I hope to continue the interesting thread started by Louie A and continued by Eric Dino, Gabriel Ang, John Edward and others about having a Rate Guide for photography in the Philippines.

While I am totally for having such a rate guide, I feel that such a guide is irrelevant if it doesn't relate to a certain standard. The rate guide as Louie pointed out should have different tiers for levels of professional expertise. The issue here is, how do define skill level. This can be very subjective.

I, for one, hope to see a real serious photography association started wherein photographers need to take tests, and join contests to garner points. The points system will determine the level of skill each photographer has achieved. This concept is similar to what the PPA in the United States is doing. It costs money and it takes time to get points as a PPA member because you have to pay contest or assignment fees and you actually have to take the time to photograph special assignments just to gain points. But in the end, you get a ranking which you can use to show clients your proficiency in photography.

I believe this is the best way to go around creating a rate guide for photography in the Philippines. I hope to hear other opinions on this matter.

Hi Sir Nick,

I agree with you. However, due to the economic conditions of the country only a few can afford to do so but there is a solution. We can get sponsors or set aside 10% of our income just to get a rating for our professional services. It will really take time but what is important is that it has already been started and we should all keep the ball rolling until we reach our goal of professionalizing the industry. Best Regards.

Eric,

I beg to differ. Such an association does not need to be expensive to join. Contests can be done free of charge. Its a matter of getting the right people together to make sure it happens. Yes, there will be some costs involved and not everyone will be able to join or would care to join. The association has to evolve though as the force of photography. And when it does, new photographers will aspire to enter. I'd be willing to promote this fully with the magazine.

Sounds interesting for a newbie like me, I'd be willing to join but of course if the fee is justifiable. The point system is a good idea for leveling and the association must push through some certification of digital photographers and establish an industry standard with regards to digital photography here in our country.

Sau

While I am totally for having such a rate guide, I feel that such a guide is irrelevant if it doesn't relate to a certain standard. The rate guide as Louie pointed out should have different tiers for levels of professional expertise. The issue here is, how do define skill level. This can be very subjective.


Yes, that is one of the difficulties we are facing as we try to work out the process of coming up with a rate guide. How do we determine levels of expertise to base the rates on. What further confuses things is that there are those that are experts with long experience in their field yet charge moderately or even low, while there are some talented newcomers that get to charge even higher than them. Then there are those also those that get to charge really high due to high visibility via the press, connections they are affiliated with etc.

An association would be great. Although getting that going will truly be a monumental task as there are many photographers who are against it for one reason or another. When the idea was brought up a year and a half ago to 25 pros in a meeting, the majority preferred a loose consultative body than an actual association. Yet the need for one is truly great if we want to professionalize the industry. Maybe if the practical benefits of such an association becomes more evident, then photographers would be more open and supportive of the idea.

An association would be great. Although getting that going will truly be a monumental task as there are many photographers who are against it for one reason or another. When the idea was brought up a year and a half ago to 25 pros in a meeting, the majority preferred a loose consultative body than an actual association. Yet the need for one is truly great if we want to professionalize the industry. Maybe if the practical benefits of such an association becomes more evident, then photographers would be more open and supportive of the idea.

Personally, I don't really give a sh*t about the pros who wouldn't favor this type of association. People will always have comments. If we listen to all of them nothing will get done. If you are adamant about setting up this association, let me know because I'd like to work with you and set it up. Monumental yes. Impossible, no way. Many of those same photographers told us that a photography magazine wouldn't work in this country We didn't listen to any of them. Its just a matter of doing it and doing it right. Who cares what people think. I believe there are more photographers who would support such a movement than not.

I totally agree with Mr. Tuason. Although I consider myself an advance amateur, nevertheless I've been around for more than a decade in the industry and I still have to see a proper avenue of implementing such a move. If ever you need my services let me know.

In Kevin Costner's the "field of dreams"...i was inspired with what he said (and i forgot if he's the one who uttered that word) "build it and they will come"...others will say you can't make it..."build it and they will come": :Thinking:

Hi Guys,

I believe that anything is possible with the right explanation. There are people who are hesistant for the simple fact that they don't know the mission and objective of the association. Some are also afraid that they can no longer justify their rates that will cost you an arm and leg. What I like in Golf is that there is a handicap system. You can only play with players with the same level of handicap during tournaments. In the Fashion Industry, you can distinguish the professional models from the ones who are just new by the way they walk, talk and act. Since Photography is a different field and is both subjective and relative at the same time, the safest way to have a rate guide is through skills rating. We can set up a meeting per category, say let's meet first with Advertising Photographers then followed by Sports Photographers, Wedding Photographers etc. I agree with Sir Nick that it doesn't have to be expensive, we can always be resourceful and use our existing facilities, connections and make X-deals with Sponsors like Fuji, Kodak, Canon, Nikon etc. It's about time that we professionalize the industry in order to avoid unfair competition and maintain high standard of work. Like doctors, lawyers and engineers, we should also have an ID or license duly certified and accredited by a regulating commission if an association is not feasible at the moment. Everything is possible, the forum can even be a tool in gathering data. :-).

You may invite John Chua to help out organize, if i'm not mistaken they did something like a photographers guild in the past. I'm sure he can guide us through:)

Hi Nick/ Louie,

If you need a someone from the amateur league I'd like to volunteer. Whether it's me or someone with better credentials, I believe it's essential for someone to represent the non-pro digital photographer community to lend the initiative better credibility and objectivity. :)

similar to the barangay system, we do have various camera clubs caters to the needs of different photographers. mostly for learning, sharing and making new friends.

on top of those camera clubs, you have the FPPF, which is like the umbrella organization of those clubs. meron silang monthly contests, on the spot contests and photographer/ club of the year. plus the annual photoworld manila.

its a very casual way of learn, and sharing (if not through web forums like this) with fellow photographers.

maybe its a good venue for some of you..

I was reading the thread and just a thought... If ever there would be a body that would standardize rates for photographers,but not all photographers would be a member of it, there would always be photographers who will charge lower than the standard rate. Looking at Philippines' economic status, people will always look for a cheaper alternative unlike the US where quality always comes first. .... then we're back to square one. The only difference is there are elite photographers and there are budget photographers....... Just like doctors, they charge professional fees depending on what room you check in. The private rooms charge higher the ward charge lower.

just a thought......

and newer photographers comes in everyday will always look for ways to break-in to the industry.. ie: offer much lower price for a gig.

so how do you quantify/qualify the skill of a photographer?

a committee or board will determine if you are or are not skilled enough.

a committee or board will determine if you are or are not skilled enough.

and who determines who is on that commitee? does one person know more than another how to assemble a softbox properly? when it comes to the photos themselves, wouldnt it still involve a lot of subjective opinions?

a committee or board will determine if you are or are not skilled enough.

wow.. you serious?

:) If all this planning is set into motion... I just hope that the committee or board members that would lead the said organization would be fair, just and deserving for the position... I hope there won't be any seniority or any prevention for fresh new talents to be in the board itself... I hope such judges or OICs would not be purists that may lead to unreasonably strict verdicts in determining the skill level of participating entrants... and so on and so forth... :Grin:

I'm kinda glad to see that this thread got a new lease on life and is still going. If my time wasn't so occupied running the magazine, I would love to dedicate my resources to a project like this. The idea would be to mimic what other groups or associations around the world are doing---mainly certifcation programs.

Yes, you would need a committee or board to analyze skill but this is done under contests or submission entries focusing on certain aspects of photography. You will then get a score for the project that you entered. The more points you accumulate, the higher your status goes within this association. Its something like this forum where you see people with little posts called Junior Members and those with more Senior Members. Once you accumulate a certain number of points in the association, your title changes.

You will never be able to stop new photographers or non-association members from underpricing. That is not the desire of this proposed Association. The Association is set up so that its members can justify higher pricing for their photography services. It can also act as peace of mind for a client knowing that a photographer who has a title from this Association is a competent one, having passed tests.

This is an extreme example: You are looking to hire a top manager for your business. In walk two applicants. Both are college grads, one graduated Ateneo (nothing against Ateneo guys) and one graduated from Harvard. The Harvard grad is only asking P25,000 more per month salary. You have the budget to spend. Who do you hire for the job? Odds are the Harvard grad because of the pedigree.

I wouldn't hire anyone of the two...I would hire the one from DLSU...heheheh

On a serious note, I think that the best thing and easier thing to do is to set a pricing bracket wherein there would be at least a minimum charge or price on per project basis. Everyone should be professional enough not to undercharge below the agreed pricing bracket in order to protect the interests of the industry as well as the photographers. The pricing bracket should be determined by a committee and then this would be dessiminated through proper channels.

This is what I have in mind.....example.....

for WEDDINGS Tiered Pricing Bracket

Class A Php 75k - unlimited
Class B 60K - 70K
Class C 45k - 55k
Class D 25k - 40k
so on and so forth

With this pricing bracket every photographer would rate his skills or what he could offer using this pricing bracket. If i so decide to classify myself as a class a photographer and charge 90k for a project and my clients also decide to contact other class A photographers, with the prices amost similar to one another then clients will now decide based on the individual style of the photographer according to their portfolios.

Agreeing on a minimum pricing bracket would somehow help all photographers not to be underpaid on certain projects.

Just my .10 cents..........

I wouldn't hire anyone of the two...I would hire the one from DLSU...heheheh

On a serious note, I think that the best thing and easier thing to do is to set a pricing bracket wherein there would be at least a minimum charge or price on per project basis. Everyone should be professional enough not to undercharge below the agreed pricing bracket in order to protect the interests of the industry as well as the photographers. The pricing bracket should be determined by a committee and then this would be dessiminated through proper channels.

This is what I have in mind.....example.....

for WEDDINGS Tiered Pricing Bracket

Class A Php 75k - unlimited
Class B 60K - 70K
Class C 45k - 55k
Class D 25k - 40k
so on and so forth

With this pricing bracket every photographer would rate his skills or what he could offer using this pricing bracket. If i so decide to classify myself as a class a photographer and charge 90k for a project and my clients also decide to contact other class A photographers, with the prices amost similar to one another then clients will now decide based on the individual style of the photographer according to their portfolios.

Agreeing on a minimum pricing bracket would somehow help all photographers not to be underpaid on certain projects.

Just my .10 cents..........

The example you gave is more or less what the rate guide is trying to achieve.
We are working on it.
The difference is that unlike having an association to rate the photographer, as suggested by some here, the rate guide is anticipating self evalution. Its up to the individual photographer where he thinks he ranks. In the end, its the clients who decide if you are worth your rate.

a committee or board will determine if you are or are not skilled enough.

I see too many problems with a committee to decide what ranking any photographer should be.
1. politics, politics, politics - will the members of such committee be professional photographers? If so, how will you be able to safeguard that their appraisal of photographers won't be colored by their own interests? The committee, sensing a strong new popular competition can easily manipulate the assessment so that the outcome strategically favors them.
2. who gets to be on the committee? who chooses? what basis?
3. what is the basis of rating or evaluating a photographer? technicalities? artistry? etc. Since appraising photography is largely a matter of taste, it is impossible to be unbiased. For example, if you are on the committee and are schooled in traditional portraiture and you have to assess an avant garde portrait artist breaking all the rules yet is much sought after, do you judge his work by the traditions and rules you are accustomed to? Do you valuate him by how popular he is? etc.
I know of a very sought after photographer who is booked left and right by the big advertising agencies and he doesn't use a light meter - does he get a lower ranking due to his lack of technical know-how, lack of skill? I have already heard another photographer commenting that not using a light meter is not very professional for a big paid shoot. Is that right or wrong? Whatever the case, is that also a basis for judging?

Talking about "Association," what I really want to see someday is a Photography Center owned and managed by photographers (not by a single business-minded photographer, but rather by a huge organization of photographers (cooperative style). The PHOTOCenter will be financed by all the member-photographers (locally and internationally), ownership/investment can be in the form of stocks.

Of course there will be standardization in pricing of photographic services by the PHOTOCenter. Nevertheless, it wouldn't matter much since everybody will earn no matter how much each photography project costs. And such pricing will no longer be the main focus of the PHOTOCenter.

For a start, the PHOTOCenter will revolve around the following services:
- sales/marketing of photographic items (cameras, accessories, consumables, etc.)
- photo processing/printing/framing/multimedia preparation
- training and skills development, gearing towards formation of a photo university
- service center for all major brands of photo equipment
- photo exhibitions (locally and internationally)
- act as one-stop-shop for all photography needs of individuals/companies
- clientele will be defined locally and internationally, will definitely compete globally

I know it's not easy to comprehend such idea, most especially if someone is coming from a capitalistic nature of business. And I don't think Filipino photographers are ready yet for such grand scheme... the way I look at it, most photographers are mainly focussed on their self-development and gaining income ($$$) for their own businesses. Kanya-kanya pa rin tayo... I wouldn't expect that a high-income city-based photographer-A would consider entertaining the idea of joining forces with a provincial-based photographer-B (tambay sa simbahan), and share income and ownership of a business. It would require a great deal of paradigm shift for this moment to happen.

Halos nakakasiguro ako na ang mga unang hindi papayag na mangyari ang ganitong sitwasyon ay 'yung mga negosyanteng photographer na medyo nakaka-angat na sa kanilang propesyon at kabuhayan. Ganoon din ang mga matatandang photographer na nakatambay sa mga simbahan at eskwelahan, ang lakas-lakas ng kanilang "resistance" na makipag-isa sa makabagong teknolohiya. Naalala ko tuloy yung effort ng mga OFWs na magtayo ng sariling banko sa Pilipinas for purposes of handling their remittances... ang lakas ng resistance ng well-established banking sector mismo kasi alam nila maaagawan sila ng kita... hindi rin gaanong sinuportahan ng gobyerno at ng mga mambabatas dahil alam nilang potential source of wealth and power ito na wala naman sa kontrol nila.

In the end, I am not losing hope that such dream would come true someday. Sabagay, libre naman ang managinip kaya sinasamantala ko na. And if we really look at detailed facts, makikita natin na talagang posible ang ganitong pangarap... ilang photographers meron ngayon sa Pilipinas + working abroad (tulad ko)? Let's say we are about 5,000 Filipino photographers (conservative estimate)... we pledge PHP5,000 each... it would yield an initial investment of PHP25M. Siguro naman, pwedeng-pwede na palaguin ang halagang iyan lalong-lalo na kung pagsama-samahin ang galing at talino ng mga Pinoy Photographers na magagaling sa negosyo.

I am about to retire from working overseas... I know I will be facing a difficult life when I get back home to the Philippines, for the simple reason that I got uprooted from my beloved homeland for a very long time. Pangarap naming mga OFWs... sana meron kaming uuwian na pamilya at komunidad na nakahandang tanggapin kami muli... hindi dahil sa aming mga pasalubong at $-remittances... bagkus ay dahil sa tunay na pagka-kapatiran at pagkakaisa bilang mga Pilipino.

O s'ya... tama na ang drama at baka magi pa itong script ng tele-serye... anyone interested in pursuing such vision of having a grand PHOTOCenter, or any group already entertaining the formation of such photography cooperative venture, kindly inform me and I would gladly share my throughts, and initial investment as well. Let's talk and start the ball rolling!

This is an extreme example: You are looking to hire a top manager for your business. In walk two applicants. Both are college grads, one graduated Ateneo (nothing against Ateneo guys) and one graduated from Harvard. The Harvard grad is only asking P25,000 more per month salary. You have the budget to spend. Who do you hire for the job? Odds are the Harvard grad because of the pedigree.

again this is going to be very subjective, you cannot rank photography skills like you could a programmer.. could you say that one artist is actually better than another? Certified to operate a leaf aptus.. sure.. certified to open up a porty pack yes.. certified to take a photograph. no way. im sorry but it will just depend on the client on the end, on the client's taste and the photographer's taste.. the committee members themselves could know everything there is to know about photography, and know everyone there is to know in industry and yet could have bad taste..
the rate guide as i guide is very feasible, the association isnt impossible but just is not practical..

Wow... In the near future... You have to have solid credentials in order to practice photography as a profession... Having the equipment and skill will not be enough anymore... wow :(

@ Pat
Everyone has their own opinions here. I prefer to have an association that determines skill by proving your talent in varyng aspects of photography. I am not saying that one photographer is better than another because a rank beginner with a good eye may easily out do a seasoned veteran. The idea again is to justify your worth to clients. Its the clients decision if they want to hire someone else but at least you can say that you passed all the tests of the association and can price your services at a certain level.

And of course you are not going to have one committee solely deciding on how to rate a photographers entries. The idea is to set up a democracy with checks and balances in place.

@Earl-- again not true. Anyone can claim to be a photographer. Just buy a camera. The idea here is to show clients that since you have passed certain levels of criteria that you are in the right to charge a certain fee.

At the end of the day, anyone can do whatever they want to do. I feel though that there is weight in numbers. Get enough people into a solid association with no other motives (such as mentioned by Jose Deluna) and you can get things done. Pass around a rate card and say that here is a standard rate for photography and I fall within it. The customer will tell you, what qualifications do you have?

Maybe my previous posting about having a grand PHOTOCenter for the photographers and by the photographers is really a far-fetched idea (as in suntok sa buwan). I think the issue on pricing rates only becomes an issue for photographers who are really into the business (on a capitalist point of view). I wouldn't even consider pricing standardization as form of protection for the photography industry (whose industry are we talking about here?). Hangga't hindi ko nakikita ang partisipasyon ng mga maliliit na maniniyot (photographers in Ilonggo dialect), hindi ko masasabing eto na ang samahan o asosasyon ng mga Pilipinong photographers.

We are lucky that we can share our views through numerous forums, eh paano naman yung mga kasamahan natin sa industriya na wala man lang computer o panahon para mag-internet? Hindi ko sila masisisi kung bakit mababa ang singil nila sa wedding coverages... last time I checked in Iloilo, yung mga maliliit na photographers ay sumisingil lamang ng PHP6,000-10,000 for a wedding coverage... and yet they can manage to provide good quality products. When we talk of pricing standardization, ibig bang sabihin nito ay isasawalang-bahala natin ang kalidad ng trabaho at serbisyo ng mga maliliit na photographers, in a way... balak ba nating patayin ang ikinabubuhay ng mga maliliit na photographers? Try to observe numerous topics in this forum... we talk about upgrading equipment by the hundreds of thousand pesos, we share ideas on how to make clients pay 100K PHP for a project... meron bang nag-isip o nagtanong man lang tungkol sa kalagayan ng mga maliliit nating kasamahan sa industriya at kung paano natin sila matutulungan?

I, for one, am planning to gather old-timer photographers in Iloilo next time I go home. I will convince them to upgrade their skills (e.g. switching to digital format, learning to use PC's, editing in Photoshop. etc.); I will offer my services for free, probably give them free training (kahit sa baranggay hall lang pwede na). If time permits, I will convince them to organize themselves into a formidable association, or perhaps transform the existing Iloilo Photographers' Cooperative into a more skilled and technologically capable organization. I believe that if they are given proper training, good organizational structure and management, and financing support to procure digital camera equipment, kakayanin nilang makipag-sabayan sa sinasabi nating industriya. Sa tingin ko higit na makatotohanan ang pangarap na ito... It's also short of saying that most of you can take care of the upper-bracket of the Philippine photography industry (Class A), some of us will take care of the bottom-part (Class D or E)... who knows, maybe later on we'll be able to form a much appropriate and socially-responsive association.

@ Jose
Very well stated. If this association were to materialize, it will have social issues in its agenda also. Open for everyone and open to help those that are not as unfortunate.

@ Pat
Everyone has their own opinions here. I prefer to have an association that determines skill by proving your talent in varyng aspects of photography. I am not saying that one photographer is better than another because a rank beginner with a good eye may easily out do a seasoned veteran. The idea again is to justify your worth to clients. Its the clients decision if they want to hire someone else but at least you can say that you passed all the tests of the association and can price your services at a certain level.

And of course you are not going to have one committee solely deciding on how to rate a photographers entries. The idea is to set up a democracy with checks and balances in place.


proving talent? im sorry nick, the only justification a photographer really needs is his/her portfolio. an association with tests? i could care less about what another photographer thinks i can or cannot do. I do care about the audience of any of my photographs or the paying client. let's say you do put up an association, il put one up too, so will the next guy and all we'l have is groups bragging about how one is better than another..
in the photography business the clients dont read your resume and see that you are certified or studied here or there, they just look at the pictures.
in an ideal world a democracy with checks and balances would be great. in reality louie is right about politics that will come into play.

my opinion on an association like this, unless its required by law..
is that it just takes one person not to join and being certified can be looked upon as nothing more than having joined a snotty camera club (with a sticker most probably)

Like I said, everyone is open to their opinion on this. You may feel a certain way while I believe in another. We are not saying that this association is the end all or be all of Philippine photography. All we are saying is that if you do care to join, you will have to obtain points by entering contests to improve your title. This title system is simply to tell potential clients that you do have enough photography experience to justify the price that you are asking.

This concept works very nicely in the US under an associaton called the PPA. They have a certificaton program for their own association that says "PPA Certified. Many well-known photographers are PPA members. I'm sure you have heard of them. You can even be a PPA member if you want, but you will have to undergo their requirements and not everyone can do it. Its not easy and its also costly. So why not set up our own PPA in the Philippines? I think it can be done and can be executed properly.

hi. i'm not a pro, but simply a hobbyist. but i do like to put in my two cents' worth into this discussion. from what i understand, your proposed rate guide will be like a pricing guide for photography services. before doing so, do consider the economics of this thing: pricing is very much dependent on the law of supply and demand. OPEC (Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries) can influence, or even dictate, the price of crude oil. why? because it holds the supply of that commodity. pldt used to dictate the price of landline phone services, because it was the only one available then. now pldt can't do this because a customer has choices--bayantel, globelines, go mobile, etc. a photographers association can, at best, professionalize the conduct of its members, improve on the skills of its members, but cannot set the price for the services of its members unless it lures into its fold ALL photographers doing photography as a business, and with all members vowing to abide by the rules and regulations of that association--one of these being the rates. given the market we have here now, where there are hundreds of photographers seeking a piece of the action, price setting looks impossible. with so much supply (of photographers), there will always be predatory pricing (some will charge really low, or squeeze their profit margin), just to get a photo job. but what quality of service will that client get? that is the risk a customer faces. but sometimes, a high price doesn't necessarily equate to quality service. please do form an association, but i hope with the main objective of professionalizing conduct and improving skills. that, i believe, will be a good starting point. and do allow aspiring photographers or even hobbyists to join, even as associate members.

Hello Raul,

Not quite what I am trying to say. I am saying that you form an association such as the PPA in the US not so that you can come up with a standardized rate guide. I am saying that you form an association so that you show to clients that you are a photography specialist. There is a big difference between the two.

Assuming you are part of this association, it is still up to you what price to charge for your services. If you want to go down to predatory pricing you can. By being part of a well-recognized association that has a solid Certification system, you can simply justify your price to your client.

Lets assume that this Association has been around for a few years and has become well respected. You are a member and your competitor is not. You both go for an advertising contract. Your portfolios look similar to the clients eyes. You both are pricing the same for the contract. Your competitor has been taking photos for two years, you have been longer. You show that you are a member of the Association with a Certification and have a title of ----. Who gets the job? Odds are you will because Certification shows experience and competence.

Lets assume that this Association has been around for a few years and has become well respected. You are a member and your competitor is not. You both go for an advertising contract. Your portfolios look similar to the clients eyes. You both are pricing the same for the contract. Your competitor has been taking photos for two years, you have been longer. You show that you are a member of the Association with a Certification and have a title of ----. Who gets the job? Odds are you will because Certification shows experience and competence.


I beg to differ, there are so many other parameters involved in choosing a supplier for a certain job, not just who is "certified" by a governing body. You have to consider clients preference, budget, who's studio is closest to the agency and / or client. Is Agency's team happy working with supllier, etc etc.

I doubt that particiapting in contests every month will ever prepare you for shooting in the real world.

Hi Nick,

I can see how something like this can be beneficial to both clients and pros. The idea itself is sound. While I don't think I'll ever be a pro, I'd like to contribute anyway.

I think we'll need to shy away from judging the creative aspect of a member/applicant's work as this is too subjective.

But you can give out points on the technical through tests in such a way that it at least ensures that the client is taking on a photographer that knows his stuff, enough to get from ground zero to vision A (which is very much client dependent). Going a step further, points on workflow will also be needed to ensure that at least a client is guaranteed a modicum of organization skills from the "pro". Along these lines, having a studio with proper equipment and storage/backup devices also give the "pro" the extra "pogi" points.

It's pretty much like how ISO9001 works. It guarantees you that the company has the basics down pat but it's not going to guarantee you that you'll make tons of money once you have it. But its the basics or the lack of it that screws everything up in most cases so an insurance of sorts right off the bat will give your client a certain level of comfort that you're not going to, say, blow the highlights of a certain product (I'm winging it at this point but you get the drift).

Going up the ladder, the criteria can then be modified to include years of experience, associations joined/chaired, number of clients, awards, testimonials, number of "L" lenses (Just kidding) etc.

Hope this thread prospers :)

Raul, Thanks. The info on ISO9001 is really a good read. :)
For those of you who want to check it out in plain english... Click here (http://www.praxiom.com/iso-9001.htm).

Hi Earl, not sure if it's a "good read". Hehehe : )

Hi Earl, not sure if it's a "good read". Hehehe : )

:D Not a hundred percent applicable of course, however for starters... we can pick out some very good guide points...

Hi! I am a newbee in this forum, but if you plan to invite John Chua, I woul like to suggest to ask John to bring his wife Harvey Chua, especially in the field of pricing and administrating finances in the photography business.

THis forum is very interesting.

Hi! I am a newbee in this forum, but if you plan to invite John Chua, I woul like to suggest to ask John to bring his wife Harvey Chua, especially in the field of pricing and administrating finances in the photography business.

THis forum is very interesting.

Hi, sorry that I just read this post. Bobby, thanks for thinking I can be of help. I have actually offered to help - in whatever way I can - help out with these issues of forming associations, doing accreditations or certification programs, establishing pricing guidelines, etc. In short, anything about the business of photography.

We are members of Professional Photographers of America, and I join the forum of Advertising Photographers of America, pinoyphotographers, and this forum. In addition, I am a member of the Advertising Suppliers Association of the Philippines while our four photographers are all members of the Advertising Photographers of the Philippines.

I am very familiar with the problems and challenges of forming and sustaining orgs. However, I know that nothing is impossible, so I am still optimistic (although once in a while, I do get discouraged).

If you wish to have a round table discussion on these issues, I would like to offer our place as venue, and we can host dinner for some ten guys who are serious about helping out. This can be a core group, and the group can expand later on, and maybe branch out to encourage the formation of other groups - wedding photographers, advertising photographers, portrait photographers, fashion, photojournalists, travel etc.

I think the main reason why the plea for a pricing guideline (Thanks to Louie who wrote a well-thought of position paper) has not taken off is because it is addressed to everyone, and we are all in different fields and in different levels of involvement with the business of photography. Everyone is saying many different things, and they are all correct in what they are saying, but these may be true only for themselves, or those similarly situated but may not apply to the others. Maybe we can form a few core groups, and try to focus on getting people who share the same expertise and specializations. These would be just starting points. Later, we can collate all the different works from the different groups for a grand Philippine Source of Photography Pricing or something like that.

Let me know if you wish to accept my invitation for a round table discussion. Just pm me at harvey@adphoto.com.ph

Regards to everyone. Don't be discouraged.
Harvey

Thank you for an interesting thread, Harvey. I know you and John's expertise in the business will be a big help to most members here.

Maybe a qualification test such as the one we have in the U.S. would help in determining the level of competency. The certifying body is composed of professionals in different photographic specialization (some practicing photographers and some are educators).

Here is the link to the association that I'm a member of...

http://certifiedphotographer.com/i4a/pages/index.cfm?pageid=3289

Maybe we are all too busy now to work on setting industry rates, but is this something we can calendar for early next year? It is very important that we don't forget something as important as this task, although it may not seem urgent at the moment. Maybe we will be fractious and diorganized in the beginning, and maybe we won't get much support for this effort right away but soon we will make progress, and as Ross C. has said, "...they will come."

Thank you for an interesting thread, Harvey. I know you and John's expertise in the business will be a big help to most members here.

Not my thread, but Nick's. We'd be glad to help any which way we can.

Glad to see that this thread is still alive thanks to Harvey Chua. The point posted by Nick Espino above is what I was trying to refer to in this thread. I personally believe that having a Standardized Rate Guide for photography services in this country is a futile attempt because no one will follow it. I also think that clients will use it against photographers who want to charge more for their services.

My proposal is for a CERTIFIED PROFESSIONAL program that the PPA has or something similar to Nick Espino's Certified Photographer. How to become certified is another discussion but at least those who do become certified can justify pricing.

I beg to differ, there are so many other parameters involved in choosing a supplier for a certain job, not just who is "certified" by a governing body. You have to consider clients preference, budget, who's studio is closest to the agency and / or client. Is Agency's team happy working with supllier, etc etc.

I doubt that particiapting in contests every month will ever prepare you for shooting in the real world.


This is a late response to Toto's comment. Being certified does not mean a client will choose you over another photographer. Its really up to the client what photographer they want to choose. Certification simply adds credibility and allows you to charge more for your work. Many people on this forum contemplate on making a living from photography. Keep the prices as low as it is now and its not worth it for many.

Why don't we start with the most basic requirement for working on an agreement - a definition of terms? The Advertising Photographers of America (APA) worked on that project and they have a site where you can search for a term and get a definition.

Over here, there is not even agreement as to how to call what we charge for.
a. Do we call them layouts? set ups? poses? shots?
b. We are also not in agreement as to what to submit to our clients - raw files? jpeg? Tiff? layers? flattened files? contact prints (inkjet? dyesub? photographic?)?
c. What about how much to submit - all? 3 of each set up? 5 of each set up?
d. Do we submit retouched or unretouched? To what extent do we retouch?
e. what variations are included in the package, or do we charge extra for variations? what is considered a variation?

We have a multitude of basic questions to answer before we can even start tackling certifications, rates, terms and conditions.

If I were a client, i would really be confused because photographers can't seem to agree on how to define their terms. How can we agree on rates when we can't even agree on definitions?

I know that a lot of people are wishing that they had rate or pricing guidelines (maybe not standardized rates) but we are getting confused even before we start having any serious discussions, so why not begin at the very beginning?

P.S. Those interested in the business of advertising photography can find a great resource in the APAnet forum. It's free to join. Google Advertising Photographers of America or APA and you'll find it.

this might help:

http://www.asmp.org/publications/asmp.php

I'm here to help! Anything that needs a database and a web interface, let me know!

My proposal is for a CERTIFIED PROFESSIONAL program that the PPA has or something similar to Nick Espino's Certified Photographer. How to become certified is another discussion but at least those who do become certified can justify pricing.

I agree, certification through a commission or a governing body, which will approve and give licenses to prof photographers, (just a learning semi-pro here, in no way am I an expert but it's really hard to compete w/ exeedingly low bids), a simple test such as presenting a portfolio would do, no need for written exams just a sample to show the quality of work would do and a signed agreement to follow standard pricing.

Some issues, like pricing and photographers' rights, are too big for one individual photographer to tackle. There is really a need for photographers to unite.

In the U.S., they have started to see that these issues even go beyond national boundaries, especially now that the internet has made it possible for anyone in the world to join the fray.

They have taken the lead, first and foremost, by coming up with a glossary of photographic business terms, so that photographers can speak the same language, and not be confused when they enter the market place. This glossary is available, it is free and it is easy to use as it is keyword-searchable.

They are also working on defining terms and conditions for pricing. It is not that they will set the prices, but that what needs to be done and what we are delivering to our clients are better defined.

Those among us who are interested to learn about how to price, what terms and conditions to write in our contracts, how to negotiate, etc. can get a lot of information from the Advertising Photographers of America net (APAnet) as well as from the PLUS coalition.

We (Louie Aguinaldo, Nick Tuason and the other photographers who have joined this thread) who are working on improving the business conditions for photographers in the Philippines can pick up from APAnet and the PLUS Coalition. (APAnet is free, but I am still inquiring about membership in the more international PLUS coalition, but use of their "products" like the glossary, is free). Please take advantage of these available resources to help you in your photography business.

Here's a post by Mr. Jeff Sedlik, one of the organizers of the PLUS coalition, which I picked up with permission from the APAnet forum.

During my term as APA President, I engaged in discussion with various
organizations representing artists, clients and stock agencies around the
world. I quickly recognized that the trend away from licensing of limited
rights (and toward work for hire, copyright transfer of copyright, and RF)
was being driven in great measure by a lack of common understanding of
copyright licensing. With every association and every company working from a
different page, and with many artists “winging it” and using different
terminology and different licensing structures, and providing no effective
means for clients to track a license once an image is received, it is no
small wonder that clients demand to own the copyright in images created by
photographers.

I recognized that the only way to address this issue was to circle the
wagons and cooperatively develop a system of international image licensing
standards, and that if the standards were to be broadly accepted and used:
(1) the standards could not be created or maintained by any one trade
association, and (2) the standards could not be created by photographers
alone, but must be created cooperatively by photographers, illustrators,
stock agencies, and their clients, and (3) in an increasingly global
marketplace, the standards must be international.

After completing my term as APA president, I approached Jeffrey Burke of
PACA (the stock agency association), and together we pulled together all of
the trade associations and major industry stakeholders, and founded the PLUS
Coalition as a non-profit umbrella organization, exclusively dedicated to
creating a system of international standards that will simplify the image
licensing process for assignment and stock photography and illustration by
allowing everyone, everywhere to use the same license terminology and
structure, and by creating embeddable, machine readable image licenses so
that anyone in possession of an image will be able to determine the allowed
usage.

As of today, all of the major photography associations, together with
organizations representing illustrators, stock agencies, advertising
agencies, design firms, publishers, artist reps and software companies are
participating. After a two year standards review process, the PLUS standards
were approved by creators, distributors and clients on November 1, 2006, and
unveiled at a launch event at the Photo Expo in New York.

Over the next two months, PLUS is continuously uploading the new standards,
tools and documentation to the PLUS site at www.useplus.org
<http://www.useplus.org/> . PLUS has just uploaded the PLUS Media Selector,
a free tool demonstrating the PLUS licensing menus, which will be built into
licensing applications and forms used by photographers, stock agencies and
their clients. PLUS has also just uploaded the PLUS Decoder, a free tool for
use in decoding PLUS ID codes used to specify media rights. The PLUS Picture
Licensing Glossary was approved in 2005 by all industries, and is available
free on the PLUS website. PLUS has also just published a printed version of
the PLUS Glossary, also available on the PLUS site at nominal cost. A PLUS
License Generator and PLUS License Embedder Tool will be uploaded in the
coming weeks. Photographers and their clients will find PLUS License panels
in Adobe applications in 2007 (Adobe has partially underwritten the
initiative), and PLUS is working with its newest member, Microsoft, to
ensure that PLUS Licenses are viewable by the public in browsers and
business applications as well. PLUS is engaged in discussions Apple and also
with major application developers to ensure that PLUS is available in
software used for image capture, image editing, image output, and image
management.

Beginning in mid 2007, photographers can expect clients to request estimates
using universal PLUS ID codes, and to request that licenses be defined using
the terms listed in standardized PLUS Picture Licensing Glossary and using
the PLUS License Data Format structure. All of these standards are free
resources. In addition to creating and propagating the standards, the
organizations of the PLUS Coalition will broadly distribute educational PLUS
coursepacks to schools that offer courses in photography, illustration,
design, and publishing, allowing students to gain a clear understanding of
image licensing, and to apply that knowledge in their businesses after
entering the workforce.

The PLUS Coalition is *your* organization, operated cooperatively by your
trade associations, all of which have dedicated considerable resources to
the initiative. Over 1000 volunteers from the trade associations have
participated in the creation of PLUS and its standards. The level of
collaboration between the associations is at an all time high, with
additional associations and their members joining every week. PLUS is a
powerful example of what can be accomplished with cooperation and shared
resources.

I welcome any questions about the PLUS initiative.

Jeff Sedlik
www.useplus.org <http://www.useplus.org/>

P.S. from Harvey:
I will be posting this in other photography fora in the Philippines, and to all photography associations I know. Perhaps, members of this forum can help themselves by joining APAnet, the PLUS coalition, and by forwarding this to all the photography clubs that are concerned with the business of photography, and in improving the lot of professional photographers.:)

why dont we have professional photographers examination instead?like bar exam for attorney's.. plus some point system.... not only on skills and knowledge of ocurse th eequipments as well..

why dont we have professional photographers examination instead?like bar exam for attorney's.. plus some point system.... not only on skills and knowledge of ocurse th eequipments as well..

the reason why there are regulations for certain careers ( lawyer, accountants, architects, engineers, physicians ) is because of security / safety / quality & legal implications of hiring such individuals without licenses. I do not see photography in such a category.

Standardization is good in certain cases. But when photography is done more for art sakes, where price isn't the concern, there are no highs or lows. I can do it for free. Tom, dick and harry can charge nothing as well if they decide to. Tom can also decide to price a shoot $1.0M.

I have shot portraits and product advertising for free. sure they are for my friends but I can decide if I will charge them P5.00 for every hour. Who then will prevent me from shooting a piece of chicken on a gold plate If I didn't pass an photographers exam? Will my friends care granting I make them happy with my shots?

I do think that the pricing issues are caused by the cheapo/free photogs. Will photographers be complaining if the pricing for photogs was increasing?
Will there still be a "need" to standardize pricing if the ongoing rate is at 200K regardless of what you are shooting or how many hours etc etc?

On the flip side of things, the consumers then will ask for price standardization as they can't affort photographers anymore. Hell, they can shoot it by themselves. Digital has made photography available to those who can afford a digicam.

question, what if all of us pass the test. What good or bad will come out of it? It will not solve underpricing. it just proves how "good" pinoys are in photography.

I just really hope this materializes soon!! :)

Lawyers, accountants, doctors, engineers, librarians, social workers and a host of other professionals take board, bar or certification exams because the government has minimum requirements for them to prove their capability in these professions. Sometimes, the government acts on its own to regulate certain professions, especially when there are issues of public safety – which is why electricians are licensed (there are also unlicensed ones of course but they cannot sign public documents).

Sometimes, the clamor for licensing comes from the practitioners themselves.

At the moment, the market is confused by hundreds of photographers all hawking their services. Customers find it difficult to tell a good photographer from a bad one. It used to be that they could tell by a photographer’s portfolio or by the equipment he uses (in advertising, a 4x5 camera at least suggested that the photographer is a professional). But nowadays, they can’t even tell if a portfolio is authentic and not just downloaded from the Internet, and there are hundreds of 35mm or sub-35mm digital cameras that photographers all claim to be high-resolution (some are, some aren’t). By the way, we know that plagiarizing portfolios is ethically wrong, but is it illegal? What’s the law on this, does anyone know?

Hopefully :) , out of chaos will come the clamor for order. Whether the power to license or accredit a photographer is vested in the government or a non-governmental body, such as a third party accreditation team (like ISO certification) or a peer-to-peer certification team such as the Professional Photographers of America (PPA), it will be helpful to have some kind of regulatory control over this occupation. Maybe it can be accreditation to establish rank, like in the case of hotels. Or certification to measure proficiencies, like what software developers bestow on those who take their certification tests. AT THE VERY LEAST, A BUSINESS LICENSE! Otherwise, if there is no control whatsoever, then there is disorder in our industry, and we all suffer.:(

Personally, I don't really give a sh*t about the pros who wouldn't favor this type of association. People will always have comments. If we listen to all of them nothing will get done. If you are adamant about setting up this association, let me know because I'd like to work with you and set it up. Monumental yes. Impossible, no way. Many of those same photographers told us that a photography magazine wouldn't work in this country We didn't listen to any of them. Its just a matter of doing it and doing it right. Who cares what people think. I believe there are more photographers who would support such a movement than not.

You are absolutely right sir. We are going to support it 100 percent. I hope that your visions push through because this is long overdue.
If this becomes a reality, we are hoping that "politics" will be set aside.

the thread has been dead for more than a year now. anything happened to the idea of standardization?

the thread has been dead for more than a year now. anything happened to the idea of standardization?

Can we start with standardizing terms? If we worked on prices right away, we might never get anything done.

But if we agreed on, let's say, how to define terms like set ups, layouts, even what a day covers - maybe we can find some initial agreements and then move up to other areas where there is still a lot of confusion - what and how much do we submit to clients.

And finally, even if we don't agree on how much we should charge, we can at least agree on what would or should be our basis for estimating how much we should charge.

Great thread! I'm for the creation of an organization myself, one that would take commercial photographers' interests at heart, mainly, but not limited to, stronger protection from unscrupulous clients. Here's a link I believe to be revealing even if its US based news, aptly titled "Photographers Find Strength in Unity"

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CE6DF1631F937A35754C0A9659582 60

Good morning!

Nice thread indeed.

Why not just create a guild? A guild membership will protect, promote each member. It will be the prestige based on the work/product of the guild that will set the price.

So long as the guild is footed on high standards, clients will eventually seek the services of the guild members. Of course, the guild members are bound by an oath that he will follow the pricing guideline of the craft. What we sell now will be the name of the guild therefore, this guild should be guarded zealously by it's members from unscrupolous wannabees.

It will be like a guild/academy of photographers where each members are measured according to their level of skills, grade A photographers will command the highest price, grade C or D will be the lowest...

A peer review by a critique board will be used to classify what grade level the member will be. Membership acceptance mechanism shall be formulated.

Im just dreaming... hope this sparks a new idea.

money.... hehe.. i hope there would be a clear solution for this soon.

money.... hehe.. i hope there would be a clear solution for this soon.

I personally don't think it's just about money. It's about finding a profession and occupation where we can be happy, respected and fulfilled. If it's only about money, I think there are easier ways to earn money.

Of course, we do need to earn money to put food on the table and take care of other expenses, but at this point in our lives, it would be sad if we're only working for our basic needs.

We went into the business of photography because John's passion is photography. I told him even early on that we could switch to another business if and when he no longer felt this passion - but after 35 years, that passion has not waned.

What we (fellow photographers) are trying to do through this thread is to find some rationale for our business, to define rules of conduct or rules of engagement, to espouse ethics and organize activities to help photographers to better understand the business of photography, so that they don't need to struggle with the confusion that seems to pervade our industry today.

It's a long process, but it's a process that can benefit every photographer who has decided to make photography his profession.

Just to inject a little thought into the thread: I feel that there are 2 aspects on the isssue, photography as a business and photography as an expression or art. There is no issue on the need to put a structure into the practice of a profession such that it evolves into a business venture. However, I hope the sector of those into photography for passion (or hobby simply put), is not forgotten. A lot are into it for years but have no intetion of turning it into a money-making activity. Maybe they have not proggressed into being masters or gurus of the craft over the years but passion nevers ends. Maybe this sector should have place in the guild being conceived. tnx
:)

hi tem (i'm assuming your surname is banaria; forgive me if i'm wrong)

i don't think photography as an art will ever fall in the abyss of nothing :) ... so far there are more photogs i know who shoot for art's sake rather than for money despite that they've been into it for a long time (not that i've been into it for long) ... sure they get commissioned to do a paid shoot every now and then, but it is seldom that they do accept and when they do it's far in between... and also there's no intention of making it into a regular thing for income generation...

i'm quite new to the business of photography, much less in photography itself, so there's not much i can contribute to the effort even if given the opportunity to throw in ideas with the masters and veterans of the business... however, the effort certainly has my support, and i would be willing to submit to these standards once they are defined and submitted to the forum

hi tem (i'm assuming your surname is banaria; forgive me if i'm wrong)

i don't think photography as an art will ever fall in the abyss of nothing :) ... so far there are more photogs i know who shoot for art's sake rather than for money despite that ............... and i would be willing to submit to these standards once they are defined and submitted to the forum

@Martin...
Yes, developments that would lead into the formation of the standards board or guild would defnitely give a boost to the industry and also to its art form. Surely, even the non-professionals or "passionista" will benefit from the structure once it starts to gel. Pls dont get me wrong, am not against the concept. Just that the non-pros be given their share of voice. Putting it simply, maybe a pro and non pro standard can be designed so each has a level to relate to. The pro level standard will give a sense of propriety for charging purposes (if that is the root issue of the discussion). We all have a place here......

btw, you got my name right....
:):):)

"passionista" :)) nice one tem

with your permission i'll be using that term vis a vis fashionista :)

A friend who's in Japan and a member here just shared this in another forum...it mentions how the photography biz in japan operates:

the topic was about comparing western photography quality with local work..
---------------

When it comes to fashion photography, ibang iba talaga.

In Japan, it is a must for a pro fashion photographer to have a medium format camera ( a requirement i learned recently) when i tried to apply to an agency. Since 90% of the published photographers here belong to an agency (di lang model may agency dito) Salang sala yung mga photographers nila and since the photography rates here have "baselines" the clients choose the one with the best port and best equipment since they will be paying the same amount.

40Ds, 5Ds, Mark IIIs (counterpart D300, D3s) are for serious hobbyists. I can see people on the metro carry this type of DSLRs *teenagers to seniors and treat these cameras ala P&S cameras they toy around with

I guess, sa pinas we are just starting out sa photography kung baga infancy period. We don't even have an internationally known master photographer (closest na siguro si Gary Fong since mukhang chinoy hehehe). The best or at least the most sought after photographers locally have limited ports (don't get me wrong, they are good) but their ports pale in comparison to Dave Hill or other commercial photographers abroad.

Maybe its a collective effort, if there is a boost iin the industry, eventually talent would develop. US, France, Japan - these are widely developed countries. Photographers work as photographers - nothing more. Kaya siguro they get to concentrate on their craft.

Anyways, Eventually may lalabas ring ala Ansel Adams 10years from now (hopefully)

PS - one thing i noticed, parang iba yung quality of light if you are outside ng pinas.hehehe

yes.having a standardized association would mean getting potential clients to give what is due to the package and rate of a true professional photography service. it will help them see photography service in a different manner that which deserves every ounce of prepared budget as they are much willing to give when it comes to other details of their event such as found in weddings. In this line, a lot of industry killers as well won't be able to kill the "right client" for the asking price of a highly qualified photographer.cheers!

Different photographers represent different levels of expertise, equipment, facilities, services etc. so I personally do not see the need and possibility of all of us agreeing to a standard rate.

However, we can aspire to work on certain standards and maybe adopt what Marlo Moya has suggested about classifying studios and photographers into levels. This is of course a big challenge - what will be the criteria for ranking studios? Who will do the accreditation?

I am hopeful that this can be done. Restaurants and hotels have done a great job of ranking themselves. Private schools have their accreditation processes too. I don't see why photographers won't or can't.

Maybe we can start by defining basis for grouping studios/photographers into 5 groups, from one star to top of the line 5-star. Let's define what each level must have in terms of facilities, equipment, staff, expertise (can be based on portfolio, or could be demonstrated).

Let us define who will be in the accreditation team - what would be their qualifications. How will they be checked so they don't abuse their "power."

Photographers can voluntary submit to the accreditation process so they can add the insignia that Marlo suggested. Getting the accreditation can help in everyone's marketing effort.

If anyone is interested in getting this done, let me know. I can provide the venue. And the snacks.:D:)

photography being to an extent an art form is difficult to pin down but if the other countries can do it why cant we...

if there's a will there's a way. at the end of the day, if we can raise the value of professional photography in general then this is good for everyone at any level.

im in and will list after ; )

1.
2.
3.

i really do hope this will materialize...photographers here in mindanao badly need this... =)

Hi Sir Nick,

You suggestion on the issue of a rate standardization is great. Hope you could organize this as soon as possible because especially right now where digital cameras (specially DSLR prices are going down), everybody who owns it could claim he's a photographer in a snap of a finger but this is hurting legitimate photographers in competing in the business realms of photography.

Hope you could find time to organize all the members (DPP) and have their thoughts about this in an open forum. In this way, you could professionalize the industry as well. Like Doctors, lawyers and other profession.

In this way, other would take photography as a serious profession not just a hobby to play with or just a source of income.

Thank you.

Randy Quel