1 and others like quarck, freehand. Imagine what mac I am using before. But I started as HELL (heidelberg)scanner colorseparator. Workflow and application is my forte.

And I am proud to say that I am a NOVICE in digital Photography.

Thanks to all of you guys out there.

You too jun, you share it in technical way. I find you a very knowledgeable in cms too.
and thanks for the compliments. I will be conducting a training/seminar for the printer on CMS and print standardization in the offset. Complete workflow, creating and writing good profilesand how to evaluate.

Sorry for advertising boss NICK. This is overkill for photographers anyway. Will make one with your PRINTFIX if you want?

Wow! I think need to meet you and learn from you more about Color science.
If somebody is having a problem with CMS, how much more trouble they will encounter if talk about color appearance. This is the wider picture of color. Yule-nielsen and murray-davis is also adopted by macbeth for dot measurement. I got those tristimulus values way back macbeth, a division of kolmorgen. I think I also need to go back to color science. But there is more money from workflow since digital printing came in.

Just curios where you from?

Frankly I'm not qualified especially those that go beyond the current ISO standards for the printing industry. I believe this http://www.brucelindbloom.com/ contains already most of the computations that is within the scope of ICC and ISO. The learning is so vast and really has to get a course there. http://vision.psych.umn.edu/ http://www.cis.rit.edu/people/faculty/fairchild/CAM.html

I'm a freelancer. If i'm not mistaken you should know Mark who bought a Canon laser printer. :)

I am done accessing those sites. RIT may be the best. It is no need to go there since there are books that shows the calculations. If someone went to college who knows calculus and physics, it would be easier to understand and it is easier to identify where is the problem.

I remember you, you are the consultant of Mark Ang. You are smart guy there. I think they are going to buy one more, is it?

Color matching and color models are more on vector and matrix math and geometry. Besides theories plenty of reading on standards as well as experience. You've won over ***** laser because of the excellent setup configuration being put in the EFI software despite his initial plan for the the higher dpi. He is looking for something that can print on cloth using laser transfers.



I am done accessing those sites. RIT may be the best. It is no need to go there since there are books that shows the calculations. If someone went to college who knows calculus and physics, it would be easier to understand and it is easier to identify where is the problem.

I remember you, you are the consultant of Mark Ang. You are smart guy there. I think they are going to buy one more, is it?

Hi Ric,

Pro 9000 is dye base ink and Pro 9500 is pigment ink "Lucia ink"

FYI!

thanks mr basilio. by the way, will you help me on my inquiry too? please...

hello!
sirs, i have a question about my print outs from dye based ink(epson rx610,6-colour) and pigment based(epson c90,4-colour)

photos from epson rx610 are more glossy,more alive (almost photo lab quality) compared to epson c90,using the same paper(PHOTO PLUS JAPAN glossy paper from DATAMAX) anybody of you sirs know how to make the c90 produce a glossy print-outs?

hello!
sirs, i have a question about my print outs from dye based ink(epson rx610,6-colour) and pigment based(epson c90,4-colour)

photos from epson rx610 are more glossy,more alive (almost photo lab quality) compared to epson c90,using the same paper(PHOTO PLUS JAPAN glossy paper from DATAMAX) anybody of you sirs know how to make the c90 produce a glossy print-outs?

This is a little bit technical, glossy is the scattering of light, it may be came from a little varnish from ink or the from the particles of dyes. If the resin and pigment are identical, scattering or diffuse of light wont be much and it will not look glossy. Since the 610 has 6 colors, it must have a wider gamut. The compatibility is another thing, absorption and refraction of light on the materials makes some difference on the appearance.

Hope this explain!

I beg to differ. I think you mean is how to make the c90 produce a more vivid or saturated print-outs. Gloss means specular while matte means diffuse. Glass, mirror are specular because light reflection are directional while cotton, wood are diffused because light are scattered upon return. Your glossy photo papers have both combination of gloss and diffuse that's why it called glossy photo paper while photo/coated inkjet paper on the other hand are almost 100% matte.

For dye vs pigment, in my understanding dye theoretically should be more vivid because colored dye ink particles are smaller than colored ink pigment particles. You have more particles per area on paper with dye than with pigment or higher densities contents on paper therefore also more vivid/colorful/saturated.

Although you cannot beat dye inks in colorfulness you can however maximized your pigment either by: 1) use bright white paper substrates such as those with optical brighteners 2) view them under higher intensity light while dim your surroundings 3) view them under daylight colored light sources than fluorescent sources 4) using gloss paper to trick the eye into seeing more contrast in your images



hello!
sirs, i have a question about my print outs from dye based ink(epson rx610,6-colour) and pigment based(epson c90,4-colour)

photos from epson rx610 are more glossy,more alive (almost photo lab quality) compared to epson c90,using the same paper(PHOTO PLUS JAPAN glossy paper from DATAMAX) anybody of you sirs know how to make the c90 produce a glossy print-outs?

Thanks for correcting me Jon,
I have mixed the particles and medium refractive index light transmission with reflection.

thanks po sa good info mga sirs.i'll be changing my photo paper,going to try mitsubishi. tnx po ulit..

You are welcome. BTW here are the properties for paper http://www.ppfrs.org.uk/ianson/paper_physics/Optical_Properties.html and a theoretical model on ink and paper interaction. http://www.ppfrs.org.uk/ianson/paper_physics/Kubelka-Munk.html

Actually you have a point except maybe you mixup the terms gloss and diffuse . Your explanation is under the Kubelka-Munk theory. The simplest is the Murray Davies equation where refraction and absorption are negligible such as in offset C2S process. Yule Nielsen equation (modification of Murray Davies with the n factor) as well as Kubelka-Munk accounts for refraction and absorption within the substrate or optical dot gain such as newsprint and inkjet process.

Thanks for correcting me Jon,
I have mixed the particles and medium refractive index light transmission with reflection.