The following post is a position paper I completed earlier this year regarding trying to standardize the rates of photography in the Philippines. This paper was brought about from discussions among professional photographers (The Zoo) regarding a lot of common woes with regards to the photography industry. We are hoping that this can lead to some united action among photographers to professionalize this industry.
Due to the length of the paper, i had to chop it up into 5 different parts. The final section is the FAQ.

TOWARDS A RATE GUIDE FOR THE PHILIPPINE PHOTOGRAPHY INDUSTRY


The absence of a standard rate guide for photography services has been a constant dilemma for Philippine photographers. In recent years, as camera manufacturers have been making professional level digital cameras more and more affordable, the number of people entering professional photography has also been on the increase. As a result, with new photographers lacking any reference point for pricing, industry prices have been spiraling downward to the detriment of all who make their living from photography.

Even many established photographers sometimes find themselves at a loss when determining how much to charge for a particular job. Fearing that we are charging way too low, or that we are charging too high that we might lose the project, sometimes causes us stress and leads us to seek advice from fellow photographers. Unfortunately, many of those we seek advice from are also quite uncertain if their own pricing scheme is right. Confusion is even heightened when we seek advice from two or more photographers and discover that all have pricing schemes so different from one another.

Imagine then the situation of new photographers eager to enter the industry. With no reference to look to for pricing, they resort to pricing themselves so low. This causes a devastating effect on the photography industry in general as it increasingly erodes the market value of our services and, with it, the respect for the profession as well. To a large extent, these new photographers can’t be blamed because there is no existing guide to base their prices on.

Let me point out a few real life examples. February 2005, a client was asking for a quotation for a catalogue shoot for 200 products. All shots were to be done on simple white background and were estimated to be completed within 3 days. Due to the volume of work, quotes were entering in the range of P500-P1500 per product. Lowest quote totaled P100,000.00. Client was trying to negotiate as it was only willing to pay P70,000 for the whole project. All of a sudden, a new photographer won the bid as he charged an unbelievable P2,000 per pay. Imagine, the client who was willing to pay P70,000 got away with paying only P6,000 for the whole project. If only that photographer knew better. As a result, in the eyes of that client, P2,000 a day is what photography is worth!

Summer 2004, a particular publication had a special project. Portraits of 20 people needed to be done within two days in the same location. The publication pegged the rate at P2,500 per layout which amounted to P50,000 for the whole project – a huge amount by local standards for editorial photography. Two days before the project, I was informed that I was being replaced as a new photographer offered to do the project at a rate of P1,250 only. I figured that at P25,000 for the project, it would still be a good rate based on our low editorial rates. Unfortunately, I found out that the photographer did not charge P1,250 per layout but charged P1,250 per day! The publication got their requirement done at ten percent the amount they were willing to pay. Horrified at this I talked to the photographer and found out that he had no idea how much to charge nor how much the magazine was willing to pay. He had recently quit his P400 a day job and decided to do photography professionally. At P1,250 a day doing photography, he thought he was doing well.

The stories of woe from photographers are plentiful nowadays. Competition has been getting more numerous with prices getting lower. It is high time that a rate guide for the Philippine photography industry be developed to safeguard photography as a viable profession.

PROPOSAL

A Philippine Photographer’s Rate Guide could be a solution to help standardize and control the industry rates for professional photography services. Such a Rate Guide could be made universally accessible via a web page on the internet and would serve as a reference point not only for photographers but even for all clients when there is a need to determine pricing for professional photography requirements.

Objectives

Protect the photography industry by providing a reference guide for photographers with regards to pricing for various photographic services.
Protects the photography industry by informing photographers of their rights and other industry practices.
Protects the photography industry by providing information regarding industry rates, practices, and photographer’s rights to clients in need of various photography requirements.

Form

Imagine a website housing the Philippine Photographer’s Rate Guide. When a photographer has a particular assignment and is uncertain on how to price it, he can visit the site and search the category of the type of photography service he is to render. He can then find ranges of prices he can charge depending on the type of photography and its intended usage. So if he is doing product photography for press release purposes, he can find the suggested industry prices for such a service. If he is doing food photography to be used for a billboard, he will likewise find a specific pricing for this service.

Since experience and specialization play a big factor in determining pricing, we will set price ranges in 3 tiers – low, medium, and high. It will be up to each photographer to determine what price range he fits in based on his expertise and experience. For example, a new photographer would most likely base his prices on the ‘low’ ranges as he still gains experience and develops his skills. A veteran fashion photographer might peg his rates at the ‘high’ range but might opt to peg his price at the ‘middle’ range if asked to do food photography which he is not as adept at.

Since various ways of pricing such as per layout/set-up, per hour, and per day are schemes often used, we hope to come up with a rate guide addressing all these categories.

On the same site, we hope to have information regarding photographer’s rights, ways to protect and enforce these rights, and other information on industry practices. Hopefully, other guides or tips which can help photographer’s professionalize their craft would also be on the site.

Method

How to come up with the proposed rate guides is the big question. Some form of survey among the practicing professional photographers will be necessary to come up with generally acceptable categories and rates. Definitely a monumental task, but it is one that is necessary. We are definitely open for suggestions and open for membership for a working committee to put this to task.

Frequently Asked Questions:



Is the rate guide supposed to be a rule that should be followed by all photographers? – No, it is meant to be a guide based on present industry conditions. With the absence of a truly industry wide association, and with the constant influx of new photographers, there is no mechanism to make it a mandatory rule to be followed. The best it can be is a reference for photographers to base their pricing on that they may achieve fair compensation for their work and at the same time protect the industry.
How will this stop photographers from under pricing? – It won’t, but it can at least discourage and limit it. Reality is that some photographers are put into situations wherein they sometimes have to under price for economic reasons. The rate guide gives not only a standard reference but also an aspiration that many photographers may wish to target. Thus, if a photographer chooses to under price, the rate guide will encourage him to not stray too far from the standards. For example: if a photographer is quoting for a particular job and he discovers that the minimum industry rate is P10,000, if he does choose to under price, he might opt to quote P8,000 instead. Without a rate guide, he might have quoted a low P2,000. Knowing that the going rate is P10,000, most people would aspire to come as close to that as possible and may even feel cheated if they went too much lower. Photographers may be emboldened thinking if other photographers get paid at those rates, why does he deserve any less?
How can this help photographers convince their clients that the prices they quote are reasonable? – So often, many photographers hear from clients that the prices they quoted are way too expensive, yet the photographer has already bent over backwards giving them really low rates. Aside from wanting to get the lowest rate possible, there are two basic reasons that this happens: because clients have no idea of what photography industry rates are and because they have encountered other photographers that have charged lower rates. The rate guide, being accessible on the internet becomes an excellent information dissemination tool which photographers can point out to clients. For example: a client tells a photographer that his rate of P10,000 for a particular project is way too high. The photographer checked that industry rates range from P10,000-20,000 for that particular job and he has already opted to charge the lowest rate. He can now argue with confidence that he is giving the client the lowest rate possible. He can further punctuate his stand by having the client check the industry price range at the rate guide web site. This then serves to inform the client of present industry rates and could help condition him to accept the fair rate. The presence of this guide may also be helpful in another way. Let’s say the client still wants to get a lower rate and tries contacting another photographer. Chances are, this other photographer will refer to the same rate guide and quote within the same range. This will aid to further convince the client to accept the proposed rates.
How will this prevent new photographers from pricing too low? – Many new photographers are faced with the dilemma of not knowing how much the value of photography services are. By making the rate guide web site an industry wide standard, we hope that all new photographers will look to it as a reference for pricing. Most of these new photographers will aspire for the high rates and will most likely try to quote within the price range or as close to it as possible. One main benefit of the rate guide is to arm photographers with the confidence to quote the rates they deserve.

How about dealing with clients that are economically challenged? – We will sometimes come across clients that cannot afford the standard rates. There might be non-profit organizations, very small businesses, or other individuals or establishments that we know may not be able to afford standard rates. The rate guide still serves its purpose as a peg for photographers to base their prices on. Hopefully, one of the low ranges of one of the schemes (per hour, per day, per layout, etc) will be acceptable. If the photographer finds out that even these rates are too high for that particular client, he can give concessions out of his own generosity but should emphasize the going industry rate that he should have charged. That way, we can still promote the industry rates and maintain the respect for photography as a service of value.
Why do we need to have different price ranges? – Not all photographers are of equal experience and expertise. Not all clients have the same requirements in terms of quality and budget. Some clients may need very high quality images made with proficient technical skill and superb creative execution. Many others have very basic photography requirements that even new professional photographers can easily handle. It becomes essential to have a wide range of price schemes and ranges to meet the various needs of the market.

How do I determine which price range I would fall under? – There will be 3 basic price ranges: low, middle, and high. Only the photographer himself can determine which price range he can charge depending on his level of experience and expertise. The photographer must be sensitive in the general client reaction to his practice. If he finds that he is more and more sought after for the quality of his work or his particular expertise, then this can be an indication that he could opt for a higher price range. A photographer may also vary his price range depending on his particular expertise. For example: a renowned portrait photographer, who might be able to fetch the highest prices for portrait jobs, might opt to take a low or medium price range if pricing for a jewelry photography job that he is not as experienced or adept in.

1. This is a great initiative.

2. What are your specific next steps?

3. Are you willing to provide leadership to this initiative until the objective is accomplished? Count me in if you are.

All the best.

this is a great move from the industry professionals..pricing is really a problem here in the Philippines even in other professions.

Extending my support, will also monitor developments and help out if necessary..

This looks like a good start in professionalizing the photographers trade. It's a long way to go but this is a start.

This is going to be the nth start... lets all support the group so we can sustain this initiative and save the industry from the rats...

Hi Louie,

I posted it again at http://www.philippinephotographer.com :)

I applaud you sir for this initiative. This is a bold step in protecting the industry. I'm all for it, you have my support.

i want to help :)

this is would really help our industry. thanks sir for sharing, leading and for the enlightenment. you have our support. hope this will be the start of achieving every photographers dream.... and the will be us.

this is a good start indeed. baby steps to a great goal :)

cge gawin n natin ung website.. im not that good in web programming but i can help in layout and design and encoding... i willing to volunteer to this projects.. im young but i have that vision too. to have a standard in photography rate.. lets educate themm...

GOD BLESS...

I don't want to sound sarcastic here but many good ideas in this country never go anywhere. From Louie's original post this initiative was originally conceptualized by professional photographers called the Zoo. I'd like to know how long ago this was planned because if the members of the Zoo were actually determined to help their profession, they would have moved forward with this initiative.

So we have a few guys on this forum, me included, pledging their support. I'd like to ask what is the next step? Are we going to become another Zoo? Or do we actually make this rate guide happen?

You may want to petition the people of this magazine for their assistance. It seems like DPP could be the vehicle to get your voice heard.

oh yeah.. i think the next step is to find the members who wants to help with the project...

im more than willing to help out on this since i dont have a fulltime job i can commit to this project long term. im really looking forward for this for this will help us photographers a lot.


charles penacerrada

I don't want to sound sarcastic here but many good ideas in this country never go anywhere. From Louie's original post this initiative was originally conceptualized by professional photographers called the Zoo. I'd like to know how long ago this was planned because if the members of the Zoo were actually determined to help their profession, they would have moved forward with this initiative.

So we have a few guys on this forum, me included, pledging their support. I'd like to ask what is the next step? Are we going to become another Zoo? Or do we actually make this rate guide happen?

You may want to petition the people of this magazine for their assistance. It seems like DPP could be the vehicle to get your voice heard.

The plan so far are as follows:
creation of the framework of the rate guide: divisions and categories, etc
working out the method for data gathering and collating
actual data gathering and collating
finalization of rate guide

we are trying to work out the system to go about this, so far though, it has been recommended by many to limit the initial planning to a few, as when there are too many voices too much talk happens that it hinders movement... at least from our experience over the past two years

i brought up the proposal of the rate guide a year ago during a general meeting of the zoo. further discussions were done later on. i finshed the position paper this past summer. yes, i do wish it could move faster. we appreciate all the support and assistance offered.

my wish is that we could launch this during a seminar for photographers to be conducted by the IPO (government office on Intellectual Property). I have been holding discussions with the IPO and they are eager to help photographers know, understand, and safeguard their rights over their images. A seminar is being planned which we hope to invite all photographers. We have asked DPP's support for these endeavors and they have pledged their support.

Hopefully, by the time we can have this seminar, we invite as many photographers possible and at the same time introduce the Rate Guide and distribute the survey forms so we can start collecting data.

Please do let us know if and what ways you would like to help so we know what resources we have available. Thanks.

this is a worhtwhile endevour. I hope even the "fly by night or hunter photgraphers" can at least be educated by this move. I agree it wont stop the price war in the industry but educating more photographers can elevate one way or the other the "standard".

one challenge is how to get "them" to cooperate and understand the ill effects of a price war instead of competing in quality. Pardon my tagalog but this "masalimuot".
there will always be some who will stick to money in the pocket 1st attitude and industry 2nd, but educating more photgraphers of what the standard pricing are for certain category of photgraphers will help lift the prices of others.

Maybe a licensing body can be created like other professionals they have a PRC license? this could help differentiate various types of photgraphers?

just sharing some of my thoughts.......

Go For it Sir Loui!

Please do let us know if and what ways you would like to help so we know what resources we have available. Thanks.


baka pwede..
i'm a web developer.. :)

[QUOTE=Louie Aguinaldo]The plan so far are as follows:
creation of the framework of the rate guide: divisions and categories, etc
working out the method for data gathering and collating
actual data gathering and collating
finalization of rate guide

I don't think this will take very long and can be finalized in just about two days. You probably have enough respectable professionals in this forum in varying specialties of photography who can easily give their comment and share information. Pilar Tuason for wedding, G-nie A and you Louie A for advertising, Anton Sheker for travel, Frank Hoefsmit and Pat Dy for fashion, etc, etc, etc. Does it have to take forever?

Also, launching through a seminar with IPO will get nowhere. The IPO and a rate guide are two different things altogether. The best, and not to impose to the team that runs this magazine :) is to get their support and move this initiative forward through DPP mag and through this forum. Its just like advertising. The more people know about it the better. I don't know how much DPP is circulated but seeing that there are over 750 members on this forum and that their magazine is distributed in the major newsstands, you should strike a deal with Nick Tuason and have him support the cause. The reach of the mag and the forum is the easiest and most simple way to promote this rate guide. And why bother having a website created for this? Why don't you ask DPP to just place it on this forum?

Sorry if I come off as strong. I just hate to see a good idea thrown away by talk rather than action. This is not a difficult project.

I don't think this will take very long and can be finalized in just about two days. You probably have enough respectable professionals in this forum in varying specialties of photography who can easily give their comment and share information. Pilar Tuason for wedding, G-nie A and you Louie A for advertising, Anton Sheker for travel, Frank Hoefsmit and Pat Dy for fashion, etc, etc, etc. Does it have to take forever?

It's not as simple as it seems. A lot of consultations have to take place just to work out the frame work. Take note that the field of photography is vast. Just determining the types of projects that rates will be made for is quite immense. For example: pricing for personal use, for press release usage, for instore posters, for menus, for billboards, for print ads, for websites, for magazines, for album covers, etc, etc, etc... then again varying prices depending on location, depending on equipment uses, depending on difficulty of work.... some charge less if the shots are dropped out compared to having elaborate set-ups. So many things to consider and work out.


Also, launching through a seminar with IPO will get nowhere. The IPO and a rate guide are two different things altogether.

I beg to disagree. How can it lead nowhere? If that IPO seminar is publicized well, I don't think you will find any gathering that will bring more photographers together at the same time for the same purpose. That would be an ideal time to launch it and get peoples help in collecting data. Plus, having government support can't be a bad thing. Specially when we want to enforce our rights over our intellectual property which is inherently related to the rate guide issue. Part of the need for the rate guide is precisely due to abuses to the copyright ownership of photographers.

The best, and not to impose to the team that runs this magazine :) is to get their support and move this initiative forward through DPP mag and through this forum. Its just like advertising. The more people know about it the better. I don't know how much DPP is circulated but seeing that there are over 750 members on this forum and that their magazine is distributed in the major newsstands, you should strike a deal with Nick Tuason and have him support the cause. The reach of the mag and the forum is the easiest and most simple way to promote this rate guide. And why bother having a website created for this? Why don't you ask DPP to just place it on this forum?

As mentioned in the previous post, the Publishers of DPP have pledged their support.
On the idea why not having it just here instead of having a separate website - no, not a good idea.... its a totally separate thing. The rate guide is bound to be controversial. There will be people who will not agree with it - either its format, the rates, etc. There will be clients who will be upset with it as they start finding out that they have a hard time getting photographers for abusively low rates. This might adversely affect the forum and DPP as well. Besides, the target of the Rate Guide is not only for photographers but for clients as well. It has to have its own site.

Sorry if I come off as strong. I just hate to see a good idea thrown away by talk rather than action. This is not a difficult project.

Difficult project it is. You have no idea how diverse and fragmented the various personalities and groups there are within the photographic community. I am even sure that there are those who will boycott the rate guide once they discover that the rate system is not agreeable to them. There are some photographers, for example, who are against the whole idea of a day rate, but this has become an often used alternative rate system as opposed to the more profitable per layout rate. Thus we would have to come up with a rate guide for that as well.
Thus part of the necessary action at this point is a lot of talk. At least the ball has started to roll.

Well Louie I salute you on your vailiant effort to get this project off the ground. Its just as monumental as the save Hidalgo movement of John Chua. I still don't believe that this is that difficult.

Steps
1) Get influential photographers together and form a union or association such as the most powerful associations in the USA, ie. PMA or PPA
2) Put everyone together in one room and get the respective rates for each industry represented. This list just has to be a general guide and doesn't need to have every little specific part of photography as you mention (like how much to charge for shooting three hours in Lola Auring's 80th birthday by giving 300 5Rs without photo album plus travel expenses, etc :D )
3) You don't need to get the IPO involved since you can also determine what becomes industry rates for selling your images. IPO is there to make sure that you are protected but rates are deternined by the photographers.
4) Set up your website
5) Get DPP to write about it and actually publish a rate card for the association. Have them print the rate card twice a year.
6) Go to the FPPF and other photography learning centers and distribute brochures about your association and your rate card.

For me the issue is getting the right people involved and having them stick to the program. And who cares if many photographes don't agree with this program, they don't have to be a member of the association.

This stuff is not rocket science. All that is needed is determination.

Well Louie I salute you on your vailiant effort to get this project off the ground. Its just as monumental as the save Hidalgo movement of John Chua. I still don't believe that this is that difficult.

Steps
1) Get influential photographers together and form a union or association such as the most powerful associations in the USA, ie. PMA or PPA
2) Put everyone together in one room and get the respective rates for each industry represented. This list just has to be a general guide and doesn't need to have every little specific part of photography as you mention (like how much to charge for shooting three hours in Lola Auring's 80th birthday by giving 300 5Rs without photo album plus travel expenses, etc :D )
3) You don't need to get the IPO involved since you can also determine what becomes industry rates for selling your images. IPO is there to make sure that you are protected but rates are deternined by the photographers.
4) Set up your website
5) Get DPP to write about it and actually publish a rate card for the association. Have them print the rate card twice a year.
6) Go to the FPPF and other photography learning centers and distribute brochures about your association and your rate card.

For me the issue is getting the right people involved and having them stick to the program. And who cares if many photographes don't agree with this program, they don't have to be a member of the association.

This stuff is not rocket science. All that is needed is determination.


This is the real world, I hope it would be as simple as you propose. Just gathering the pros for a meeting is difficult enough. Do you know that to come up with the rate guide we tried to set a meeting several times but failed to do so because we couldn't get everyone available. In the end, when we did meet about the rate guide it was just me and Ray Isaac present. Thus, I worked on the rate guide hoping that once this was up it would generate more interest and get people more determined to be involved.

Second, setting up an association isn't that simple. Unfortunately, there is politics that also goes around photographers groups and organizations. In fact there are many who are not in favor to putting up an association due to past experiences.

Again, I never said we 'need' the IPO to get involved but it sure is practical and will help more to ally them with our cause. And as I mentioned, I can't think of any other even that might draw as much photographers to one place at the same time where they would sit down and listen. And if you want an association, that's what the IPO would like to encourage us to do. Though that is not part of my plan, if it comes about and photographers want it, then well and good. So far though, there are many that don't.

Plus the guide will be basic but comprehensive for photographers services. Take note, services not add ons. So rates will be for the service of photography and not include variations due to how many prints etc.

you're definitely filling a void here. as the the industry gets populated by new players serious hobbyists crossing over to pro status pricing pressure will increase many fold judging from the number of dslr touting hobbyists aspiring to be pros. it's the law of supply and demand at work here and if differentiation between the work of a seasoned pro and an inherently talented newbie is negligible then it will quickly become too commoditized. frankly, if i may add, a good number of hobbyists are better than some "pros" in my opinion. You can't say the same for other professions like the medical field. that fact in itself is is potentially explosively damaging to how the market will approach pricing.

its an enormous challenge but one that can take a short route or a long one. what's important i believe is to get enough players to support it to make it reasonalbly credible. since there will be no other formal and official reference points out there then it will be the de facto rate table for the industry.

i suggest you talk to pros of influence and allow them to sell it for you. it's in their best interest!

btw, i'm coming from the "serious hobbyist" side of the equation... =)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/johnedward

Hi John,

First of all, what is your basis in saying that there are some hobbyists better than some pros? Do you have the statistics and figures to substantiate this statement? Have you tried shooting straight for ten (10) to twelve (hours) under all weather conditions? I don't think so. What might be good for you might not pass the demanding requirements of a wedding client or advertising agency and even a multi-national corporation. Sad thing about hobbyists is that they spend so much time and money on exhibits and out-of-town photoshoots that only give them self-gratification. You better get some facts before you make a comparative analysis between the pros and hobbyists. I was once a hobbyist but saw the light and crossed over to become a professional and respect my peers. You will only understand what Louie is saying and other professional photographers out there if you join the battlefield. You might even be a single person with a fixed salary from a stable job and not experience the difficulties of supporting a family and a business that entails a lot of investment. Regarding the influential pros, I think you have inaccurate data because there is a Photography Cartel out there that you might not even be aware of for the simple fact that you are inexperienced in handling big accounts.

Hi John,

First of all, what is your basis in saying that there are some hobbyists better than some pros? Do you have the statistics and figures to substantiate this statement? Have you tried shooting straight for ten (10) to twelve (hours) under all weather conditions? I don't think so. What might be good for you might not pass the demanding requirements of a wedding client or advertising agency and even a multi-national corporation. Sad thing about hobbyists is that they spend so much time and money on exhibits and out-of-town photoshoots that only give them self-gratification. You better get some facts before you make a comparative analysis between the pros and hobbyists. I was once a hobbyist but saw the light and crossed over the pros and respect my peers. You will only understand what Louie is saying and other professional photographers out there if you join the battlefield.

In fairness to what John said, he pointed out that it was in his opinion that there were some hobbyists better than some pros. It is a fair observation, and I must agree also as have seen the works of some hobbyists that are simply awesome and superior to the work of many pros. Take for example the works of Richard Larrios, a hobbyist. We had exhibited him at DPI. I for one witnessed fellow pros who actually admitted that Richard's landscape works were superior to their own.
John doesn't need statistics and figures to prove that statement as he gave an opinion that some hobbyists are better than pros. He didn't give any statement of mathematical certainty.

I believe the point he is trying to make is that if there are newbies who can come up with work comparable to the work of pros, then the industry rates can get really unsettled once they start charging low. Let's say Pro Photog A charges P20,000 a layout. Then here comes Newbie and he charges P2,000 a layout. What happens if the work of Newbie is so good that he can come up with work comparable to Pro Photog A. For many clients, they will definitely take the cheaper rout. Thus radically upsetting the rates of the industry. Unfortunately, many clients can't tell the difference between a seasoned pro and a newbie.

Sadly though, I have to agree with his observation that there are hobbyists that are better than some pros. I see it all the time. Remember that being a pro doesn't guarantee being a better photographer. There are hobbyists who are such great photographers but opted not to make it a career. That does not diminish their talent at all. And there are pro photographers that produce very sloppy work. I just had a graphics agency have me do a reshoot for them because a pro photographer they hired gave them substandard work. I was quite surprised because the said photographer took product shots and submitted them underexposed, overexposed, and so sloppily done that I couldn't understand why there was so much inconsistency. Some shots were so severely overexposed that there were areas blown out that there was no data.

I made a post about seeing some inferior photos in rockwell over the weekend and got roasted for saying it. (well after re-reading my intro post, it came off as a bit strong so I apologize) It didn't take long for some of the professionals to defend these rockwell photos even if they were technically terrible. There is plenty of truth to what John Edward says and validated by Louie Aguinaldo, that plenty of the amateurs are exhibiting better work than professionals. Just take a look at the reader's gallery in DPP mag and you will see what I mean. Richard Larrios as Louie pointed out is a perfect example. And my observation about the photos in rockwell is just another example since those photos would have seriously failed in any international competition.

Lets face it, many of the serious hobbyists who do take all those photography workshops don't have to do photography to earn a living. In fact, the work they produce is out of passion while for some professional photographers it could be drudgery. Its not surprising why Louie had to re-do the work of a professional. Quality can simply suffer.

Many of these serious amateurs are also the people who do take on some photography work not because they need the money but because of interest and challenge. I guess you can call them semi-pros. They may charge low just for the pleasure of getting the job. I don't think anything can be done about this but there are ways. I am for setting up an organization or association such as the PPA in the US that has their own photographer ratings. This association has to become THE dominant photography association in the country and governed by respected individuals. You earn your merits by competing in events, gaining points, and passing tests. Your price structure can be determined according to your rank. A photographer can then have their own rate card because they show superior technical skills.

Louie's rate card for professionals is a nice idea but may falter in the face of reality. The rates do not mean a thing unless there is something to which it could be compared to.

Hi Louie, John and Gabriel,

I actually believe that there are some hobbyists that are better than the pros but is it not a valid statement to say that many works of pros are sloppy. As what Patrick says, you always get what you paid for. The difference betwen pros and amateurs is that the latter has the luxury of time. Pros sometimes work long hours and also get frustrated because what might be technically and aesthetically right and beatiful to the photographer whether he is a pro or amateur is bad for the client. I experienced this even in Fashion Photography. Photos that are below international standards are sometimes the ones being chosen by the Fashion Designer. In Advertising, the Creative Director has a different opinion over the artistic taste of the Art Director and the same applies to the Picture Editor. There are instances that they also don't agree on what photos to submit for final printing but there is only one guy who makes the final decision. The same thing applies to couples. the groom likes candid shots while some brides prefer well composed shots. You see, Photography is a relative science. Beauty is always on the eyes of the Beholder.

The problem is more on rates. As what Dominique James said in one of the seminars I attended, competition should be based on the quality of work we produce and not on price war. A rich hobbyist for example from Ayala Alabang or Forbes Park can produce beautiful photos for free while a professional photographer who is underequipped might produce a lower quality for the simple fact that he doesn't have the right tools. Here comes a rich guy who uses a 16 MP digital SLR with an f2.8 Lens and all the accessories you can think of that he can buy anytime he wants and comes this poor guy still using a film based SLR with a simple f3.5-5.6 lens. So there is really no point of comparison. If this rich guy doesn't need the money he should at least explain that there are poor people out there who can still produce world-class products.

Not all pros are there for the money, there are some who also want to produce beautiful photos and realized that they enjoy working with what they like to do most with passion and creativity. It does require a mathematical data to make such a conclusion. The ratio you mentioned Louie is 1 to 1. Why not compare the work of a good hobbyist to a seasoned photographer like Lito Sy? You see you cannot compare apples to grapes. In the corporate world where I came from, friction arises when people start to compare their professional fees. It is best that the client makes the final decision. Most of the time, professional fee is based on experience and the quality of work you produce. I used to charge an initial rate but when my craftsmanship started to improve over the years. I can already charge what is due me. I am now avoiding problematic accounts that will only give me headaches. A client once told me that he did not have any regrets when he commissioned me because I took great photos of his family.

Another area why some good works of the pros are not published is with copyright issues. Although it belongs to the creator, permission is still needed from the subject. Like this couple who got married abroad. They are from a famous family from the South. Pictures were world-class but were not shown in the Gallery for security and political reasons. The one that was shown in the Photo Congress was the bridal gown facing the window overseeing Hongkong harbour. That's the problem, never judge others with inaccurate and insufficient data. Statements should always be supported by facts and not opinions. When you say many hobbyists, how many are they? When you say many pros, how many are they? Was there a survey made? Probably you are just looking at the tip of the ice-berg and not out of the box.
There are many talented and good pros that are not well advertised and remain to be unnoticed or underrated. Did you know for example that Nolyn Cabahug is not the best Tenor in the Country? Ask him and he will tell you who is the best Tenor Singer. He is simply well-known from his commercial stint and became famous because of advertising.

Hi Louie, John and Gabriel,

I actually believe that there are some hobbyists that are better than the pros but is it not a valid statement to say that many works of pros are sloppy.

I am sorry, but how can it not be a valid statement. It is an actual reality. There are pros who can produce sloppy work. Are you actually implying that all pros are hard working and are meticulous with their work? Of course that is not the case, and I can state that for a fact. In the line of business I am in I can attest to you that there is so much photography work that passes my hands which need to be fixed because of sloppy photography.

Would you believe that I had to salvage photos for a TV show done by a respected professional photographer. Why did I have to salvage it? The pro photographer was sloppy. He obviously didn't meter. Maybe he didn't even check his LCD. All his images were severely overexposed and so poorly lit that even the Executive Producer of the show said that she could take better photos with a point and shoot.

Being a pro doesn't make a photographer better. Being a pro does not guarantee talent. It can mean having the equipment. It can mean having connections. It can mean one who chose to do it for a living. It in no way guarantees technical proficiency nor does it imply being hard working.

Ok, you might reason, if the photographer was not good then no one would hire him. That's not the case. There are photographers who produce sloppy work and still get work because many clients don't know any better.

A few years ago, a foundation had to hire a professional photographer for an event. He had a portfolio. He had been doing pro work and had a list of clients. When he submitted his CD with 400+ images we were shocked at the quality. It was hideous. Out of focus, severely over and underexposed. Would you believe that the foundation did not use his photos and used photos taken by a foundation member with his point and shoot. Now wasn't that sloppy? Everyone wondered how the images could be that bad if he was a pro and had a decent portfolio? Maybe he was just sloppy?

Another instance. I just finished a shoot with a midsized ad agency several hours ago. After the shoot they asked me a question. They had finished a shoot the day before and they had problems with the shots. The colors were flat and greenish. They were initially impressed with the photographer and all his hi-tech gear which they enumerated to me. Yet when they saw the photos on the monitor of his mac, they were bothered that it was greenish. They asked the photographer why the color is that way, and if he can he fix it. The photographer told them that nothing can be done because that's the way the light registers. So they asked me if that was the case. Now tell me, isn't that sloppy pro work.

Pro photographers are human... they aren't perfect, and they can be sloppy.

Hi Louie, John and Gabriel,

Another area why some good works of the pros are not published is with copyright issues. Although it belongs to the creator, permission is still needed from the subject. Like this couple who got married abroad. They are from a famous family from the South. Pictures were world-class but were not shown in the Gallery for security and political reasons. The one that was shown in the Photo Congress was the bridal gown facing the window overseeing Hongkong harbour. That's the problem, never judge others with inaccurate and insufficient data. Statements should always be supported by facts and not opinions. When you say many hobbyists, how many are they? When you say many pros, how many are they? Was there a survey made? Probably you are just looking at the tip of the ice-berg and not out of the box.
There are many talented and good pros that are not well advertised and remain to be unnoticed or underrated. Did you know for example that Nolyn Cabahug is not the best Tenor in the Country? Ask him and he will tell you who is the best Tenor Singer. He is simply well-known from his commercial stint and became famous because of advertising.

This is getting overly philosophical. The statement made by John was a valid statement. He said many hobbyists. He did not say most hobbyists. You don't need a survey to make such a statement. You don't need to mathematically quantify it. Apparently from John's experience, he has seen the works of many hobbyists that have better work than professional photographers. That is enough for his statement to be valid. He stated an opinion. You fail to take into consideration that the appreciation of photography is largely subjective. It is based on a personal opinion of the viewer. It cannot be supported by fact. The basis of one photographer being better than another, is based on opinion and not on fact. So I don't see what's the big problem with certain persons stating their valid opinion that the work of some hobbyists are better than some pros. Or that some professional photographers produce sloppy work. What's the problem here?

Oh, and I don't really get your analogy about some photographer not being able to publish some of their great works due to copyright issues. Are you trying to say that we should not evaluate a photographer until we see all his works? I don't think a photographer should be evaluated by a few of his best works but should be evaluated by his body of work. In other words, if he is good, he should be consistently good. And that's what clients look for. The ability for the photographer to produce consistently good results.

And yes I very well know that Nolyn Cabahug is not the best Tenor in the country. And yes it is true that there are many excellent photographers that are not as well known because they are not publicized, or don't have the connections.

One thing to note, not all increase in one's rate as a professional photographer is due to years of hard work. I know of some young photographers in their mid 20's who get paid enormous sums. It's not from earning their dues from years of work. It's sheer talent. I know of one who get's paid ten's of thousands per layout. Many photographers with years and years of experience can't even get half of what he makes.

And then there are those who can command good rates and get good jobs because of connections or name value. This doesn't guarantee superior quality compared to those around them.

Anyway, this debate on hobbyists as against pro is sidetracking too much from the intention of the thread - the Rate Guide. I suggest we get back on track.

Hi Louie,

No need to apoligize Sir, I respect your work and opinions. You are even more senior than me in the industry. I agree that even the pros commit mistakes and sometimes create sloppy work for the simple fact that they sometimes don't have the passion anymore to what they are doing, everything becomes too mechanical. In my case, I always look up to people like you and the masters. I make it a point that any rate adjustment on my professional fee is justified by a higher standard of work. People should get value for their money. That was how I was trained over the years as a banker. I guess, I carried that principle of work ethics in whatever business venture I get into. I also want to professionalize the photography industry in the country because we are all talented people whether pro or amateurs. You've seen the quality of work we produce at Ayala Alabang Camera Club. They are world-class and can compete with the pros. That is one of the lessons I learned from one of my mentors there who always have an eye for imperfections. In my case, I give both raw files and enhanced images to the client so there is little room for any complaints or sloppiness. Customer-Service Satisfaction is on top of my priorities as well as delighting them always. I'd just like to point out that not all photographers are sloppy. Well, the problem is that the premise was invalid from the start so there was an invalid series of syllogism and conclusion. Don't worry, there are many good professionals out there like you and me. So, we all agree then that the basis for rates is on the quality of work we produce and consistency? You also mentioned about name value? That's what I've been trying to say. I simply want professionals to follow international standards here in the country but how can we come up with a rate guide if you will include name value? It's like paying Aga Muhlach Php 25 to Php 50 million for a photoshoot. There are other good looking guys out there who don't get paid that much. So, Life will always be unfair. Don't you think so? :-).

I must admit that this thread, while it has diverged a bit from the oriiginal post has been a great read. Lets continue on another thread.

just a thought...how about we do all discussions online which could provide:

1. better/easier access for most photographers everywhere in the country or the world. being based in the province (Bohol) i, for one, could only join discussions such as these through forums on the net.
2. more people would be more comfortable speaking out their views. some amateurs or newbies or pros who just aren't that out spoken can easily say things without much fear.

If I may add my two cents' worth, what makes pricing for photography services difficult is due to the wide range of photography services being offered. You have Wedding photography, Events photography, Advertising and layout photography, glamour and model photography, Boudoir photography, combat photography, news photography, studio photography, schools and graduations...the list is endless. Sometimes it's even a combination of one or two services.

When I'm asked to do events photography, for instance, that's field work. So I have to factor in several costs involved, for instance, Food and Gas, assistant's fee if I have an assistant, cost of lighting equipment if I had to rent, and sometimes even the cost of cleaning my camera if I'm in an area where my camera is susceptible to getting dirty. And after all that, that's when I add my professional fee.

Some people will do it differently. Some, based on experience, will charge a flat fee based on the number of hours. Some will factor in their costs involved. It isn't a walk in the park.

I laud the efforts of the people involved in standardizing photography rates for the industry and I wish them all the best of luck in their endeavours.

I would have to agree with Gabriel Ang on this one.

Waiting for the perfect moment to let this rate guide materialize will take forever.

Just as in any initiative, the first iteration of anything is just that... an iteration, thus leaving you with a bit of maneuverability going forward to revise the guide in relation to the times.

If you qualify it as such, you're given leeway by the "pros" and the clients.

Also, you don't have to peg the rate in absolute terms. You can peg it as a range.

All you have to do is start with basic services and plug in the rates gathered from an informal survey of pros and clients. You will come up with a range.

Then get the likes of DPP to dedicate, say, their last page to this rate guide just like how C! and Top Gear publishes prices of vehicles on all their issues (with a disclaimer that prices are good at the time of printing and may vary per dealer).

Gabriel Ang is right in this instance. How do you eat an "elephant"? One piece at a time.

I've been part of initiatives similar to this one (be it small projects or of the multimillion peso variety) albeit corporate. So I know what I'm talking about.

The key is always to start NOW.

You will always have detractors. But what great idea ever went unchallenged?

Your project is as noble as any. It is worth the hassle. I tell you, for every sh+thead out there that tells you your rate guide sucks or is inaccurate, there's 20 out there who'll hail you as a hero.

If you really want to, you can start this guide, published, in the next issue, if the owners permit it.

I apologize if I come off as obnoxious and preachy with this reply. But you just have to believe me that the forumers here are on your side, including myself. All 750 of 'em, in fact (o, kung meron aangal, sabihin niyo sa mukha namin ni Mr. Ang na mali kami).

Buti na lang at hobbyist lang ako ; )

We've been working on it. Just had a meeting with some of the APP (Advertising Photographers of the Philippines) last week regarding this matter.

i see that Louie is looking to improve the industry and uplift the photographer as a professional...

i believe it would do a lot of good once the objectives are met.. more power

mabuhay

http://www.philippinephotographer.com

Kudos to the Author of the Rate Guide article posted in the above URL :) Galing.

Kudos to the Author of the Rate Guide article posted in the above URL :) Galing.

Thanks. Its the same one I posted here. I am glad to see it is going around.

Thanks. Its the same one I posted here. I am glad to see it is going around.
Nice one Louie! We share your sentiments! "Ayos yan, para hindi binabarya ang maabilidad na Pinoy Photographer!":) There's nothing wrong to state in exclamation that we also need compensation for all the talent and skill we dispose off in our endeavors.

Excellent work there Louie!!! a new hope for the Filipino photographers, how about dealing with foreign photographer who does not have proper business documentations (excuse for one of our moderator who is a well respected photographer in the industry and very responsible individual ) and whose some of them were doing malpractices. how do we protect our own photographers. I've dealt with some of them and had bad experiences. how do we protect the photographer-model-client-agency against "malpractice". By the way how does an individual qualify to become a pro, should there be a business license, have a sales invoice/O.R., can a foreign photographer just work like anybody here in the philippines, do we regulate this kind also?

I would be interested to participate in (or host) any forum on pricing photography services.

Louie,
You've done a great job in jumpstarting this discussion - just let me know how I can help.

Louie,

I suggest we revive a new thread here. If Harvey Chua is willing to assist then you have the benchmark for advertising in the Phiippines. :) The rate card initiative is a good one. Lets get the wheels rolling on this.

I recently had a meeting with the APP (Advertising Photographers of the Philippines) regarding this. There are more and more photographers also sending messages of their willingness to help. We hope to come up with some concrete steps soon.

Harvey you can reach me through 09175295706. Thanks!

Louie, congrats!!!

Three cheers to Louie...

I remember how heated this discussion was in the original ph-photo egroup...

I recently had a meeting with the APP (Advertising Photographers of the Philippines) regarding this. There are more and more photographers also sending messages of their willingness to help. We hope to come up with some concrete steps soon.

Hi Louie,

That would be quite a feat indeed! The rest of the guilds will get progressively more difficult to convince - but not impossible!

Have your spoken to Mrs. Huang about it as well? Am not sure if this has been discussed at all during the past Photoworld Manila events.

The sooner the majority of tradespeople mature into this new paradigm, the faster this industry will grow. Of course, there will still be dissenters, an offshoot I daresay of too much freedom without an equal measure of responsibility. Or maybe just too much ego:Grin:.

Let me know if I can help in any way.

Cheers!

Edwin

In my opinion, the only difference between a hobbyist and a professional photographer is that the professional gets paid for doing photography. Being a better photographer is not a function of being a hobbyist or a professional. Either one or the other can be a better photographer or a more passionate photographer. In this world, there will always be somebody better, or worse off, than we are - whether we are professionals or amateurs. That said, however, I just would like to say that as a professional, we commit to ourselves and to our clients to doing the best job that we can do. For the amateur, he only needs to make that commitment to himself. And that is neither good nor bad - it's just a choice we make - whether to remain a hobbyist or to turn professional or vice versa. There is no need to pit one against the other.

Ano ba dapat ang rate guide? per picture you like? per layout? per day, per hour? sorry the thread is too long for me to read all of the replies to the thread starter.

Kung per layout, what is the value proposition kung bakit per layout ang charging?

Bakit yung iba, kayang mag-underprice? Do they have cheaper resources? Cheaper overheads?

Professional Photography is a very competitive industry, it's a dog-eat-dog, adapt-or-die world. Some can shoot for one-time-bigshot projects , others can do well sa mga tingi-tinging stock photos thru agencies, others can master specific genres and forge their names on it. Maraming possibilities to breeze through this industry. So if one of the reason of having a rate guide is fear of underpricing, it will not happen. I don't want to be a damper. A rate guide should be useful for both photographer and client. For client to know what is the best price and value for money in terms of quality, delivery and refreshing results. Refreshing, because you have to always push the envelope in your creativity, madaling mahalata ng client kung paulit-ulit ang style. For photographer, to have an idea on how much to charge, and how much to undercut the competition. :Dollar: PEACE!

Professional Photography is a very competitive industry, it's a dog-eat-dog, adapt-or-die world.

... because you have to always push the envelope in your creativity, madaling mahalata ng client kung paulit-ulit ang style.

With the advent of digital imaging and image manipulation software, the scuffle on how much to charge, for what type of set-up, and for how long now remains in limbo. In my humble opinion (Imho), photographers nowadays should be equally adept in post-processing and/or enhancement to be at par with today's perceived standard, much the same way as graphic artists are now embracing the camera as a tool on one hand and the pen/stylus/mouse/tablet in the other. Imho, we must evolve in order to survive. Gone are the glory days of yesteryear and we can only wait for the cycle to turn on the upside. Changes are surely going to happen, there's no doubting that, and until we learn to accept those changes and make the necessary modifications, we would be on the losing end. In the meantime, let's support our group's consensus on the creation of a rate guide and here's to hoping it prospers! I look forward to better days. Happy clickin'! :)

This is a noble proposal since every photographer wants to be adjudged and be priced by a customer based mainly on the quality of his output, professionalism and not based on the amount he is charging. However, as the paper has correctly indicated this might be an impossible dream since price differentiation is the easiest strategy to implement. All consumers are suckers for cheap suppliers. Too bad there are so many of them now just dying to make a buck.

I am just thinking that this idea can only come into fruition if there is a "union" or "professional association" of photographers that can dictate/standardize the price. Such an organization shall really professionalize the photographers and not just for eyeball purposes. The idea is for the group to have solid reputation and be the standard of the industry. Every photographer then wants to be a member of that association which can then enforce a stable pricing and everybody competes base on quality.

Perhaps a "utopia".

Can we organize a core group (of volunteers) to work on this? Louie, please take the lead. I'm signing up to help do this pricing guideline with you.

Actually, I think what we need more is a guide for usage. There are price guides available to photographers in US and Europe for usage of photos based on size of print, duration, circulation, where it is to be published, and so on.

Check this website with calculators for Advertising, Editorial, and Corporate use:

http://photographersindex.com/stockprice.htm (http://photographersindex.com/stockprice.htm)

Besides, it will be difficult, and a bit unfair to have a regulation photography rate as many photographers operate at different operating expenses, skill levels, and experience levels.

For operation costs I made a pricing guide of my own based on the Cost of Doing Business manual (http://www.burnsautoparts.com/BAPsite/Manuals_files/CODB.pdf)

This plus other guides on the business of photography can be found on the author's website:

http://www.burnsautoparts.com

Basically, you add up the cost of your gear, bills, rental, salaries, and other costs of doing business for a year and then divide that by the estimated number of days you expect to be shooting. The resulting figure is your cost of doing business (CODB) That would give you a guide on how much you need per shooting day to stay clear of the red.

Remember... the resulting figure is a guide of your operation costs for one shooting day. It is not the figure you charge to you client. Experience, expertise, skill, difficulty, risks, and other factors (cost of transportation, salaries of assistants, etc..) will play on how much the final rate will be for that project. But anything lower then your CODB will mean you should take your business elsewhere.

Now where does usage come into play?

COST OF PHOTOGRAPHY + USAGE = FINAL BILL TO CLIENT

for weddings and other special events

COST OF PHOTOGRAPHY + PRINTS, ALBUMS, etc... = COST OF PACKAGE

Well, just my 2¢... but I hope it helps.

i totally agree to this proposal...having standards minimums rates would protect photography business and also this is for the wellfare of everyone maintaining a standard of professionalism.

This is to protect everyones interests in the photography business.

The First initiative to this is to publish and reach as many as we can to propagate the information among photographers.

The problem if we have an organization is how to avoid politics..this is where things starts to be complicated. Para sakin is proper information sharing sa isat isa...as a start.

I don't know what are the current pricing or charges for photography service. Could somebody share a quick info as to how much minimum we should charge for starters? at least on my part wala ako maapakan na other photographers diba. From this information I could share it among other fellow photogrpahers and set that as a standard for starters.

Talent is talent is talent. Paid or unpaid, signed or unsigned, pro or amateur, the work speaks for itself. There's room for everybody. Even for FRESHMEN like me. Everyday is schoolday for a 42 year old like me. I'm the oldest rookie. =)

well said....your are absolutely right...talent is a talent..

I have to agree with Mr. Aguinaldo's position.

To illustrate why I concur with his position, I'll try to re-tell a story about Pablo Picasso and how he charged a client for a portrait done.

Short version
"Picasso was comissioned to do a portrait of a businessman's wife. The gentleman was greatly pleased with the work, and inquired as to the price of the painting. When he was told the price, he was aghast and angry. Insisting that he could have gotten a portrait done for 1/10 of the price with the painter down the road. Picasso replied that, what he was paying for was not only the piece of art, but the road he had to travel to be able to creat such a piece. The decades of work in perfecting his artform etc..."

So no, the cost of doing business cannot be the only guide to calculating one's cost. People like Louie who have paid their dues should not even have to consider competing with people who undercuts the price so much.

Personally I'm a bit dismayed myself. As I have put myself through formal schooling, and I'm about to finish photography school this year to come back home to the Philippines and hopefully start a successful career in photography.

Do I then have to compete with people charging 2,500 a day for a project that is worht 10 times as much? If I charged the same rate, maybe in 30 years i'll be able to re-coup my investment of getting an education.

If we don't have a price guide in place, i can definately see the industry spriraling down. In terms of quality and skillful photographers. Why would anyone want to work as a professional photographer if you can't earn money from it?

Am I making sense?

I have to agree with Mr. Aguinaldo's position.

To illustrate why I concur with his position, I'll try to re-tell a story about Pablo Picasso and how he charged a client for a portrait done.

Short version
"Picasso was comissioned to do a portrait of a businessman's wife. The gentleman was greatly pleased with the work, and inquired as to the price of the painting. When he was told the price, he was aghast and angry. Insisting that he could have gotten a portrait done for 1/10 of the price with the painter down the road. Picasso replied that, what he was paying for was not only the piece of art, but the road he had to travel to be able to creat such a piece. The decades of work in perfecting his artform etc..."

So no, the cost of doing business cannot be the only guide to calculating one's cost. People like Louie who have paid their dues should not even have to consider competing with people who undercuts the price so much.

Personally I'm a bit dismayed myself. As I have put myself through formal schooling, and I'm about to finish photography school this year to come back home to the Philippines and hopefully start a successful career in photography.

Do I then have to compete with people charging 2,500 a day for a project that is worht 10 times as much? If I charged the same rate, maybe in 30 years i'll be able to re-coup my investment of getting an education.

If we don't have a price guide in place, i can definately see the industry spriraling down. In terms of quality and skillful photographers. Why would anyone want to work as a professional photographer if you can't earn money from it?

Am I making sense?

I agree that there should be a range of acceptable rates, but I disagree with the logic you put forth.

Your Picasso logic seem to dictate a photographer with 20 years of experience should charge more than a photographer with 1 year experience even though both can produce excellent result. Now, why would the younger photographer be penalized just because he/she learned faster? Conversely, why would the old fogey be compensated more when it took him 20 years to get to a point when his output is on par with the younger photographer?

Hate to be the one to tell you this, but your formal education will not guarantee you a "successful career in photography", although that may have provided you with technical knowledge that you can use to go out and compete. And as someone yet to finish school, your Picasso analogy will have you royally screwed because just about everyone out there had travelled more roads (to abstract from your own analogy) than you have at this point.

No, you don't have to charge P2,500 a day. You can charge more than that, with one caveat... your clients better see that you're worth more than P2500.

The point in all this is that, ideally, photographers should be paid commensurate to what they can produce, not how long they've been in the business or what type of education they've managed to get for themselves.

My 2 cents. Oh and by the way, I grew up in nearby Lexington. :-)

The point in all this is that, ideally, photographers should be paid commensurate to what they can produce, not how long they've been in the business or what type of education they've managed to get for themselves.



I indeed concur with this. :)

I agree that there should be a range of acceptable rates, but I disagree with the logic you put forth.

Your Picasso logic seem to dictate a photographer with 20 years of experience should charge more than a photographer with 1 year experience even though both can produce excellent result. Now, why would the younger photographer be penalized just because he/she learned faster? Conversely, why would the old fogey be compensated more when it took him 20 years to get to a point when his output is on par with the younger photographer?

Hate to be the one to tell you this, but your formal education will not guarantee you a "successful career in photography", although that may have provided you with technical knowledge that you can use to go out and compete. And as someone yet to finish school, your Picasso analogy will have you royally screwed because just about everyone out there had travelled more roads (to abstract from your own analogy) than you have at this point.

No, you don't have to charge P2,500 a day. You can charge more than that, with one caveat... your clients better see that you're worth more than P2500.

The point in all this is that, ideally, photographers should be paid commensurate to what they can produce, not how long they've been in the business or what type of education they've managed to get for themselves.

My 2 cents. Oh and by the way, I grew up in nearby Lexington. :-)


We're on the same page. I didn't mean that someone who's older or has more experience should be compensated more vis a vis a person just starting out in the business who has the same talent, or can produce the same body of work.

What i apparently failed to clarify on was that a master, such as pablo picasso, who's quality in work far exceeds that than the person down the street, whether or not the client can appreciate the fine work that was put forth, should be able to charge much more because of his experience and talent. And the only reason he was able to produce great works was the lessons he has learned in life with working in his craft.

And again I do agree with you that an education doesn't guarantee anything, far from it. But at my age, well past schooling years. I have seen what a jump start one can have from a formal education, in any field. And not wanting to start again from the bottom of another career, education for me is an edge I believe I needed. And hopefully saving me some grief trying to play catch up with people with a few years behind them practicing professional photography.

But in the end though, going back to the original thread. If the industry has no pricing standards, and people out of naivete or otherwise charge far less than what is reasonable or "fair". The ability of any photographer to get what is due to him/her will be nearly impossible.

Clients will expect photographers in general to charge less, because what the service is perceived to be of lesser value.

I may have made the mistake of posting my reply today in the thread "Murdering the Photography Industry," instead of to this thread. It's a call to unity, addressed to all photographers so we can preserve the gains made by photographers before us, and so we can maintain the dignity of this profession, which is fast eroding.

"It's a call to unity, addressed to all photographers so we can preserve the gains made by photographers before us, and so we can maintain the dignity of this profession, which is fast eroding."


Is it really fast eroding? you mean on a decline? oh my...
It is just now that I am trying to enter the industry, and I envisioned myself doing this as a full time job.

My prayers and full support to Mr. Louie Aguinaldo's cause.

This will really help out all the photographers wanting to venture in this business like me. What's the status of this plan? :)

I may have made the mistake of posting my reply today in the thread "Murdering the Photography Industry," instead of to this thread. It's a call to unity, addressed to all photographers so we can preserve the gains made by photographers before us, and so we can maintain the dignity of this profession, which is fast eroding.

the first time i posted on a thread about this here at dpp i was purely a hobbyist... now ive taken a few jobs mostly at "friendlier rates."

at present, i have a plan to invest more time and money into this career but the more i consider it the more it hits me that i cannot really expect much in the form of livelihood from this profession knowing what i and some peers were willing to accept as a "job."

i suppose the only way we will really rally behind the seasoned photographers cry for unity to at least create a rate "guide" is WHEN we find ourselves in a situation where we have MUCH MORE TO LOSE than just a "shooting opportunity" and "publishing opportunity."

i've always been supportive of this effort but now more than ever im learning that this is not a battle i can just conveniently shelve or dodge. this battle is raging and i'm finding myself in the middle of the crossfire!

Here is my 2 centavos:

The reality is that no matter what business you are in, there will be someone out to undercut you in order to advance his/her career. Photography is no different. You need to treat it as a regular business.

The photo buyer want to save as much money for his company and you the photographer wants to be fairly compensated for your job.

There is an organization here in the US called ASMP http://www.asmp.org/. It was then called American Society of Magazine Photographers. As an organization, they have a day rate to charge clients for their member photographer. With the advent of digital photography and the Internet, they lost most of their sales to the new Internet photo houses that will sell their photos almost next to nothing

I am sure we will all agree that TALENT is a given here. You need to stand out from the rest. Jason Magbanua charges P95, 000.00 per wedding and he is booked for the rest of the year. His clients are not complaining about his rates for sure. Are you RELIABLE? Can you produce a product no matter what adversities you face? No excuses.

Maintain a good STANDARD and stick to it. If you know that it will cost you P100, 000.00 to do job, and the client turn around to hire another photographer for P6, 000.00 for the same job. Take it as lesson learned. I’ll bet you; the client got what he bargained for. If you perform an excellent job, words will circulate out there.

I am sure this is not a popular advice, but we all have to pay our DUES. We all have to start from the bottom. When David Hume Kennerly http://www.kennerly.com/about.php was a rookie photographer in The Oregonian (Portland, Oregon) he took all the petty assignments that the senior photographers in the paper decline to do. He made his name during the Vietnam War and later become a white house presidential photographer. BTW, during his stint as UPI chief photographer, he instituted of paying ASIAN and western photographer same salaries.

As a sidebar, my background is in photojournalism. I did freelance work in RP and the US. My current work: http://www.richardsilverstein.com/tikun_olam/2004/08/18/wa-man-jumps-of/. In my line of business, my clients pretty much have rates that I have no control on what to charge. So in this particular photo, I was paid their standard rate (The Bremerton Sun). There are exemptions i.e. you have good photos of the Twin Towers in New York City during the 9/11 attack. Then you pretty much can charge you want.

Dan T

hi, any updates on this pls?...

Hobbyist like us need guide. At list a reference rate or tariff. I just do this as a hobby but you can't evade that some people ask me if I can do the project for them. But I don't have idea how to charge. Sometimes I just do pro bono for the heck of shooting as I enjoy photography. If I charge out of par I might jeopardize the industry.

In my profession I was one of the brainchild in pursuing tariff as a reference. We encourage colleague to follow or not go below the tariff. Our colleague are not oblige to follow the exact amount on the tariff but use it as basis or minimum rate. Of course if you feel that you are above the rest in terms of skills etc .... Then you are free to sky rocket your rate but not go below the tariff. I tell you it help a lot of newbie in our industry. As well as improve the standards.

this has been a very interesing and will be very helpful to photography enthusiasts (pro or not). there are a lot of exchanges in this thread and I hope all points are being considered for this cause. this will be a long and difficult process, don't let it stop here.:)

I am no pro (translation - I still have my day job in advertising ... which uses the services of the industry), however this has been an interesting read and I for one would like to support in whatever way I can.

Alan

I just got a shock of my life.hehehe. A client called me up inquiring on how much (with studio lights, high end DSLR, with backdrops) it will cost for a 50 pc. product shoot. Gave her my generous quotation and, all of sudden, she texted me again that they got a photographer who will do the job for P5,000.00! imagine whole day shoot with 50 pcs. (layouts) of commodities. Well...................Thats democrazy! huhuhu

I just got a shock of my life.hehehe. A client called me up inquiring on how much (with studio lights, high end DSLR, with backdrops) it will cost for a 50 pc. product shoot. Gave her my generous quotation and, all of sudden, she texted me again that they got a photographer who will do the job for P5,000.00! imagine whole day shoot with 50 pcs. (layouts) of commodities. Well...................Thats democrazy! huhuhu

I am no pro, and it doesn't affect me directly, but I think this is a sad story. A rate guide I believe will help in away. So, I am in full support of this.

Hi Louie,

I fully support this idea you have presented. Cheers man.

Jeffrey

so, any update on our own Philippine rate guide?

i sympathize with you. this happens not only to photographers but also to graphic artists and video editors (like me).

some people just take advantage of and "exploit" students who want to have something to add to their portfolio and who'd be more than happy to earn a few bucks.

i hope everyone would support this move (including students and non-professionals).

yes, it's a free market but i really hope we could at least come up with "base fees" (i don't know the term) for our services.

I just got a shock of my life.hehehe. A client called me up inquiring on how much (with studio lights, high end DSLR, with backdrops) it will cost for a 50 pc. product shoot. Gave her my generous quotation and, all of sudden, she texted me again that they got a photographer who will do the job for P5,000.00! imagine whole day shoot with 50 pcs. (layouts) of commodities. Well...................Thats democrazy! huhuhu

will give full support to tihs as well in any way I can. it is high time to give full respect to this profession which is absolutely ignored by wanna be photogs out there which is quite a lot. even those in the printing industry line of business sees photography as a way to attract clients to order pirnt materials from them by giving away photography services for free! let's bring it on!

I just got a shock of my life.hehehe. A client called me up inquiring on how much (with studio lights, high end DSLR, with backdrops) it will cost for a 50 pc. product shoot. Gave her my generous quotation and, all of sudden, she texted me again that they got a photographer who will do the job for P5,000.00! imagine whole day shoot with 50 pcs. (layouts) of commodities. Well...................Thats democrazy! huhuhu

Roland,

I share your sentiment. Yesterday, I participated (as subject) in a photoshoot for corporate print and website materials. The photographer appeared to be a veteran in the business (He talked about Hidalgo shops, technical matter on DSLRs, lenses, etc. I also checked him out with Mang Ramon of Mayer).

His gear: D70, 18-135 kit lens, sb800, and a studio light (borrowed from a friend).
His fee for a 5-hour-shoot: P1,300
His rationale for his fee:
1. Gone were the days when he could justify a higher fee by his sheer skill. These days, clients have the mindset that any bad picture can be photoshopped anyway;
2. He was free on that day, anyway
3. He is getting old. He'll book himself on any free time he had, just to make money.

Disheartening....

Roland,

I share your sentiment. Yesterday, I participated (as subject) in a photoshoot for corporate print and website materials. The photographer appeared to be a veteran in the business (He talked about Hidalgo shops, technical matter on DSLRs, lenses, etc. I also checked him out with Mang Ramon of Mayer).

His gear: D70, 18-135 kit lens, sb800, and a studio light (borrowed from a friend).
His fee for a 5-hour-shoot: P1,300
His rationale for his fee:
1. Gone were the days when he could justify a higher fee by his sheer skill. These days, clients have the mindset that any bad picture can be photoshopped anyway;
2. He was free on that day, anyway
3. He is getting old. He'll book himself on any free time he had, just to make money.

Disheartening....

This is a very sad story, but maybe his story has been sad from the beginning or from some point in his career. He might have been a highly skilled photographer, but perhaps, he did not pay attention to the business side of his photography. For a professional photographer to succeed, talent, skill, equipment etc. are not enough. In the same manner - for a business person to succeed, he must have a good product/service to sell.

There is some element of luck, of course, and no one can predict what would or could happen to any career, profession or business. Let's just hope the photographer in this story will not stop at blaming what is happening in the industry for his very low rates, but will look into himself (I am just wondering, why does he still need to borrow lights?). Let us hope he can steer himself into financial success. After all, pricing is ultimately a question of how much we think we are worth to our clients and of course, if our clients agree with that estimate. A low self-esteem results in low quality output and low quality output can only bring in low prices.

I wonder when will the final or draft of price range or rate guide for each assignment? Where should we base our estimates and quotations when asked by the client of our services? I'm asking from an enthusiast point of view, because I know the PRO may have already their rates settled.

I, on the other hand, am wondering: Is anyone working on the draft?

Here are some of my thoughts.

It's easier for some photography sectors to set rates. Customers of portrait and wedding photographers look for the photographer with the style that they prefer (maybe after they've looked around) and accept, albeit with or without some haggling, the photographer's set rates. There may even be several packages to choose from.

The rates for editorial photographers may unfortunately be set by the publications, and which the photographers accept en toto or negotiate for some little extra concessions. I hope there are photographers out there who can command their price for editorial photography.

Unfortunately for advertising photographers, each assignment is unique. While we may have some guidelines, there are no set rates to offer clients. It is only after asking a lot of questions about the assignment that we can arrive at a quotation.

During the days of film, we did have a rate sheet to guide us (for internal use only). Each set up is matched with several columns (35mm, 120mm or 4x5). Then, if they require color negatives (CN), transparencies (CT) or black&whites (BW), then each of the film formats will have 3 sub-columns for CN,CT and BW. If they are ordering only transparencies, the total would seem fair, but if they are simultaneously ordering different film formats and different film kinds, then the total would shoot up. This is when we sort of consider what is fair for the day and if the set ups are difficult or easy, and then give package discounts.

Now that digital allows for the same file to be used for color or black&white, and since some 35mm digital cameras may be better than the very old digital backs, there is a lot of crossovers, and we cannot strictly follow the 35mm, 120mm and 4x5 distinctions.

This is why it has become difficult and confusing to set rates. When other photographers ask me for advise on pricing, I cannot give them pricing in pesos and centavos unless I know all the factors -the photographer's skill, reputation, facilities, staff and availability; the clients' budget or lack of it, their perception of the value of the photographer's work, their particular participation to make the shoot efficient; the work itself - how difficult or easy to do; usage and applications (billboard? mural? website? print ad? etc. etc.

On the other hand, we know our own photographers, facilities, equipment and services and hopefully we know our clients since we've worked with them for years - so it's a bit easier to draw up quotations for our clients. When clients are new, we try to get to know them so we can assess how they value photography or that particular project that we are quoting for.

I am sorry for the long post. I am just concerned that we may all be waiting for this magic rate sheet that maybe NOBODY is working on. I had volunteered before to collate historical data - meaning actual approved quotations of completed projects, but unfortunately, nothing came out of this. It's very frustrating, and it was so even as early as 1978 when I was taking my masters. I tried to do my thesis on the business of advertising photography, and part of that thesis was a compilation of rates. I could not get other photographers to share their information even if I offered them anonymity, and I offered them a copy of the results of my study. I hope this forum will have better luck than I did 30 years

This is a very sad story, but maybe his story has been sad from the beginning or from some point in his career. He might have been a highly skilled photographer, but perhaps, he did not pay attention to the business side of his photography. For a professional photographer to succeed, talent, skill, equipment etc. are not enough. In the same manner - for a business person to succeed, he must have a good product/service to sell.

There is some element of luck, of course, and no one can predict what would or could happen to any career, profession or business. Let's just hope the photographer in this story will not stop at blaming what is happening in the industry for his very low rates, but will look into himself (I am just wondering, why does he still need to borrow lights?). Let us hope he can steer himself into financial success. After all, pricing is ultimately a question of how much we think we are worth to our clients and of course, if our clients agree with that estimate. A low self-esteem results in low quality output and low quality output can only bring in low prices.

================================================== ====

I think that's the price he has to pay for charging so low. He cannot even invest in equipments. Am sure that when his camera breaks down (wag naman sana), he does not even have made ipon para makabili ng bagong DSLR.

Just had a meeting at Festival Mall with a wedding coordinator. Again, the shock of my life, she said that she has found a photo video supplier that can produce: digital images in CD, edited video of the event output to DVD, 11 x 14 blowup, one photog, one videoman, one lightman at..........hold your breath..........P6,000.00! and that comes with a wedding album!

oh, cr#p! this is so....

Just had a meeting at Festival Mall with a wedding coordinator. Again, the shock of my life, she said that she has found a photo video supplier that can produce: digital images in CD, edited video of the event output to DVD, 11 x 14 blowup, one photog, one videoman, one lightman at..........hold your breath..........P6,000.00! and that comes with a wedding album!

ma'am harvey, you're my idol here! it's like learning something new from your EVERY post.

back to the topic, well, i guess an excel file with different pulldowns for every possible criteria will do at the very least. sometimes it makes sense to work from the ground up.

Just had a meeting at Festival Mall with a wedding coordinator. Again, the shock of my life, she said that she has found a photo video supplier that can produce: digital images in CD, edited video of the event output to DVD, 11 x 14 blowup, one photog, one videoman, one lightman at..........hold your breath..........P6,000.00! and that comes with a wedding album!

Don't panic. Take a look first at the quality of their work.

If the quality is bad - that's it - there's no need to bother with them. They will disappear from the scene rather quickly, as they will not get any repeat assignments. Or, at best, they would get only those with very low expectations and very low budgets. I'm sure that's not the market that you are pursuing.

If the quality is good - then it means they have not done their business maths. Just wait for them to go bankrupt. Or raise their prices.

:)

Man, what a wonderful thread and we're lucky to have someone like Ms. Harvey to provide invaluable insights.

I have no plans to go pro, but these are great business tips in general. :)

Check out what this American creative consultant has to say (http://www.burnsautoparts.com/blog/2007/11/27/standardized-pricing/) on standardized pricing. How I wish Filipino advertising photographers could include usage when considering pricing.

Hi Louie: What's happening with your effort to prepare a rate guide for the Philippine photography industry? Let me know how I can help.

Would like to contribute as well. I co own a small web solutions company and would want to donate hosting services for the cause. I can also pledge web programming and development time.

Hope this endeavor pushes thru.

I also agree to limit the committee and then iron out the issues as we go along just so we can have something concrete already. No point wanting to have a perfect system to launch and ending up with nothing to show.

Would like to contribute as well. I co own a small web solutions company and would want to donate hosting services for the cause. I can also pledge web programming and development time.

Hope this endeavor pushes thru.

I also agree to limit the committee and then iron out the issues as we go along just so we can have something concrete already. No point wanting to have a perfect system to launch and ending up with nothing to show.

Thank you Meng for your offer. Since this is was Louie A's initiative, maybe we should wait for him to tell us how he would like us to proceed.

Regards,
Harvey

I would just like to add m thoughts on this...

I think making an industry standard price list is not good at all... As what I've read in a magazine article which I believe that it make sense is that if we set an Industry standard rate for all photographers to comply with then we are no different than Meralco... Not all photographer have the same capability some are good and some are not. If I am a customer then I've seen the rate for a new comer photographer and a more experienced photographer are the same then I would obviously go for the more experienced one. Then what would happen to the new comer??

I believe that those who has a lower price are not trying to destroy the industry but that is their way beaking in the industry. I don't think their lowering their price because they want you to be out of bussiness.

As what mam Harvey said let them be... Let them learn on their own on How to properly set the right price.

Instead of putting price list on the proposed website why not tips and experienced on doing business.

I would just like to add m thoughts on this...

I think making an industry standard price list is not good at all... As what I've read in a magazine article which I believe that it make sense is that if we set an Industry standard rate for all photographers to comply with then we are no different than Meralco... Not all photographer have the same capability some are good and some are not. If I am a customer then I've seen the rate for a new comer photographer and a more experienced photographer are the same then I would obviously go for the more experienced one. Then what would happen to the new comer??

I believe that those who has a lower price are not trying to destroy the industry but that is their way beaking in the industry. I don't think their lowering their price because they want you to be out of bussiness.

As what mam Harvey said let them be... Let them learn on their own on How to properly set the right price.

Instead of putting price list on the proposed website why not tips and experienced on doing business.

While I may personally be against the idea of price fixing (setting fixed rates for everyone - for the reason you cited), I do see the need for photographers to come together to agree on certain terms - terminology, deliverables, responsibilities to clients, job contract terms, etc.

I hope this initiative can push a bit more forward.

so, is there a rate guide now?

so, is there a rate guide now?

Jeff Lui and I met once to get this movement started but that meeting was cut short so we could attend Cory Aquino's funeral. We planned to meet again but the typhoon got in the way.

I'll give him a call to set another appointment. Does anyone want to join us? We'll start with defining terms, deliverables etc. We'll tackle pricing last - as I don't know how to find agreement in that area.

Louie and others - any suggestions?

I agree that there has to be a way setting standards. Digital has definitely made photography more convenient and affordable for many. I see more and more "in house" photographers to lower production costs.

I agree with Harvey, it's not just the pricing but the other things that come with it such as contracts, deliverables, etc.

Not to sound pessimistic, but I think this movement hit a brick wall. Just to get a price guide, took everybody 5 years?

Not to sound pessimistic, but I think this movement hit a brick wall. Just to get a price guide, took everybody 5 years?

Sorry, but I don't think you can start counting time until somebody (or some people) actually start doing the work. Does anyone know who's working on this?

Hahaha, that is the problem. Nobody is "doing" it. Just got the idea of time "5 years" from the first few posts.

"It started I think from the Zoo...2004"

"Then the thread starter...started reviving the movement, 2006"

correct me if I am wrong...

Hahaha, that is the problem. Nobody is "doing" it. Just got the idea of time "5 years" from the first few posts.

"It started I think from the Zoo...2004"

"Then the thread starter...started reviving the movement, 2006"

correct me if I am wrong...

care to explain some more?

sample: "Nobody is "doing" it" - does this mean Adphoto, Jay Tablante, Bella Luce, et. all, are not "doing" it?

another sample: what's funny about all this stuff?

last sample: where or in what sense do you mean you are "correct", so laymen, like me, will know what you are talking about?

Please do not limit your treatise to those sample questions. you may want to consider a much longer explanation.

thanks.

Not to sound pessimistic, but I think this movement hit a brick wall. Just to get a price guide, took everybody 5 years?

Finally, what proof do you have that this "movement hit a brick wall"? What is that "brick wall"?. In your experience, is there any way to surmount his obstacle? Why? Why not?

You think that parties concerned will never see a breakthrough? If so, why? How? Any proof on your end?

I assume that you have omniscience on this matter, may you then suggest how long should it should have taken to get the standards adopted, if at all?

You seem (to me) to know a lot about this stuff, so please illumine me.

No need to get, for the lack of vocabulary "emotional" about my statement. I am just saying that since I started reading this thread. There is still no clear "Rate Guide" still.

In my statement "correct if I am wrong". Hope you get that I meant, "If I am not correct, please enlighten me."

Hahaha, that is the problem. Nobody is "doing" it. Just got the idea of time "5 years" from the first few posts.

"It started I think from the Zoo...2004"

"Then the thread starter...started reviving the movement, 2006"

correct me if I am wrong...

I find that professional photographers are among the hardest groups of people to organize for business meetings. In good times, they will always prioritize a shoot over a business meeting; in hard times, they will prioritize looking for a shoot - or even shooting for free - over a business meeting.

Most professional photographers don't have time, energy or enthusiasm to sit down to talk about pricing, rights, business practices - all the things that would actually ensure that they would have shoots and profits at the same time.

I think this attitude explains why this move has not taken off. I don't blame photographers - their passion is for photography. They prefer to pursue what they love to do, but sometimes, we just have to do what we have to do, whether we enjoy doing it or not. And for professional photographers, the business of photography is one of those activities that we MUST do.

:(

Thank you Harvey, for clearing the air. That is exactly what is in my mind. I am not much of a person who speaks a lot. "more talk more mistake" but sometimes "too little talk, does not get your message across"....well...cheers.

"No need to get, for the lack of vocabulary "emotional" about my statement."
-- That's good advise. I trust that you practice that. BTW, who did your refer to as having gotten "emotional"?

Thanks.

How about applying what is now being used by doctors and computer professionals which is certification? doctors with diplomate and additional degrees and computer professionals who availed of certified training programs have a leg up on non certified colleagues.

However, the same thing is happening when it comes to vendors for websites. When we were looking for people who can revise our website. Quotes were all over the place from P100,000 to P2 million.

Can we get started by dealing first with this question: "Can we agree on an estimate form?"

http://stocklandmartelblog.com/2009/10/30/can-we-all-agree-on-an-estimate-form/

Let's handle the easy work first and work our way up to the tough task of agreeing on a rate guide. I believe that without first agreeing on terminology, deliverables, terms and conditions, credit terms, and as suggested in the above link, on an estimate form, it would be close to impossible to agree on a rate guide.

hi maam harvey! remember me? hehe

I dont know if this was posted here before but here's a good guide to photography pricing:

http://johnharrington.com/dc-photographer/site/pricing/

it is not exactly made for the philippines but atleast people will get some ideas on how to price their services :)

Hi Tim. Of course I remember you. Are you graduating at the end of this semester?

Yes, John Harrington gives good advice. I've listed some books on the business of photography if not on this thread, then elsewhere on this forum. I hope that photographers are reading them.

check out FotoQuote http://www.cradocfotosoftware.com/ just for reference, and hopefully for inspiration and aspiration.

Way back in the mid-'90s(and maybe even prior to that) there was some talk of licensing photographers. That didn't take off...

There is the WPPI for wedding photographers but not all practicing wedding photographers are part of it.

Something else is needed...

Question:

How many people are attending these meeting regularly? Maybe these people can just try to set that price guide and practice the price guide. Then just get people to join the movement. Maybe this way we can see some "results"

Question:

How many people are attending these meeting regularly? Maybe these people can just try to set that price guide and practice the price guide. Then just get people to join the movement. Maybe this way we can see some "results"

The only meeting that I am aware of was the meeting (once) between Jeff Lui and I. If anybody else is meeting about the business of photography or rate/price guides, please let me know as I would like to be part of this "movement" or effort. :)

Hi Tim. Of course I remember you. Are you graduating at the end of this semester?

Yes, John Harrington gives good advice. I've listed some books on the business of photography if not on this thread, then elsewhere on this forum. I hope that photographers are reading them.

Yes maam harvey! hopefully I finish my thesis output... I feel like it will be good for the photography industry... hehe atleast thats what I'm hoping to achieve... I fjust for the design :Grin:

My suggestion is to share historical pricing (in the U.S. - that means jobs that were done at least three months ago) instead of trying to set prices on future jobs. From the way I read photographers, they just need to have an idea of what the going rates are, but do not want to commit to charge the same. Why don't we try just sharing pricing info first?

If photographers are willing to share actual pricing for actual work that has been done and billed, then that would make a good start towards having a "rate guide". The goal is not to have a list of possible set ups with corresponding prices, and to tell or get everyone to follow them. I don't think anyone can or should be compelled to price according to somebody else's idea of pricing.

But to learn and to share about pricing - that's doable.

In the group that would do this sharing - everyone must be willing to share. It will be "give and take."

I'd like to start by sharing to people something I learned from John Harrington: the NPPA CODB (Cost of Doing Business) Calculator (http://www.nppa.org/professional_development/business_practices/cdb/cdbcalc.cfm). Of course, this is for US and thus is in dollars, but you can just imagine that the dollar signs are pesoses.:D

I used it to compute for my costs, and basing on the costs and the number of days I have/want to work in a year, and a little profit margin, I could compute what my "base professional fee" is. Before, I used to set my "base rate" as 8K, but that meant I had to get 200 billable projects, and that seems a bit unrealistic, so I need to either increase my base rate or find ways to lower my costs, for example.