Last December, I covered our Christmas party (http://www.digitalphotographer.com.ph/forum/showpost.php?p=68358&postcount=256) and was able to produce good-enough-photos.
Since then, I am starting to get offers to shoot family portraits and stuff with pay, but I all turned them down, saying that I am not confident enough. They tell me its good and I tell them its not even an inch good (sabay bigay ng site ng DPP) =)
In the back of my mind, I want to do it. I was thinking, it's a good practice for me and if the photos are not good, I'll won't charge them a cent. Problem is, I was so mindful that if I don't present good photos, I just wasted their time...

Last week, a colleague of mine was viewing her sons photos at work and asked me where is the nearest lab for developing. Curious that I am, I looked at the shots. I don't know what happened next but the words "do you want me to pp it and develop it for you?" came out of my mouth.

So I did.

Right after work, I sat on my pc for hours pp'ing then ran to the lab to have it developed. It was already 9:30 PM and it's winter here. I dont even go out for food that time.
Following morning, at lunch break, I ran to the lab to pick-up the prints. No lunch for me.
She was impressed and offered to give me money. "For your time and prints" she said.


And here lies the problem, my mouth was shut and all I can give is a smile.
Seriously, I want to take the money... but I just can't. My friends are saying that Im a fool. That project indeed took time and money.
I was hoping "oh, please just leave the money on my desk" =)

Its not a rate problem nor its a gear problem...
What seems to be MY problem? Im not rich and I WANT money too =)
How do you think I can overcome this "shyness"?
What was your style when you were just starting, maybe I can copy it :)


Ps. I am a S3 user but last Friday, I bought me a new Canon 400D (maybe it'll boost my morale... just maybe)

Thanks for reading guys :)

We have the same problem Red. I find if so difficult to charge people. Since the move up to the 400D, at least you will have the "pro" look in your side. And your confidence will surely increase. And likewise people will naturally assume that you deserve your fees. :)

JUst btake the moiney and say thank you...plain and simple

Ma'am Harvey had an advice on this...

I am adding some more insights...

If one is taking pictures of and for a friend, say for example that you are charging this much...

But if they do not like the photos, then they need not pay anything and they wont have the photos which they do not like...

If they like it, by all means, get the money. Not only for your time, not only for the cost of the prints... but also because of the talent you put in the job!

Same problem here...not just in photography, but almost anything...if I do a service for someone, and that someone offers to pay..I just say "that's alright, no charge"...I guess it just a matter of being confident in what we do... if we feel we're not yet good enough, then thats when we do it for free...But in your case Red people are impressed with your work, and thats the best confidence booster!!!

JUst btake the moiney and say thank you...plain and simple
Thanks for your input... but do you really think I haven't thought of that?

Thanks for the input guys, keep 'em coming =)

I guess, not taking the money is ok as long as your ok with it. But in my case, Im like half-hearted. It's like I want to take the money but can't.

Maybe, I'll just put a fee/donation box or have a friend to collect the fees because I was thinking, if they'll leave it on my desk... I'll put it on my pocket soon as they're gone =) nyahahaha!

Seriously, thanks for your input guys. Someone might have a style that I can copy :)

Red just close your eyes and put out your hand hehe :)
think of it as candy :)

Red just close your eyes and put out your hand hehe :)
think of it as candy :)

if i think of it as a candy...ill open my mouth :D

same problem here red...i dont know what to tell them...

if i think of it as a candy...ill open my mouth :D

same problem here red...i dont know what to tell them...

Hahaha! Goodpoint. :)

Red just close your eyes and put out your hand hehe :)
think of it as candy :)

:D

That's right. Like many things that we do for the first time (or the first few times), we get nervous. Nike has an answer to that - "Just do it." It's okay that you are feeling unsure, but just go ahead and do it. I used to whisper to myself " I'm scared (or embarrassed, or nervous) but I'll do it anyway." After a while, you won't even notice that you're not scared anymore.

Good luck.

P.S. When I was selling encyclopedias door-to-door about 40 years ago (just out of college), my manager said - "just look at your customer and imagine that a check is pasted on his forehead, and that check has been issued to you in the amount of Pxxxx.00. It's a done deal - it's yours. The check is really meant for you - you just need to claim it." The technique helped me gain confidence. It was a tough job but I sold a lot of encyclopedia in my younger days. :)

if i think of it as a candy...ill open my mouth :D

same problem here red...i dont know what to tell them...


more often than not a simple thank you would be more than enough.....remember they offered and you didnt ask for it. A simple thank you would suffice:)

@red

with all things being fair and equal....you really did incur expenses with that shoot and effort also was exerted.....treat the cash that was offered as both being a reimbursement and a token of their appreciation. Reimbursement for the cost of prints and token for the effort that you did.

Bottomline here is that they obviously like the effort on your part.....cash offered was a simple way of telling you that you did a good job! The next step fpr you is just to say THANK YOU and walk away with the cash:D

how about, take the money and treat them out for coffee? insist that your gonna pay for the cup of joe.
since you know them, theyd prolly go for it. if they dont, well, a simple token might work?

Red just close your eyes and put out your hand hehe :)
think of it as candy :)
Good one there Marton. Maybe I'll think of it as something else rather than "bayad"

@Harvey, bunny and dindo, very nice idea guys. Maybe I should think of the money as if it's my own. Kind of "they owe me money" and they are just paying it back thing. And the cup of coffee as a token thing is a good idea as well =)

Thank you guys.

I really think that it is my mindset thats the problem. I keep comparing my work with others kasi. That's why I feel like I am not worthy... but with these ideas, I'll build up confidence :)

:D

That's right. Like many things that we do for the first time (or the first few times), we get nervous. Nike has an answer to that - "Just do it." It's okay that you are feeling unsure, but just go ahead and do it. I used to whisper to myself " I'm scared (or embarrassed, or nervous) but I'll do it anyway." After a while, you won't even notice that you're not scared anymore.

Good luck.
<snip>

Madame,
Most of the times, I think like this. I'll do it. But like I said, I am mindful that if they don't like what I produced, I'll feel like I wasted their time. Plus the blow its gonna give to my morale.
I know Im sounding like a wuss know =)

gotta get me some Nike's :)

Hi Red,

In my case, I always keep the receipts of my expenses and give it to my clients. Sometimes they accept the receipts and sometimes they don't because it's irrelevant for them anymore since you belong as to what Mam Harvey and Robert De Niro calls "Circle of Trust". Even when shooting for family and friends, they know that I'm a professional and still pay me. Even if it is not your main job as a photographer, you still deserve to be paid because as what other DPP members have said, time, effort, skills, talent and other incidental expenses was shouldered by you. Even if they don't like the photos you still incurred expenses. Sometimes the client say things just to get things for free. You also have to remember that what might not be good for us is already good for them. You have a better eye than them and normal folks usually have simple joys and appreciation and that is enough. The client is always right, some are simple and some are quite demanding.

Last year, I had the experience of waiving my out of town fee for a Golf Tournament and Awarding Ceremonies just to give a good deal to my corporate prospect. Price was not an issue and I was promised to get paid first week of January. Until now, I haven't received my check due to said technical problems with their new SAP Accounting System. Internal problems is not my fault and I've already delivered the service and goods, if they paid the caterer, musicians, waiters and other suppliers on the spot in cash, I should also get paid on the same terms and conditions since not doing so would only degrade my integrity as a person and professional.

Since then, I've decided to reward myself what it due me. We are not rich and we do have families to take care of. Utility bills also have to be paid on time and there is no need to be generous if it is not asked from you. I also make it a point that when I turnover the CD Proof, it has good protective casing with my company label as cover and sticker on top of the CD to look professional always and clients love it since it is also customized with the details of the shoot like type of event, date and place.

Hope you won't be shy next time. As what my mentor always tells me "Just Smile, Close your eyes, Accept it and say Thank You". Until then. Best Regards.

<snip>
Hope you won't be shy next time. As what my mentor always tells me "Just Smile, Close your eyes, Accept it and say Thank You". Until then. Best Regards.
Thank you Sir Dino for your generous reply.

The day I was offered to shoot a family portrait, I immediately called a friend who knows the ropes. Trying to ask him how much should it be. He then asked me, "how many hours?" "how many sets?" "off-set?" "change of clothes?"

I was like "huh".
I was lost. I think the black part of my eye got bigger that time =)

I bet my "client" does not even know these things. "Just take a picture of me and my family" she says.

I guess, I also need to have a mentor. Not only for these kinds of matters but also for improvement. Maybe I should be an assistant too. I'd love to be an assistant... so that I can hone my skills while also knowing the business side of things :)

Again, thank you sir :)

Madame,
Most of the times, I think like this. I'll do it. But like I said, I am mindful that if they don't like what I produced, I'll feel like I wasted their time. Plus the blow its gonna give to my morale.
I know Im sounding like a wuss know =)

gotta get me some Nike's :)

We learn a lot when we make mistakes. They are never a waste of time, as long as we learn from them.

The only people who don't make mistakes are those who never try to do anything.

You might want to find inspiration in the story of Thomas Alva Edison (I hope I am citing the right scientist). I will look for this story so I can tell it in the right sequence- but essentially - he had to go through more than a thousand bulbs before he could make one that worked. Can you imagine if he stopped at his first mistake, or even second or third?

We learn a lot when we make mistakes. They are never a waste of time, as long as we learn from them.

The only people who don't make mistakes are those who never try to do anything.

You might want to find inspiration in the story of Thomas Alva Edison (I hope I am citing the right scientist). I will look for this story so I can tell it in the right sequence- but essentially - he had to go through more than a thousand bulbs before he could make one that worked. Can you imagine if he stopped at his first mistake, or even second or third?

Yup, it was Mr. Edison alright :)
I don't mind trying and failing, trying and failing and doing it all over again. I'm used to it. I have done many things with that trial and error system.

What I am afraid Madame is that I would feel, I wasted THEIR time if I will not produce good photos.

I would certainly benefit from that experience for I will know what would work and not work. But for them, hmn... they will know, ReD is not good and he wasted our time posing and changing clothes when we would be better off having dinner kinna stuff.

Thank you Madame for giving time on my posts :)

Yup, it was Mr. Edison alright :)
I don't mind trying and failing, trying and failing and doing it all over again. I'm used to it. I have done many things with that trial and error system.

What I am afraid Madame is that I would feel, I wasted THEIR time if I will not produce good photos.

I would certainly benefit from that experience for I will know what would work and not work. But for them, hmn... they will know, ReD is not good and he wasted our time posing and changing clothes when we would be better off having dinner kinna stuff.

Thank you Madame for giving time on my posts :)

But, Red, from what you've narrated, they were quite happy with you. That's why they offered to pay you. It looks like they have more confidence in you than you in you - but I understand that feeling because even now, we think (not worry) about how not to waste our clients' time.

So, your thoughts are good - what they mean is that you care about the people you do photography for.

John always tells me that fear is good because it helps you to be sensitive and alert to what is happening. Just don't let fear turn into panic.

Take care.

P.S. Please call me Harvey, not Madame.

I guess, not taking the money is ok as long as your ok with it. But in my case, Im like half-hearted. It's like I want to take the money but can't.

Maybe, I'll just put a fee/donation box or have a friend to collect the fees because I was thinking, if they'll leave it on my desk... I'll put it on my pocket soon as they're gone =) nyahahaha!


There's your solution - have a friend collect your fees!!! When you have a regular studio and office - you'd call that friend an account executive, or even a credit and collection officer. :Grin:

Thank you Harvey for your replies and to those who shared out their ideas and experiences.
Tomorrow, work day again, and I'll probably be asked again when I can take their pics since I'll be sending them (officemates) their candid shots I took last Friday.
At times, iniiwasan ko na lang yung tanong marinig so that I'll need not to answer, tsk.

Hopefully, I'll be able to say "sure, I'll be happy to take your photos"
In fact, I am happy and willing naman. It's just the pay thing. I'll try out some ideas posted on this thread

Anyway, thank you for all you time and suggestions =)

Thank you, Thank you :)

Hi Red,

You're very much welcome. Having a mentor who will guide you and help you is a good idea. In my case, I have different mentors for each field of photography. Even though I am already a pro, I still consult my peers and those who are senior than me in the industry to seek guidance and advise. Fear is good but you should turn it to positive energy to help you perform better in each shoot.

Last year, I had my first photoshoot with a multi-national company here in the Philippines. Even though I have experience shooting abroad, it is a different set-up being observed by fellow Filipinos since they are more demanding and critical than other nationalities. I never showed them that I was nervous. I just did my job and they were happy with the results. I also make it a point to have fun in every photoshoot by having music background being played while I'm working. Avoid thinking that you are wasting each others time, just condition your mind that you are giving the best for your friends and clients and it is going to be a fun experience taking their photos.

One of my mentors told me that we will never learn if we don't commit mistakes and that we should not commit the same mistakes twice. Every opportunity to take photos should be an area for us to improve our craft and skills as a photographer and artist. Don't worry, be Happy. Statistics show that 93% of our worries actually don't happen so why give yourself a hard time? Have Fun instead. Until then. Best Regards.

Goodmorning Sir =)
It's 7 AM and Im prepping up for work. With all the post on this thread and the line on your last post, I think I can say "yes" to any offers later =)

"Avoid thinking that you are wasting each others time, just condition your mind that you are giving the best for your friends and clients and it is going to be a fun experience taking their photos."

Hopefuly, soon... you'll be seeing me on statrting a thread on rates or joining a discussion on the same topic.

I am happy. I really feel I can say "yes... with a fee" :)

Thank you

One of my mentors told me that we will never learn if we don't commit mistakes and that we should not commit the same mistakes twice. Every opportunity to take photos should be an area for us to improve our craft and skills as a photographer and artist. Don't worry, be Happy. Statistics show that 93% of our worries actually don't happen so why give yourself a hard time? Have Fun instead.

i like this quote,, just like you red,, my friends are starting to get me as a photographer to birthdays of their anak, portfolios, etc. but i can't say yes beause just like you,, i'm scared that they might not like the outcome of my work,, so maybe one of these days i'll just cross my fingers and do the job,, and just like what mam harvey posted,, i will not charge them if they don't like my job,, but when they like my work,, i will charge them accordingly,, this is a very interesting and educational thread,:)

good luck red

Just an update :)

This morning, I was approached by my officemate whom I developed the prints. She said "so, how much do I owe you?" then I said " it's up to you" habang medyo nasasamid pa ako =)
And then, she handed me 200rmb (1,200php) and said "I hope that is enough"
Remembering this thread I started, I took it. I took it with a smile and said thanks.
Damn, I'm proud of myself :) hehehe.

It was enough, considering I only spent 100rmb (600php) for the prints and cab fare. It turns out that my labor and skill was worth 600php as well =)

Wow! galeng! hehehe =)

Peter, Greg, Christian, Patrick, Marton, bunny, Dindo, Harvey and Sir Dino. Thank you all.

... and Darryl dre, medyo nakaka aliw pag me bayad... parang fulfilling in a certain kind of way. Subukan mo minsan :)
peace tol :)

i hope you now learn to put an appropriate price for your services :)

It's very admirable of you to not charge at the beginning. However, you need to also consider the amount of work that you have put into pp and developing. I think it's just fair that you get paid for it.

Hi Red,

Congratulations on your first pay check. I suggest you open up a bank account and use it as your working fund in your next projects so that you don't have to use your personal funds for your business. You can also reward or treat yourself say a nice meal or buy something photographic in nature like a frame that you can use for your next photoshoot assignment to be included in your package. I'm proud of you. It feels great right? No need to call me Sir Dino since people might think that I'm Dino Lara. Just call me Eric.

@ Daryl,

Thanks for appreciating my quote for the day. Some people criticize me and some people appreciate what I am doing to help others. It doesn't matter what negative things other people say. It does not reflect who you are or the quality of one's work. It only reflects who they are and what type of person you are dealing with. The customer is always right and it is a good assurance to guarantee that they will not pay us if they don't like our work. So far, no clients have complained about my work for the past 11 years except some insecure critics who need affirmation of their works. The best critic for me is the customer and not some wise-guy know it all person. He! He! He!

In this world, we should also know how to survive in the jungle surrounded by predators. Garbage in is always Garbage Out. Have Fun guys and enjoy your professional fees. Best Regards.

Hi Red,

Congratulations on your first pay check. I suggest you open up a bank account and use it as your working fund in your next projects so that you don't have to use your personal funds for your business. You can also reward or treat yourself say a nice meal or buy something photographic in nature like a frame that you can use for your next photoshoot assignment to be included in your package. I'm proud of you. It feels great right? No need to call me Sir Dino since people might think that I'm Dino Lara. Just call me Eric.<snip>
Yes Eric =) it feels great.
I was like staring at the money on my desk (di ko agad binulsa) and I once in a while, I'll find myself smiling =)
I still need to familiarize myself with packages and stuff. And about the bank, I had the same idea... but not in the bank. I thought like I would just keep it together with the things I value :)
Thank you again :)

same problem for me as well specially when its your friend, so what they did they just put into my pocket and say this is for your time and for your effort, i couldn't say any, but to thank them, so i did, its not you charge them but that's your goodwill and for your time.

What a great thread, Red... I guess your situation will almost always be experienced by starters like us who aren't really that good at this but are offered opportunities by friend and families who like what they see.

It makes it harder to "charge" since they're close to us personally...

Congrats on your new 400D as well hehe... Di ka na nakatiis ha.

What a great thread, Red... I guess your situation will almost always be experienced by starters like us who aren't really that good at this but are offered opportunities by friend and families who like what they see.

It makes it harder to "charge" since they're close to us personally...

Congrats on your new 400D as well hehe... Di ka na nakatiis ha.

Reading from the start, it's a good thread indeed.
Problem stated-Advised-Listened-Tried it on for size-Worked :)

It worked dahil na rin sa inyo. Those advises on this thread helped a lot... and that's no B.S.
Every post, there was something to pick up. Pinaghalo halo ko lang. Mix it here and a little bit of that over there sort of thing.

As for the 400D... Oo dre, di ko na natiis. Di ako pinapatulog ei =)

oh btw, new avatar eh :) muntik na kitang di makilala. I was looking for the pic of your son =)

Hi Red,

You're welcome once again. Good to help others who need advice. It's a good idea to set aside the money earned from your photography services since banks sometimes go Off-Line and it would be best to have an envelope in a secured place with your working capital that is On-Line all the time that you can use for unscheduled photo assignments. There will come a point wherein clients will just call you under short notice for a photoshoot. When people are satisfied with your services, there is guaranteed repeat business and referrals so it helps to delight them always.

Until then. May you have more photoshoot to come and extra income for using your skills and talents. Best Regards.

There are also some people who are embarrassed to accept free service, especially from friends, and may hesitate to call on you again if they thought that you would not charge again. So just be gracious, accept what they offered you, say thank you, and feel that you deserved it.

There are also some people who are embarrassed to accept free service, especially from friends, and may hesitate to call on you again if they thought that you would not charge again. So just be gracious, accept what they offered you, say thank you, and feel that you deserved it.

It's paradoxical but it is true...

Accept fees for your service then people will call you for your service!

Hi Red,

You're welcome once again. Good to help others who need advice. It's a good idea to set aside the money earned from your photography services since banks sometimes go Off-Line and it would be best to have an envelope in a secured place with your working capital that is On-Line all the time that you can use for unscheduled photo assignments. There will come a point wherein clients will just call you under short notice for a photoshoot. When people are satisfied with your services, there is guaranteed repeat business and referrals so it helps to delight them always.

Until then. May you have more photoshoot to come and extra income for using your skills and talents. Best Regards.

Thank you again Sir.
I also kept it as a "collection of first" thingy.
It feels good just to look at it =)


There are also some people who are embarrassed to accept free service, especially from friends, and may hesitate to call on you again if they thought that you would not charge again. So just be gracious, accept what they offered you, say thank you, and feel that you deserved it.
Very true Harvey =)
I for one, am like this. Perhaps, I'll let the first one free. But if on the second timethe same friend still won't charge, I will think twice of getting him.

I have heard many stories that it is always better to pay. I believe it's true.
I always pay, lalo na pag big deal ang gagawin. I always think that a person will do a better job if he is compensated (not only by money) rather than a person who will not get anything out of it.

Mas pag iigihan nya =)

... I think I'm on the other side of the box now. I'm looking at it in a client's point of view.

Again, nice tip Harvey! :)

The meek shall inherit...the dirt.

First of all, you have to define who you would be willing to shoot for, for free.

1. That girl you have a crush on
2. Your girlfriend, or whoever it is that gives you good sex
3. The doctor who saved your Mom's life and didn't charge you anything
4. Your buddy who risked his life saving you from getting shot in the back
5. People you feel could help you expand your network of contacts for projects that would eventually pay you.

Then there are the people that you have to charge.

1. Your In-laws. You already spent a fortune on that damned wedding that cost you your life savings. It's payback time!

2. Your rich friends that don't take advantage of you. Avoid the friends that are cheap and DO take advantage of you.

3. Companies that you know make good money.

It's really a question of telling yourself, "these are the people I will shoot for, gratis et amore, and these are the people I will charge to cover my expenses for the people who I shot for, for free."

Once you've got that defined, then everything else is a breeze.

Just admit it. It feels better do a favor for someone and not expecting something in return. It's more fulfilling. Diba? :Grin: