Hmmm.... the year is ending and a new year about to begin and unfortunately I find myself extremely upset and frustrated that I have to rant about this. Last night a particular client who I had photographed before is expanding since business is doing good. So they met with me to discuss a shoot for next Saturday and discuss costs, etc. Wow, they have a lot planned - multiple layouts for billboard and van posters, print ads, calendars, etc. By industry standards, even at the most modest of rates, this would easily price tens of thousands. Suddenly, I was just informed by the client that they got another photographer who is charging P2,500 for the entire project!!!!!!! I have to cry MURDER! That's a merciless stab at the photography industry!

HUH? Php2500?? are they serious? now thats really something to rant about.:Angry:
either they produce really bad photos or they know this photographer personally, either way it's still so darn cheap... i'm sure they'll get what they pay for.. then they'll come running back to you.

What really is upsetting is how this destroys the industry. Clients will begin to expect lower rates. The impression is that photography is cheap, then it becomes much harder for photographers to negotiate decent rates.

When we talk of rates it is really disappointing that some businesses (especially startups) aren't aware of the current rate professional photographers charge for a project. They don't really know what to expect how much they are going to pay for their service. And since they thought that the service would only be "merely" taking "pictures" of their products/services (these are businessmen, they "know" how easy it is to take pictures, rather than the pain of taking excellent photographs), they wouldn't expect to pay such an amount. I personally wouldn't blame the decision.

Awareness should be in order, to both clients and photographers to find a common ground between cutting costs and negotiating decent rates.


2 cents?

Hey Louie...

It happened to me more than once, don't worry, your client will get what they pay for.... whole project for 2.5K?.... i'm sure they will go back to you and will ask you to reshoot everything at your own price. Some photographers, specially new ones, don't know how to charge properly. And most of these guys, i'm sure, don't have the photographer's eye and expertise you have. But you are right, they are the one's who are killing the industry.

maybe the photographer they hired is just probably doing it as an experience rather than to make an income.

maybe the photographer they hired is just probably doing it as an experience rather than to make an income.

The problem with that is that he just set a rate precendent that this client will expect from, not only him, but all photographers.

Hmmm.... the year is ending and a new year about to begin and unfortunately I find myself extremely upset and frustrated that I have to rant about this. Last night a particular client who I had photographed before is expanding since business is doing good. So they met with me to discuss a shoot for next Saturday and discuss costs, etc. Wow, they have a lot planned - multiple layouts for billboard and van posters, print ads, calendars, etc. By industry standards, even at the most modest of rates, this would easily price tens of thousands. Suddenly, I was just informed by the client that they got another photographer who is charging P2,500 for the entire project!!!!!!! I have to cry MURDER! That's a merciless stab at the photography industry!


I guess one really needs to show a great portfolio clients to differentiate a real photographer/artist from a guy with a camera.

that really sucks sir Aguinaldo, but hey stand tall and proud pa rin, everything happens for a reason

maybe the photographer they hired is just probably doing it as an experience rather than to make an income.

How many professional photographers among us actually advise beginning photographers not to charge for their services? We just have to read the other threads to see that even the best among us tend to advise fellow photographers who are just starting out to charge low or not charge at all, to do it for the experience, etc.?

We need to address this issue, and we need to find ways to work with fellow photographers to
a. bring prices of photography to a reasonable level - cost of professional photography has not risen, worse, it has gone down, ignoring the fact that our expenses (salaries, equipment, gasoline, electricity, taxes etc.) have gone up
b. help clients to learn how to differentiate between professional work and less than professional work;
c. campaign for raising standards
d. learn how to negotiate prices and other terms and conditions
e. learn how to protect our rights as photographers
f. raise the respectability of our profession
g. discourage photographers from giving away their images
h. teach photographers that there is nothing wrong with earning from photography - charging properly does not make you less passionate about photography. Neither does it lessen your enjoyment of photography
i. generally, to learn the business of photography and how to be successful in the business of photography
j. work together and be united
k. learn to be more confident, especially when facing clients

Just my 2 cents:

I don't know that photographer that sir Aguinaldo was mentioning, but to be objective, that photographer MAY have lots of talent to be noticed by any client (or at least deemed satisfactory by a client). I don't think clients (eg advertising firms, magazines) won't hire a photograpaher on the basis of cost, but they also try to balance out talent and value for money.

The thing here is that with the advent of digital, photography has become more affordable and accessible to most people. I know a lot of hobbyist wanting to turn pro, and I have seen some amatuers to have lots of talent (in fact, there are some hobbyist that produces better pics than some pros - no offense to the pros here!!!). Most probably, this guy charging for 2500 is doing this just for experience.

Just imagine, several talented hobbyist wanting to turn pro and started charging around 2.5k only. :(

Just my 2 cents:

I don't know that photographer that sir Aguinaldo was mentioning, but to be objective, that photographer MAY have lots of talent to be noticed by any client (or at least deemed satisfactory by a client). I don't think clients (eg advertising firms, magazines) won't hire a photograpaher on the basis of cost, but they also try to balance out talent and value for money.

The thing here is that with the advent of digital, photography has become more affordable and accessible to most people. I know a lot of hobbyist wanting to turn pro, and I have seen some amatuers to have lots of talent (in fact, there are some hobbyist that produces better pics than some pros - no offense to the pros here!!!). Most probably, this guy charging for 2500 is doing this just for experience.

Just imagine, several talented hobbyist wanting to turn pro and started charging around 2.5k only. :(

I understand the need for beginners to get their feet wet, so to speak. But if they're interested in being a pro, two things need to occur:

1) produce professional quality images;
2) charge like a pro (what that is, is the question).

Charging below the norm is not helping his cause as a pro and he is in for a rude awakening.

That is why it is important that the issues of rates and professional accreditation brought about by Aguinaldo, Chua, Tuason, et. al. should be foremost concerns for local photogs. Although I don't work in the local market, I'd lend a hand if need be in whatever capacity.

Just my 2 cents:

I don't know that photographer that sir Aguinaldo was mentioning, but to be objective, that photographer MAY have lots of talent to be noticed by any client (or at least deemed satisfactory by a client). I don't think clients (eg advertising firms, magazines) won't hire a photograpaher on the basis of cost, but they also try to balance out talent and value for money.

The thing here is that with the advent of digital, photography has become more affordable and accessible to most people. I know a lot of hobbyist wanting to turn pro, and I have seen some amatuers to have lots of talent (in fact, there are some hobbyist that produces better pics than some pros - no offense to the pros here!!!). Most probably, this guy charging for 2500 is doing this just for experience.

Just imagine, several talented hobbyist wanting to turn pro and started charging around 2.5k only. :(

I agree that it is possible that the work to be done by that photographer could be of high caliber. All we know is that he is charging extremely low, and as Louie said, he is bringing down the industry, and if we don't do anything, he would be taking all of us down with him.

Even if he is a great photographer and can satisfy clients' requirements for high quality work, if he does not know how to charge properly, we do not expect that he will stay in business long.

However, even if he stayed in business only for a short while, he will still be wreaking havoc on the industry.

My questions are - what are we going to do to help people like him? How can we help him realize that competing on the basis of price is not the only way to compete? How do we help him know what the going rates are? If he wanted to learn how to charge properly, where would he go for advice? What advice would we give him about pricing?

Louie, sorry to hear about that. But as in any service industry, undercutting, price point drop, is part of the territory. But as earlier mentioned in this thread, i doubt quality, delivery time, etc would have been compromised by the buyer or client. He's going to get more than what he paid for, both if the shoot is successful, or if it fails, a good bargain, OR lots of headache.

I hope that the solution to the stated problem will be implementable as I'm sure it will apply to a related problem - that of retailers who sell gray market camera products.

Hmmm... that's bad news indeed although I wonder what kind of finish product this client will get. Sometimes, the client has to learn the hard way that "you get what you pay for". :Thinking:

@ Nick, Harvey,

I agree with what you said. Basically, the tone of my post is more of concern than explaining or justifying the actions of this person charging 2.5K. I believe its becoming a trend right now with lots of guys joining in the "DSLR bandwagon" and some aspiring to be pros.

The way I see it, it poses both as a challenge, problem and wake-up call for pros. Challenge: to further the gap of professional quality work from "newbie" work (seperate the posers from the pros). Problem: to convince the clients the value of work at professional quality. Wake-up Call: The newbies are coming armed with the newest technology and some clients don't notice the difference.

Well said Ma'm Harvey, Nick and Melvin

I just hope we could act on these problems and implement solutions the soonest possible time.

This is bad news but I suppose part of the changing landscape for people who make a living out of photography.

Personally I think two things will happen here. 1) the client will not be satisfied with the service, whether it is the final shot or the missed deadlines and 2) the guy who charged 2.5k will realize half way through his shoot that he's in way over his head and hopefully learns his lesson moving forward.

Of course if this guy does deliver, then I hope he becomes a member of this forum and reads about all the havok he's causing.

Joey Z

Wake-up Call: The newbies are coming armed with the newest technology and some clients don't notice the difference.
I think the above comment says it all.

Technology is the main enabler here. As decent gear gets more affordable, compounded by software such as photoshop making it easier and easier to modify/enhance ones images, I see this only getting worse because of the constant influx of newbies.

From the client's perspective, even if the pro is very good, is the output 10-20X as good as the newbie to justify the same increment in cost? Maybe. Maybe not. I don't know. (Not trying to bash the pros here but just thinking out loud).

As for the extremely low pricing from the newbie, he doesn't know and he may not care. His interests vary greatly from the pro photographer trying to earn his living.

I am not sure if anything can be done to prevent this type of situation from happening in the future, but I agree that doing something is better than not doing anything at all.

I wish all the pros out there all the luck. The future doesn't seem bright for the industry.

wait wait...

who said that the cost will be 2,500 pesos?

the client?

or the photographer itself?

if it's the client, he/she might just be telling you that to haggle.

I doubt if you asked the photog him/herself his/her rate....=p

Who then will you teach, the aspiring photographer to price right, or the market to select (technically) right???

Will technology, as Zandy has pointed out be always the enabler? Will skill ever be an enabler in a price sensitive market like ours? What about long term relations? Market will always change and adopt into the ever changing technology market. Eventually, i foresee the DIY service in the horizon with a fast learning curve with digital technology. With the price of labor in the Philippines, it may eventually be cheaper to get technology and hire a photographer con graphics artist con marketing in a company that has continous requirements, than farm it out. Then this gives them "exclusivisity" to the "skill" of the photogrpaher. It just becomes a "given" like knowing how to work a computer...........

I guess as in other industries, we always have to re-invent ourselves. Its a vicious cycle, that's been happenning long time ago, it just gets faster everyday.

My .02 cents.

@ Nick, Harvey,

I agree with what you said. Basically, the tone of my post is more of concern than explaining or justifying the actions of this person charging 2.5K. I believe its becoming a trend right now with lots of guys joining in the "DSLR bandwagon" and some aspiring to be pros.

The way I see it, it poses both as a challenge, problem and wake-up call for pros. Challenge: to further the gap of professional quality work from "newbie" work (seperate the posers from the pros). Problem: to convince the clients the value of work at professional quality. Wake-up Call: The newbies are coming armed with the newest technology and some clients don't notice the difference.

@Melvin - I agree with you one hundred percent, including your assessment of the challenge and problem we face. What is happening is indeed a wake up call for those of us in the industry to get together, be united and to do what we can to protect that which we like to do. Through the years that we have been facing these problems, we have addressed the question "what are we going to do?" and we know the answers - to unite photographers; to inform and equip each other with knowledge, skills and ethics; to work together, including to do marketing for the industry to get clients to know and appreciate our work etc., but now the question is "when are we going to do it?

Who then will you teach, the aspiring photographer to price right, or the market to select (technically) right???

Will technology, as Zandy has pointed out be always the enabler? Will skill ever be an enabler in a price sensitive market like ours? What about long term relations? Market will always change and adopt into the ever changing technology market. Eventually, i foresee the DIY service in the horizon with a fast learning curve with digital technology. With the price of labor in the Philippines, it may eventually be cheaper to get technology and hire a photographer con graphics artist con marketing in a company that has continous requirements, than farm it out. Then this gives them "exclusivisity" to the "skill" of the photogrpaher. It just becomes a "given" like knowing how to work a computer...........

I guess as in other industries, we always have to re-invent ourselves. Its a vicious cycle, that's been happenning long time ago, it just gets faster everyday.

My .02 cents.

You are very right, Derrick. It is already happening - many people are getting into photography and taking jobs away from the traditional professional photographers. Digital photography has removed the threshold that divided the skilled photographers from those who are just starting. Whereas before clients needed to get professional photographers whom they can trust because they won't get results until a few days after, and we could not afford to make mistakes because we did not have Photoshop to erase/modify/edit out those mistakes - now, results are instant and adjustments can be made before set ups are dismantled (for those of us in advertising). What is not appreciated is the fact that edited files are not as good as original information - but that's another issue.

You are also right that photographers have to re-invent themselves.

But the solution to the problem is not just in the hands of individual photographers - there must be concerted efforts to face the challenges that threaten every professional photographer - even those who are just starting now. Have you noticed the ads that promote print advertising - print is threatened too - it appears that people in print advertising are recognizing the problem and are banding together to save their industry.

I hope to see photographers united in facing the challenges of tomorrow - oops, tomorrow is already here, and as you said - Derrick - it's happening faster and faster.

wait wait...

who said that the cost will be 2,500 pesos?

the client?

or the photographer itself?


Funny, As I read this thread… I remember years ago, we used to be one of the most expensive advertising photographers in town, yet we had quite a list of clients. Then when digital photography came in, it open the gates to hundreds of wannabe photographers and create havoc to the industry.. The same people who first undermined the industry are now complaining. Pecking order is the name of the game. Sure it hurts us badly, we have to work four times more for the same amount of money we used to earn. Even today, we have adjusted our rate to a reasonable level. Prospective clients would call on us for our estimate cost on their project and in turn they would look for other photographers to bid in the same project… all the other photographers would do is lower their cost 50% and half of time, the client would give them the job.
I say HALF of the time, not all the time.. We believe we will survived in this mess, because we have the talent, the ability, the equipment and passion to delivery what we promise. Nothing less, but more to make sure we keep Clients whose Quality is important to them.

The cheap photographer will not stay long in the industry.
The cheap but good photographer are more of the problem.. they are the ones that will pull us down.
The good ones – they have their own battles to be won, staying alive in this ever changing scenarios, How long will they survived with the shrinking market and expensive equipment to buy.
For us, we know we will survived, as long as the passion and quality there. Giving the best value for their money.
How to stop this practice? I really don’t know.

As what Charles Darwin says “ Survival of the Fittest ”:Grin:

Sounds like its time to start a CERTIFIED PROFESSIONAL program.

MBAs get paid better than BA, Doctors more than pharmacists, CPAs more than bookkeepers. CERTIFIED PROFESSIONAL photographers should also get paid more than amateurs.

Sounds like its time to start a CERTIFIED PROFESSIONAL program.

MBAs get paid better than BA, Doctors more than pharmacists, CPAs more than bookkeepers. CERTIFIED PROFESSIONAL photographers should also get paid more than amateurs.

I second the motion! so when do we start?

can you make it illegal without legislation for non-certified professional/amateur photographer to take pictures for pay?

Certification is well and good. But aside from the usual questions you can ask concerning the rules for exposure, how else can you objectively measure the competency of a photographer?

Hi Zandy,

Look a the program implemented by the PPA in the US. Their CERTIFIED PROFESSIONAL program is what I hope can one day be implemented in the Philippines. There are procedures for this and going into how to do this is best reserved for another thread.

I know we had several discussions on this board about developing some price guide for photography. Its a noble idea but I feel will never work because at the end of the day, you will always have those photographers who will offer predatory rates just to get a job. Being CERTIFIED, the client is at least assured you know how to take pictures.

At the end of the day, the client still makes the decision, certified or not. But at least if you are certified, you can justify your prices.

Aside from the certification program, I hope that one day people will follow a code similar to the National Union of Journalists.

NUJ Digital Fees Guide http://www.nuj.org.uk/inner.php?docid=893
NUJ Freelance Fees Guide http://www.londonfreelance.org/feesguide/index.html

Certification well and good. But aside from the usual questions you can ask concerning the rules for exposure, how else can you objectively measure the competency of a photographer?

First are the basic acid tests.....

Then on to series of technical exercises such as proper demonstration of camera movements in large formats, selective focus of 2 objects among many, lighting exercises, Scheimpflug, film developments, metering tests, still life tests, vertical/horizontal (architectural) tests, printing, studio equipment and props tests, etc. etc. etc.

Then on to written tests .........

Then on to portfolio critique based on technical and creative merit....

Then have them deal with models and their freakin' entourages. :Grin:

an independent governing body or a commission who would certify photograpehrs who then would comply and abide by the rules and guidelines of the association including standard pricing.
I agree w/ nick
- basic test on competency
- basic photography knowledge and know-how
- camera application
- maybe a written test (though some may be very good at written tests but fail on actual application and vice versa)
- and a 10 page portfolio (judged on layout, design, theme and print quality)

...though make licensing too hard then no one would bother, make it too linient then we're back to square one'

this would not only set standards and rules for the industry but would also protect the standard of work given to clients. P2,500 for all that work, then in a service oriented industry people will soon expect a lot more for a lot less.

He he he, the guy who charged Pesos 2,500.00 for the job will also get the certifications, test, accreditation, create his portfolio. do all the required excercises and pre-requisites..............pass it with flying colors...........and still charge pesos 2,500.00.

Now you have just created a bigger accredited cheaper expert predator. The certification will never solve that.

Tell the equipment vendors to sell their equipment higher, then you make it less affordable. Make Photoshop license and other SW related products MORE expensive, and implement piracy. Start with this, and you get to weed out some head aches.

I beg to differ Derick. Certification should not come easy and should not come overnight. People in all industries take advanced training so that they can increase their rate, not lower it.

The PGA Class A Golf Professional charges a higher lessons rate than the Assistant Pro because he has gone through the necessary training to do so.

I second the motion! so when do we start?

Third!

Where do I sign up to start my training?

However I do have to agree with Derick, that some people will get accreditation but will still charge unbelievably low rates. The solution to this is to kick them out of the organization so they can no longer use the logo etc.. in there business.

However, understanding the mentality of the Filipino I doubt any of this will ever really change the current situation.

Mike

Besides when you are a pro photographer. you do not only kill the competition. you also kill yourself. imagine charging a Php 2,500 for that kind of contract (multiple layouts for billboard and van posters, print ads, calendars, etc). how would you make a living doing your job. actually it's overkill in my opinion. A friend asked me once if i'm going to pursue my hobby ( photography ) into a business since i am thinking of putting my own business . but sadly, i can't consider venturing to this business because of the competition.

Third!

Where do I sign up to start my training?

However I do have to agree with Derick, that some people will get accreditation but will still charge unbelievably low rates. The solution to this is to kick them out of the organization so they can no longer use the logo etc.. in there business.

However, understanding the mentality of the Filipino I doubt any of this will ever really change the current situation.

Mike

so maybe part of the curriculum is to educate the photographers about proper charging of fees.

btw, i also agree with the training/certification. i'm also a newbie in photography and having this training/certification is what us newbie's needed

I beg to differ Derick. Certification should not come easy and should not come overnight. People in all industries take advanced training so that they can increase their rate, not lower it.

The PGA Class A Golf Professional charges a higher lessons rate than the Assistant Pro because he has gone through the necessary training to do so.


Oh Nick , I'm with you on that certification should be most difficult to hurdle at that level. At the end of the day, after all is said and done, price drop still remains the problem. The bigger you are, the more it become most difficult to be flexible through out the entire spectrum of the market. The small guys, will run around giving service freebies only to do price cuts. The tools (pre-processing and post processing) in a market like the Philippines is still very much available to ALL.

Different from other services, time to market in this industry has significantly be shortened by technology. I've seen awesome PS work of "newbies" who drive illegal SW from PC's to Mac's.

Under what "national emergency power" will "institutionalizing the rules" be governed under? Will the PRC make a new classification for ProPhotographers? Is the industry in need of a "IATA" version of the Travel Industry? What benefits will its members gain over non-members for proper certification.

Much is needed to craft the holy grail for this industry. Intresting discussion thread.........:)

i agree with john.. the survival of the fittest.

the good will stay and the weak will go away.

each year we see the same problem of newbies coming in and offers new and cheaper prices as a means of competition. heck, i was even one of them when i started. events like this will never go away. paulit ulit lang yan every year and its a reminder for us to do better then everyone else to stay ahead of the competition.

like derick said, even with certification, you cant be sure that no one will charge php2500 again for a project. kung kailangan na talaga ng pera, any oppurtunity will do. also factor in the law of supply and demand.

like driver's license, you need one to operate the motor vehicle as stated by law. but how many drivers out there are driving without one? how many non-pro golf trainers are out there teaching for the fun of it?

instead of telling what/how the others should charge, i think its better to improve your skill and folio and make yourself worth the rate you feel is right for you. be php50k per layout or php2500 per project.

i also agree that certification isnt going to magically alter the way the clients look at photographers. At the end of the day the client looks at the samples and decides whether what he sees is worth the price he is paying. If the client thinks the photographer is good enough and is only going to cost him 2,500 then he just made a great deal.

Not having a certificate isnt going to hamper how he sells his services. Let's say the industry puts into effect some sort of policy that only certified photogs can get into the professional scene. Then that would only start some sort of a black market trade on services. It may even give way to a new profession of brokering non-certified photogs, etc etc.

What I think would change the whole scene is if these people are educated to account for their costs, how much did that shoot cost me? Is the 2,500 enough to even cover the costs? Naturally, if the person sees he is losing money he'd charge more.

Then comes the question of margins, how big is big? This is where value proposition becomes the important question. What are you providing the customer to make that price tag reasonable? What does the customer value more?

The industry may even end up being an industry where cost-efficiency and control become the name of the game, much like distribution. Discounts/margins are set and set very low, it is how we skillfully minimize our costs which will dictate how profitable we are.

Economies of scale become important, technology can become a burden or a god-send. Market segmentation becomes crucial and value proposition and cost control become the drivers of success. Not a pretty picture.

so maybe part of the curriculum is to educate the photographers about proper charging of fees.

btw, i also agree with the training/certification. i'm also a newbie in photography and having this training/certification is what us newbie's needed
I agree with Iron mike coz knowing the Filipino mentality even if you educate them about proper charging of fees you there still is a big chance that they will still charge freakin low rates just to get the job or kill their competition regardless if they will kill photography or not..... typical crab mentality

@mike

Did you get my message can I get the "stuff" of do I wait for you to come home?

This is a very good thread, especially for people like me. I have been shooting events and weddings for 2 years already, and much as it seems somewhat of a long time, I still think of myself as a newbie who still has much to know and learn.

I like the idea of a certification program, but I agree that it's very hard to measure a photographer given the technology available these days. Photoshop and RAW make studio work and getting the correct exposure more forgiving, Canon's E-TTL2 technology takes a lot of estimations out of flash photography, camera LCDs and histograms allow more information about good exposures and compositions instantly available. In this day and age of technology making good exposures and compositions available at your fingertips, plus there are multiple ways of getting the same result, where do we start in gauging a photographer?

In my case as an example, I use an ST-E2 and 2 EX flashes to do some studio portraiture work to save money and weight, and I shoot in RAW to make the slight adjustments to the image as needed. I took a class from sir Jay Alonzo to familiarize myself with the basic principles, and pretty much meshed what I learned with what my gear allows me to do. Given my setup, I find that I don't really need a meter since the camera gives me a basic measure that I can work from. Adding to this issue is the fact that a client will look at the end result and not the steps needed to get there. How can we justify needing a complex exam given the technology allows you to get essentially the same result?

I've encountered clients who tell me that they like my work but ask if I can charge as low as so-and-so. If you like my work don't you think I'm worth more than so-and-so? :D

It still irritates me when clients ask for a sealed bid and folio submission but all they look at are the bids. How do I know? Because I've talked to the other guys who won the bid and they sort of forgot to submit their folios.

You know, this could be a ploy to get lower rates out of photographers. Businesses don't really care much about quality. What they're really after is the bottomline -- profit. Professional photographers mustn't allow themselves to be treated so badly. Don't accept fees that you know are not commensurate to your talent. This is the only way you can get respect for your profession. It's also good if you can band together.

in marketing there is a strategy they call loss leader. for newbies this is a very good strategy. they will accept projects at a loss just to earn enough credentials. then start raising their price on what the market can bear.

just a thought, maybe, your reasonable price is not really reasonable.

remember, you are complaining against photographers just like you, who also want to earn a living.

why not talk to them? maybe, there such thing as friendly competition.

Sounds like its time to start a CERTIFIED PROFESSIONAL program.

MBAs get paid better than BA, Doctors more than pharmacists, CPAs more than bookkeepers. CERTIFIED PROFESSIONAL photographers should also get paid more than amateurs.


mmm... nick, i think i read in one of the threads here mr john chua saying to a photographer asking for advice on how much to charge that if he can produce results comparable to a professional photographer, he should charge as high as a professional...

i have a lot more thoughts on this thread... coming from just a hobbyist...

i haveto compose the reply properly...

This is thinking out loud...

If I am a new photographer and I am very good at it, how do i start? Make a portfolio and look for clients which you will regard not only as a client but as someone who can expand your portfolio, experience, and network. So, if I charge just like an established professional, the professional with the proven track record will get the job. How do I compete for clients? One on the options would be to lower the price of the service. But I would agree 2,500 is insanely low. If I am not that good a photographer, there is an added reason for charging a low rate.

Creating a professional organization might not be the solution. It will most probably lessen the problem, but to what degree? I do not know.

I am a doctor by profession. We have a lot of certifying organizations and we have a lot of laws governing the practice of our profession. However, there will be hilots who will be earning more than some doctors. It is illegal to practice medicine without a license but people find ways to get around the law. A professional organization of doctors once said, "we will not accept the fees stated by HMOs(Health Maintenance Organizations) and health insurance companies. So their organization of about less that 500 specialist banded together and made it a part of the organization's rules to prohibit accepting fees less than that which they agreed upon.

However, If you have about 20-30 new specialists in the field graduating each year, a couple or more is bound to accept lower fees. The result, they eventually give in and the rule is there but now is not being followed.

This is a field of specialty in medicine for which one has to have at least 15 yeas of education after high school.

Photographers really have to think hard to survive and to uplift the standards of photography.

I am just a hobbyist. However, people might someday ask me to do a "photography work" for a fee. I assure you I won't charge 2,500 pesos. I will only agree to the job if I can deliver like a professional and I will charge like a professional. That will be a lot of practice till that happens!

I am sorry about this long reply. I take note, respect, and agree with the professionals posting here. I always read the inspiring and enlightening posts of ma'am Harvey and sir John in the thread that I am reading.

Again, the thoughts in this reply maybe raw... because this is me thinking out loud.

Newbies to pro pricing are also reading this interesting thread. Assume only they do not know how to professionalize their service pricing. Assume they are as good as the pros outside technically.

Now, you have more or less an even field. There may be some wisdom for prophotgraphers to give free seminars and advise on the "business" segment of professional photography. If they want to turn professssional, they must have spent significant time practising their craft, and is ready to offer their services. It is safer to assume they are "AS GOOD AS THE PROS". Then all that is left are the "right pricing issues" which is the "very bone of contention " of this thread to begin with.

Share your knowledge of business, then maybe, decent profitability for all will soon be on the horizon. It is safer to assume that they know less of the business pricing, than they are predators in the same field.

Happy New Year!:)

as a newbie I would appreciate Pro's to give us a rate guide. the minimum and the maximum. we can start helping the industry by applying these rates when dealing with clients. To date I dnt know how to charge a client, particlularly for advertsing . If possible send me a private email if you dnt want all to see your rates.

I wana help the industry even if Im just starting out.But I need ppl to guide me, so I ask some friends how much they charge for a certain shoot. but its defintley not 2500 for a whole layout.!!!
May we all have a happy new year !!!!

mmm... nick, i think i read in one of the threads here mr john chua saying to a photographer asking for advice on how much to charge that if he can produce results comparable to a professional photographer, he should charge as high as a professional...

i have a lot more thoughts on this thread... coming from just a hobbyist...

i haveto compose the reply properly...

It's because the word "professional" in the world of photography is diluted and don't mean much nowadays.

It's because the word "professional" in the world of photography is diluted and don't mean much nowadays.

I agree Nick. I actually read in this forum someone asking when does one consider a photographer a professional. Someone answered, "if you are charging for your services, then you are a professional." In one aspect this is true.

But photographers may benefit from a professional organization to define who really is a professional.

A lot of insights from ma'am Harvey in another thread deals with this.

How do I compete for clients? One on the options would be to lower the price of the service. But I would agree 2,500 is insanely low. If I am not that good a photographer, there is an added reason for charging a low rate.



Like you, I am just thinking out loud...

I am glad that you said lowering prices is just one of the options. This is very important for photographers going into the business of photography to know - that there are other ways of competing. Once, an ad agency person was complaining about how he had to talk to many different people to produce a print ad - photographers, production designer, caterer, talents etc. He asked why we could not operate like the film production companies - handling everything. So we did. We trained one of John's assistants to build sets and props, trained one of the AEs to do production work - sourcing talents, looking for locations etc. We got the job, and we continue to get jobs this way.

Through the almost 34 years of doing advertising photography, I have learned a lot from my clients. We are always looking for ways to serve them better. They are the best source of ideas on how to out-do your competitors - just listen to them tell you what they need.

Having said that, however, I would also advise photographers who would like to become professional photographers to take up business courses and be members of trade associations or business fora. I have seen many talented photographers fall by the wayside because they can't handle the business part. It is not easy for me to plead for the business side of photography because it may sound like I am blowing my own horn (since I am not a photographer but a business person). But if other photographers want to learn the business of photography, then I am eager to share what I have learned through the years and continuing to learn even now.:)

Newbies to pro pricing are also reading this interesting thread. Assume only they do not know how to professionalize their service pricing. Assume they are as good as the pros outside technically.

Now, you have more or less an even field. There may be some wisdom for prophotgraphers to give free seminars and advise on the "business" segment of professional photography. If they want to turn professssional, they must have spent significant time practising their craft, and is ready to offer their services. It is safer to assume they are "AS GOOD AS THE PROS". Then all that is left are the "right pricing issues" which is the "very bone of contention " of this thread to begin with.

Share your knowledge of business, then maybe, decent profitability for all will soon be on the horizon. It is safer to assume that they know less of the business pricing, than they are predators in the same field.

Happy New Year!:)

Yeah and it should start this February at the Photoworld where you will have around 400 photographers registered for their classes. Rather than just talk about photography technique, a good dose of Business Photography 101 might be necessary.

The more I think about this thread, the more I get concerned because if aspiring phoitographers try to penetrate this industry full-time, I think they will be in for a real slap in the face.

I was speaking to the art director of a pretty popular men's magazine around three weeks ago since DPP mag is printed with the same printing press. I was commenting on how I liked their last two covers. He told me its because they signed a contract with Mr. Big Name photographer for a 6-cover package. The rate per cover? Put it this way, a buffet dinner for five at Shangri-La Circles restaurant would cost more.

As much as I am for a Certification Program, it will never work if photographers who have supposedly established themselves still agree to working for champoy money.

The more I think about this thread, the more I get concerned because if aspiring phoitographers try to penetrate this industry full-time, I think they will be in for a real slap in the face.

I was speaking to the art director of a pretty popular men's magazine around three weeks ago since DPP mag is printed with the same printing press. I was commenting on how I liked their last two covers. He told me its because they signed a contract with Mr. Big Name photographer for a 6-cover package. The rate per cover? Put it this way, a buffet dinner for five at Shangri-La Circles restaurant would cost more.

As much as I am for a Certification Program, it will never work if photographers who have supposedly established themselves still agree to working for champoy money.

Its true, Nick. Sad to say, the best years in advertising photography are gone. my main concerned right now are what the future hold for my daughter and my photographers. its a world wide problem since the digital photography came in. We are not alone. I dont know the solution and I dont think there is. Yet I know some of us will succeed and will soar to greater height in this field. Its a matter of identifying what fields in photography will survive. You guess is as good as mine. John

Yeah and it should start this February at the Photoworld where you will have around 400 photographers registered for their classes. Rather than just talk about photography technique, a good dose of Business Photography 101 might be necessary.

I tried doing the same thing at last year's Photo Congress. I was supposed to talk about basic photography. I used the opportunity instead to talk about the business side and how charging low hurts the industry. I got lucky though. There were a couple of participants from the province who had consulted me in the past prior to setting up their respective photography businesses. Both of them shared testimonials and concurred that it was illogical to have a pricing scheme that hurts the industry and their business.

Isn't there an organization especially for advertising photogs (AAP) that is supposedly monitoring pricing?

Were they successful in governing their members?

Why not post how much the industry charges per situation of lets say a product shoot? I know there are a lot of variables in a shoot...yadidi yadada but give at least a ballpark.

First of all, people seem to talk of the "photography industry" as one homogenous entity. That's the obstacle to understanding and making sense of it all, right there. When you thus try to apply a solution, it won't work or it will work, but not always.

The "photographic industry" is not a single one type thing. It is composed of sub-segments and you must address it individually. This is why the Certification program will fail or pricing structures will fail as some other ideas presented here. And yet, it might work for some segments -- within the same industry.

For example, having certification for the adverticing industry or glamour photography, might work. But apply that to wedding photography, it won't work. Why wouldn't it work? Well, in adverticing, the entities are not as many and mostly . Aling Cenang's Carinderia will not even pay P800 for adverticing photography, but MacDo will.

And how will having an organization or certification work for wedding shooters? Will Nick or Dino Lara be welcome to service the P3,000-5,000 photo wedding market? Then there is the issue of volume. I don't know the stats, but it's safe to say there are probably at thousands of people getting married a year and not all can afford a P50k or 100k package. So, do you think these guys at the bottom end will spend some time getting certification?

Also, I am wary of certifications and groups. if you ask me, in time, these same organizations or groups will become barriers to entry in itself and just become an "old boys" club preventing innovation within their own subsegments. Who amongst us is to say what "good" photography is in our market segments? Who is to set the standard and who says that those standards are acceptable?

In the wedding segment, will a group certificate my work if I still charge P3,000? Darn, if I let anybody tell me if my work is good or not whether it's P1 or 1,000,000 pesos! I'd like to let my client tell me if my work is good or not.

And even if you have your way and got this backed by congress, so wedding photographers must get certification, you still have problems.

1 . The low end have some different and even strange tastes. If I shoot and cut off the head, or shoot the hand or the finger with rings, or get a nice blur/bokeh of the background, or a silhouette shot, the low end client things that's bad photography or I am wasting his prints on the album. Are these certifying group going to launch a nationwide campaign to "educate" or enlighten these people on "good" photography? And who is to say what is "good" or "bad" Years ago, if you tilt your shots you are a "bad" photographer, now, it's used now and then for effect. You guys are willing to have an examination on this? How about cropping of head or purposely overexposing or underexposing. It seems that many forget that photography is not an exact science and that art is precisely made when some rules are obeyed and some broken.

2. If I get a certification, is the group going to censure me for charging less? Fine me? Disenfranchise me? Who dictates prices? Wouldn't market forces be a better judge for pricing in the wedding sub-segment?

3. And even if you do get these even enacted into law, who is going to force my friends who do low end weddings to comply? What are you going to do, sue them? Disenfranchise them?

4. Are you willing to take the slack for these thousands of wedding/event shooters who charge P1,500-5,000 per event?


How about really specialty photography? How about Romy Ocon whose passion is bird photography? Who is to set standards there when there aren't that many in that area. Some months ago he just sold some photos of birds for U$5,000. You guys want to certify and create standards for Romy and like him?


I say, identify the type of photography you do and discuss the viability of certain solutions there. But don't do it cart blanche. Certification or creating a pricing structure for some segments of photography won't work. It might for some (e.g. maybe adverticing), but most certainly, I'd like to see how wedding guys are going to enforce these pricing or even certifications.

One thing I do see clear that is common regardless of segment, and John Chua hit it on the head. I'd be afraid of the very good photographer but charges so little.

Personally, I am not scared of the guy with a 1D mk2n and a 1Ds mk2 with a line up of L lenses. I'd see his/her work first. But I'd be scared of a guy with an FM2 or a P&S that deliver fantastic work but charges so little. Now, that's the threat.

But the question now is this -- Who charges so little but does really do good work?

I can't speak for other segments of photography, but I can tell you, that in my area, weddings and events, I have friends who have better gear than I have, but can't charge my rate. I can always go to their target market and wreck havoc there. So, you see, from their POV, I am their threat. But why would charge P5k or 10k for a wedding shoot? So, I am not threat to them anymore, because I have moved up the ladder.

Am I a threat to the Pilars, the Dino's, Lito Sy's, etc? Nope, not yet. But you see, the wedding market is shaped differently. It's so big and if at the top there are few. And marketing there is different. Even if I have the resources to get the top gear and hire the top people, marketing and name recognition is paramount in the top tier.

Now, nobody talks of top supplier overall from Mandaluyong. But he understands marketing, and he understands workflow, and networking. Try doing 700 weddings a year and gross over P20M and you wonder how it is done. It's simple really. He hit the mid-market, basically, the P20-40k market. Used his superior glib of talk and marketing skills plus his good networking of getting other shooters.

And there are others just on the side, grossing 5M-10M/yr, who you won't read in these boards and who could care less with certification or standards. They know and concentrate on the business side of it. Well, it's not that they don't do good work, but they know they don't have to be very, very artsy about it. They understand their clients and work on that to deliver the goods within "high" standards w/c they know won't please the critics, but will please their clients. They couldn't care less if they don't get envited to photo congress' or be guest speakers or have workshops, or win awards, or what not.

As far as newbies and technologies go, I am not worried. At least in the segment of photography I am in. But if I were on the bottom tier, I'd be worried. This 2007, I predict a brand new dslr kit will cost P25k. So, now every tom, dick, and harry, can enter the industry. It's called "commoditization" and the lowering of cost has lowered to barriers to entry. It wasn't like 3-4 years ago, when a dslr costs P90-100k for body only. If you were a bottom operator who charges P3k for a wedding, that's about 30 weddings you have to shoot to pay for your gear. But now, a 350d or d40 is around P33k. That's just 10 weddings. And a bottom ender, shoots about at least 50 weddings/events a year, more likely 80-100. Now, that's doable.

If you have an MBA, you'd understand Michael Porter's issue on competitive advantage and I can tell you that digital photography has lowered the barriers to entry. But Michael Porter also said, that there are 3 generic strategies for competitive advantage. Cost, differentiation, and segmentation. If you play around these 3 generic variables and do it well, you'll find out how to gain competitive advantage when your competitors are only hitting the low cost strategy.



I d

mel, your last post is well said. nothing more to add.

Mel, Really captured the essence of this important topic. Very nice and well said indeed.

Happy New Year.
//Derick

can you make it illegal without legislation for non-certified professional/amateur photographer to take pictures for pay?

Impossible to do this.

ohh man!! this happened to me also. a client was asking me to shoot multiple layouts with a budget of only 3,000.

If you have an MBA, you'd understand Michael Porter's issue on competitive advantage and I can tell you that digital photography has lowered the barriers to entry.

Oh Michael, we meet AGAIN!! :KO: gah VALUE CHAIN!

oh my god, porter's 5 forces....well he made it into 6 remember? hehehe...you need to count government in there now.

Anyways, the problem i see with applying porter's model here is that this is not something like the car industry where there is a BMW differentiating itself by way of engineering and use of materials.

The problem is the person charging 2,500 can be a better photographer than the one charging 70,000. And if the client sees this person's portfolio and realizes that he can get much better pictures at lower cost then you can be sure that he'd prefer the lower costing alternative.

In the business world when this happens, usually there's a technological breakthrough or a new process that allows the manufacturer to lower their cost and thereby lower their selling price for increased market share or keep their prices for bigger net margins. You never expect anyone to come into the game fresh and price lower than their cost, not unless its a hostile product using it as a loss leader or to gain market share. But this is not a strategy that can be kept for a long time. What we see now i think is purely lack of information as to how and what costs are incurred by the photog. These photographers just count how much their gear is and maybe their gas and food expense and then divides it by the number of desired gigs before they recoup their costs. Things like depreciation and capital reallocation are not accounted for. I feel that if they are made aware of their true costs they will soon realize that their 2,500 is definitely not enough and that they should price accordingly.

Again, in my opinion, the game becomes one of value proposition. Without the use of such things as yearly contracts or maybe doing some PR with models/celebrities so you become their preferred photog (this works here in the phils i think where a top celebrity can actually demand a photographer).

What do I mean by value proposition, basically, price is relative to how one sees/values your services. You can bundle services, you can offer extras but ultimately if the client does not value what you offer he wouldnt be willing to shell out more. You need to somehow determine what is important to the client. If he values price more than quality then i guess you are better off just letting that account go, not unless you re-configure your busiiness so that your value chain is geared towards lower costs meaning you study each and every process you have in your production and determine where you can lower your costs further.

Can you call this differentiation? I guess so, but id rather call it value proposition coz you can always differentiate but it may not necessarily be valued by the client.

Then the big question comes, what is valued by my client? Research will be indispensable here as well as history and experience.

Sounds very bookish and it is. I still go for the old entrepreneurial gut feel when everything fails. Thats what separates the entrepreneur from the MBAs. :)

Oh and having an MBA doesnt mean that companies will automatically increase your salary, when i graduated from this MBA school in makati last 2002, BPI bank wanted to hire me for P25,000, i couldnt believe the price they quoted me hehehe. Of course i didnt accept :)

OMG! I can't believe I would read it from you Louie. See, you don't even know me or have seen me but I can't imagine this happened to you? What more to other photographers out there? I strongly support any measure that would address this issue immediately, hopefully it will be cascaded with the other counterpart industry (graphic design) which sadly, also experiencing the same.

can you make it illegal without legislation for non-certified professional/amateur photographer to take pictures for pay?


...asking for something that is not possible

Comparing Two Photographers

If photographer "A" is better than photographer "B" but more expensive, he will still find clients who will pay for quality. He should just look for other clients and not bother about B's low-budget clients. It's tough but it can be done.:)

If Photographer A is not as good as B, but charges more, then A will lose his clients to B. :(

If the works of Photographers "A" and "B" are the same (given that all are the same - quality of work, service, facilities, etc.), but B is cheaper, then B may get the job.

If Photographers "A" and "B" have same quality of work (again, all the same) and they charge the same, the client will choose na lang whom he likes, or may alternate ly give jobs to both A and B.

If one (either A or B) is a bad photographer, even if he brings down his price to P2,500, or give it away for free, he will not be able to hold on to good clients, as they would not want to waste their time with him. He may fool a client once, but he can't fool them all the time. If the work is bad, even if cheap or given free, the client will look for a better photographer (at least, the better clients will).

On the other hand, if his work is good or very good but prices himself way too cheaply - he will get a lot of jobs, but will get little or no profit. He may even be losing on every job he accepts. Eventually, he will be forced to get out of the business or to raise his prices. (Unfortunately, until he quits the business, or he learns to charge properly, we are all negatively affected).

Now, "A" can try to influence but cannot control how "B" prices his photography services or vice versa; they can only control their own works and their own pricing. So to get more business, each photographer just needs to learn how to do better photography and do better business.

@Louie, there will always be someone charging less (or much less) than you, just as there will always be someone charging more (or much more) than you.

I say, look at your own work and your own pricing, and see if they are fairly paired. You can't win them all. When one of your clients goes for a much cheaper photographer, give out a sigh, rant a bit perhaps, but move on. There are many more clients out there who will appreciate your works and will gladly pay you your rates.

As for the other photographer, he will learn soon enough that he should have charged more. We just have to pray that he learns this very soon, before we all get "murdered."

As for your client, he will find out soon enough if he saved some money, or earned a great deal of frustrations.

I am not sure certifications or standardizing rates will work here, but keeping in close touch with fellow photographers may be a good way to learn what the going rates are, so that if we are tempted to compete on the basis of price, we don't sell ourselves too short by pricing way below the going rates.

Hmmm.... the year is ending and a new year about to begin and unfortunately I find myself extremely upset and frustrated that I have to rant about this. Last night a particular client who I had photographed before is expanding since business is doing good. So they met with me to discuss a shoot for next Saturday and discuss costs, etc. Wow, they have a lot planned - multiple layouts for billboard and van posters, print ads, calendars, etc. By industry standards, even at the most modest of rates, this would easily price tens of thousands. Suddenly, I was just informed by the client that they got another photographer who is charging P2,500 for the entire project!!!!!!! I have to cry MURDER! That's a merciless stab at the photography industry!

From the looks of it, the guy who charged this ridiculously low rate may not know what he is doing...and I can already assume he will fall flat on his face with what he's done. Any "good" and "thinking" photographer knows the value of his work, thus, will charge reasonably and fairly. Jeeesshhh, I dread the day when this guy ventures into weddings...

From a point of view of a "newbie" (assuming that the one who charged P2500 was a "newbie")

Maybe the reason that he charged so low was just to build up his portfolio, sometimes if you are new, you cannot easily get clients because you have no work to present to a client. Specially in advertising, you can create your own sample shots of different products but the actual product advertisement is different. If you have big banners/billboards/etc. all over metro manila, you can use this project to get more clients in the future.

I haven't done this scheme in photography, but have done this in the web development industry, at the start, i charged really low just to get clients and build up my portfolio. And after that my previous clients would recommend me to other clients/friends and that's where I charge a little bit higher and higher for the next client.

I am not thinking in the short term if the P2500 will be sufficient for the cost of this project but I am thinking long term on the income I may get from using this project as a springboard to get more and more clients in the future.

originally posted by rosalie gomez
...asking something that is not possible

without legislation, not possible.

certifying professional photographers through legislation will make it illegal for those practicing photography just like those practicing cpa ,doctors, engineers etc, without professional certification (which seems to me is the ultimate goal) is possible if they really want it.

.. and what are we going to do with clients that will prefer the "uncertified" over the "certified" photographer in consideration of the lower cost presented by "uncertified" photographer?

AS long that there are clients who are cost oriented, certification for photography will not work. CPA, Enginering and Medicine can't be compared with photography.

We can't blame photographers charging very low all the time. Like last year, I charged 8K for a wedding (labor only). Did I hurt the industry? I know my work will not be comparable to the work of Ma'am Pilar. I know my work will not have the same value as Mr. Louie... but the couple can't afford to spend more than 8K. Should the couple skipped the photo coverage instead because they can't afford the lowest charge the professionals can offer?

I think the clients need to be educated as well about photography industry.

If the buying stops, the killing can too. -- I love this phrase. :D

Happy New Year Everybody!!!

without legislation, not possible.

certifying professional photographers through legislation will make it illegal for those practicing photography just like those practicing cpa ,doctors, engineers etc, without professional certification (which seems to me is the ultimate goal) is possible if they really want it.

From a point of view of a "newbie" (assuming that the one who charged P2500 was a "newbie")

Maybe the reason that he charged so low was just to build up his portfolio, sometimes if you are new, you cannot easily get clients because you have no work to present to a client.

No offense meant bro but I think this is where the problem lies. Ignorance of what the market standards is affects your packaging of yourself, and ignorance is somehow related to being a "newbie". In every new thing you venture into, there's such a phrase as "doing your homework" which you need to follow, otherwise, you run the risk of putting yourself in a pit where pulling yourself up will be a struggle.

I agree, we need to charge low as newbies, but not "ridiculously" low. Charging 2.5K for a project which could have been charged at 40K++ is a crime...as you are not helping any to the cause and livelihood of professionals who are putting food on their tables through photography. Undercut the rate by all means, but not to the point that you're cutting off lives as well.

I was asked by a magazine to shoot for them more than 2 months ago. I asked around for rates and quoted them and they bargained. I am a newbie and they only learned about my works through my website. They told me they can only pay me 2.5K, and I needed to bring lights and everything, and shoot for more than 5 hours. I said no way, as that was way too low...and even as a newbie, I would never undervalue my work just to get into the business. It didn't push thru and I've heard that they got another photog for 1.5K, tsk! tsk!

I don't have anything against those who want to break into the business, but please, be mindful of your colleagues. Also, keep in mind that no spending client would hire you at face value, always, you have to show them your work prior to any shooting arrangements. If they like your work, they'll hire you and they'll have to pay for what you can do and not base their payment on how long you have been shooting, it doesn't work that way...unless you want to be prey to hungry vultures...

IMHO.

God bless.

Deo P.

.. and what are we going to do with clients that will prefer the "uncertified" over the "certified" photographer in consideration of the lower cost presented by "uncertified" photographer?

AS long that there are clients who are cost oriented, certification for photography will not work. CPA, Enginering and Medicine can't be compared with photography.

We can't blame photographers charging very low all the time. Like last year, I charged 8K for a wedding (labor only). Did I hurt the industry? I know my work will not be comparable to the work of Ma'am Pilar. I know my work will not have the same value as Mr. Louie... but the couple can't afford to spend more than 8K. Should the couple skipped the photo coverage instead because they can't afford the lowest charge the professionals can offer?

I think the clients need to be educated as well about photography industry.

If the buying stops, the killing can too. -- I love this phrase. :D

Happy New Year Everybody!!!

Bro, at 8K labor only, I would call that reasonable especially if you are a friend of the couple. :)

I stumbled upon a website yesterday where the studio's packages start at 10K, photo and video coverage, with albums already, 2 photogs shooting. Now try to beat that...:)

I sympathize with Louie. He has a point. But the solutions don't match reality.

Let's extrapolate this guy who go paid P2,500. Question - Is this sustainable for him? Can he deliver high quality output consistently at this price? Answer this based on your own capabilities. Can you shoot one or two clients at this rate, if you are given a project each week?

If you can answer this, then maybe that person will have a rude awakening later on.

So, there are others in the woodwork?

Bring them on!

Consider this as a hiccup in the price structure. It is the industry adjusting to the lower cost that technology brings.

But also consider these:

If that person or persons can deliver high quality output for that price and it is no longer a hiccup your segment of the market, then indeed an inflection point has occured and YOU must adjust. Either you lower your price or EXIT the market completely.

You can continue to fight it, but you must create the adjustments and find competitive advantage aside from price if you don't want to price yourself in the P2,500 range.

My passion is sports photography. But there's no money in it. And I wanted to finance my lenses and upgrade my gear. So, by accident, I did well in weddings and events. So, I am earning from it. Now, am doing well with video too. Seems I have some "talent" in it too. But now, I have relegated my sports shooting a hobby - for the love of it. I will use my events shoots to finance my love instead.

I have, in effect, decided to exit from sports shooting as a money making thing.

Now, there is another thing I want to mention here too. And I am ignorant about it. Have you guys in the ad business considered the fact, that you charge too much?

Don't get in my case, because I am simply asking. I don't know your segment and I don't know how its run.

But I can tell you that if technology has created this inflection point, and it has lowered the barriers to entry, then creating certification or other barriers to entrants is a normal reaction. The question is will your barriers be effective?

You can always try, and maybe rant some, but if these empowerwent does seem to be sustainable for the entrants, then you may have to re-invent yourselves. If not, then it is just a hiccup. A temporary anomaly.

I will say this from the standpoint of an events shooter though - Regardless of what technology comes, in our segment, the skills of the shooter can enable him/her to pick his price point. In our side of the fence, it's not so cut and dried. There are basically 3 tiers, but even that, can be subdivided even further. Plus, in our market, there simply are so many weddings and bdays, debuts, funerals happening even in hard times. The question for us is how we position ourselves in these market segments.

In our segment, the greatest shake out will be in the low end. Those film holdouts doing P1,500-3,000 per wedding, will be FORCED to buy a digital camera, even a P&S. It's not just being "IN" or with the times. It's simply a question of surival.

My friends who do low end found out that, it's only the initial cost that hurts, but on the operational level, they save a lot and can do a lot for much lower cost.

Not only that. More and more clients are asking for digital. And it has to be dslrs too because many can afford a digital P&S. Just got one for my brother this christmas, a Canon A430 for P6,500, a 4mp with nice video wonder. Paid, 8,850 with a 2gb SD for that one hour video capability.

So, the low end, will have to adjust eventually and is in a turmoil now. In our segment, they are being shaken. I've heard that there are some dslr low enders who do P1,500 service only. That's shoot and give a CD-R. Think about it, P1,200 profit (minus cd-r and transpo and meryenda) for just shooting. With no hassle on printing, or whatever). I charge 10x as much, but it's the same convenience for me.

My mid-segment is not that affective, and I am sure the top tiers aren't, at least from the technology POV.

So, it's on the low end that the upheaval is happening. The trouble is in the ad market, w/c I don't know so enlighten me, how do you guys divide it? How does the system work?

My question for you in your segment is this - do you think this is a hiccup or will this be a on-going thing that will really damage your side of the fence?

Trust me, the newbie is going to charge low and there will be entrants who are not newbie but sliding onto your fence who will charge low. The question is, can this price structure be sustained? If it can't then you have nothing really to worry about. If it is sustainable, then you must start questioning your own workflow and your own price structure. In the end, the market will decide if your POV is sustainable or not. The new technology may have just unmasked the high price structures you guys have enjoyed for years. Technology merely lowered the barriers to entry, and change the way the game is played. Suddenly, there' sot just a handful of you, but now, like in our segment, there are thousands you have to contend with.

I repeat - if these new entrant's low cost strategy is sustainable for them, then you do have a problem. You can try the certification route, or creating a price structure scheme, conduct seminars, publish it in newspapers, etc., but my take is, at the end of the day, it's your client's who will decide it.

Remember, it's not just you who is being squeezed. In this world, globalization, and technology is changing the way the market and the game is played. Even you are finding ways to cut cost. Trouble is, if those new entrants can demonstrate that a P2,500-10k fee is sustainable, then you may have to adjust yourselves. Or exit the market.

I work in the ad agency business (I'm not a professional advertising photographer- I’m a hobbyist). At the end of the day (in all the years that I’ve been in this crazy world of advertising) it all boils down to these factors in deciding who to get as photographers:

From an agency standpoint:

1. Portfolio (what does he or she specialize in, food? fashion? product?)
2. Price
3. Work attitude (does he/she work well with other people?)
4. Gear (yes, my art directors still get razzle dazzled by techie stuff)
5. Availability (how soon ... as most of our requirements are/were needed yesterday)

From a client standpoint:

1. Price
2. Portfolio
3. Availability

As you can see, who ever can deliver the best combination (top 2) ... wins the bid/project. Gone are the days of the high and mighty – ie. shoots, projects have to be moved because so and so food stylist, photographer, etc are not available, this is what I charge so live with it, or that clients/agencies are forced to one sided agreements.

Competition can be threatening ... but it also forces people to evolve. It gives agencies, clients choices: bad or good, still – it gives choices. It doesn’t follow anymore that if you invest in peanuts that you will necessarily get peanuts.

I know of one (well known) photographer for example that has done just this - he maintains his current premium pricing, etc … but has expanded to cater to the mid-segment by fielding a separate team (but under his tutelage and direction) and of course, a different price. So he still protects his premium reputation … while addressing the realities that times are hard and clients are looking at how they can stretch their peso.

Hope my thoughts are making sense … just wanted to get my thoughts out … at least from the ad agency perspective.

Sir allan, im not in the ad industry but i thought the waythingsworked was that a client gives the ad agency a ceertain amount for the campaign and if the agency can squeeze costs it means more porfit for the agency? If this is true then wouldnt price be top priority for the agency too?

"... but i thought the waythingsworked was that a client gives the ad agency a ceertain amount for the campaign and if the agency can squeeze costs it means more porfit for the agency? "

Most multinational agencies belonging to the top 10 at least, are beyond the "mark-ups." Lose change na yan ... they get their profit from design, final artwork, etc. Also clients most of the time would want copies of the suppliers' quotes/bids - each item is detailed. No more hidden mark ups, etc.

Times are hard dude ... most client budgets now need to work doubly hard to achieve even harder objectives.

If this is true then wouldnt price be top priority for the agency too?

Getting the best value for clients is the goal of any professional ad man. Clients re smart enough to see if their agency is taking them for a ride ... Usually, for an agency - the intent is to make sure that we get the top notch professionals that are tried and tested ... and have proven their worth ... but sometimes, this comes with a price too. But at the end of the day, we are custodians of clients budgets - and we have to make compromises - hence the usual BEST VALUE FOR YOUR BUDGET.

Hope this made sense for you ...

thanks sir.

Hmmm.... the year is ending and a new year about to begin and unfortunately I find myself extremely upset and frustrated that I have to rant about this. Last night a particular client who I had photographed before is expanding since business is doing good. So they met with me to discuss a shoot for next Saturday and discuss costs, etc. Wow, they have a lot planned - multiple layouts for billboard and van posters, print ads, calendars, etc. By industry standards, even at the most modest of rates, this would easily price tens of thousands. Suddenly, I was just informed by the client that they got another photographer who is charging P2,500 for the entire project!!!!!!! I have to cry MURDER! That's a merciless stab at the photography industry!

I agree with you.. If I were in your place i'd feel the same..
Sana you asked the name of the photog :)
I'm an aspiring wedding photographer but If the time comes when I have my own wedding projs, I don't want to start low, or compete with photogs who charge below the standard rate...

Chagring low is their way to win the client.. kainiz..
Dapat may proper benchmark

I repeat - if these new entrant's low cost strategy is sustainable for them, then you do have a problem. You can try the certification route, or creating a price structure scheme, conduct seminars, publish it in newspapers, etc., but my take is, at the end of the day, it's your client's who will decide it.

Remember, it's not just you who is being squeezed. In this world, globalization, and technology is changing the way the market and the game is played. Even you are finding ways to cut cost. Trouble is, if those new entrants can demonstrate that a P2,500-10k fee is sustainable, then you may have to adjust yourselves. Or exit the market.

Well said and balance POVs IMO...

i generally agree with sir mel but whether the person's cost structure is sustainable or not does not matter if he cant find customers.

Given you have a scott burger joint, its costs are way lower than jollibee's but why do you see jollibee winning the burger race and not scott burger?

Simply because they achieve different needs.

The person charging 2,500 will get clients the same way people prefer scott burger. But there are those clients whose needs cannot be addressed by this person. Maybe a 3 day turnaround time on 1000 post processed pictures or maybe a 7-day continous shoot down south.

Value is the name of the game. If what you offer is in line with what the customer values then you will get the deal.

You cannot expect to bag all the clients, there are those that value his price more than your service/quality. You dont need those clients in the first place; they arent part of the market segment that you are clearly targetting.

Again, package your service as you deem fit and market them to the proper segment.

BUT! be wary of the way the industry is going, low cost producers (the sustainable ones) have something that you should learn from. Maybe its the process or maybe its technology. You had better find out what it is before its too late and you find yourself out-priced, out-classed and out of clients.

Suddenly, I was just informed by the client that they got another photographer who is charging P2,500 for the entire project!!!!!!! I have to cry MURDER! That's a merciless stab at the photography industry!

FOUL!! :Oops: maybe people have to be taught how to charge.. and at least recover the cost of their equiptment.. there are so many factors that are not taken into consideration so many shorcuts.. P2,500? wow.. a hunter at a wedding can even make more than that...

photography isnt like it used to be...

Mel, Christian, Harvey and Christopher
I admire your in-depth analysis and appreciation of the problem.

Too bad there is really no solution. Photography is a complicated field.
In the film days, it was really a viable business for people with talent and expertise as explained by harvey, though the affluent few could also be really good and afford it as a hobby.

Now it's a diminishing business. More and more can afford to learn and practice it even just as a hobby. Just browsing through Pbase and flickr, amateur digital photographer talents are plentiful.

Just like the rants of computer programmers, web designers or graphic artists. Who can police their ranks on the going rates when everyone with a computer, have access to internet tutorials and the proper acquired skills create work of value and start charging high or low?

What can be scary for professional photographers are two upcoming threats:

1. DIY attitude of companies to cut marketing cost.
Regular employees from marketing or Creative department who knows some photography shooting all their ads, brochures, billboards and other photography requirements. I know some big companies who do that even for their billboards. To a trained eye photog it really sucks, but to the ordinary passer-by it still delivers the message.

2. Hobbyist who can do it for free.

... if I may just add to the "threats" -

I remember reading one in this thread wherein a WELL KNOWN photographer charged way way less than his normal cost ... just to bag a contract for magazine covers. I think that should be part of it too .. its not prevalent ... but if word gets around, clients, advertisers, agencies will start to think "IF SO AND SO CAN DO IT, WHY CAN SO AND SO ACCEPT THE DEAL" etc etc ..

Yun lang ... bow!

louie, buti pa ang taho standard ang rate P5 small, P10 ang big. fishball 50c and squidball P2. i guess its about time we really talk about how we charge on layouts and coverages. i too have loss clients from people who have cameras (can't call them photographers) who shoots weddings for P1500. hay =(

sir raffy, good point on the rising in-house alternative. If the client feels that it may actually be cheaper to hire a talented photographer that they can use whenever they feel then it could mean lower number of paid shoots for the professional.

I wonder how the advertising industry looks at that particular option.

anyone care to comment on it?

sir raffy, good point on the rising in-house alternative. If the client feels that it may actually be cheaper to hire a talented photographer that they can use whenever they feel then it could mean lower number of paid shoots for the professional.

I wonder how the advertising industry looks at that particular option.

anyone care to comment on it?

Last comment before I go to sleep ... (and this is just my opinion .. and observations being in the ad industry).

It is true that some clients do everything in house ... including photography. But this is a rare set up as of the moment (ie. small companies who's nephew, niece or kamaganak are into photography).

What's more common is that, clients are setting up mini-art departments in-house so that they can save up on adaptations of layouts, final art, etc. What happens is that, they ask (and pay) agencies for the mother idea/layout/ layered file of the FA - then they do the various applications (ie. from a poster to a price card, wobbler, mobile etc). This is an acceptable practice now ...

louie, buti pa ang taho standard ang rate P5 small, P10 ang big. fishball 50c and squidball P2. i guess its about time we really talk about how we charge on layouts and coverages. i too have loss clients from people who have cameras (can't call them photographers) who shoots weddings for P1500. hay =(

I indeed concur... :)

A lot of clients now have their own cameras, they even bring it over to me and ask questions on how to use etc. and etc.. I just let go of my feelings and teach them.
Besides, whatever I teach it's still the eye and how one uses the technique that matters. My fault maybe but it will be too selfish of me if i don't teach - now a handful of art directors and clients shoot for their own project. I may be in big trouble to my bosses and to myself but what can I do? The thing is they come back to let me shoot only to the projects that they can't deliver. Sad to say I lost a lot of jobs - sorry for me but still i always remind myself to upgrade my knowledge to the craft and move on - do my best and make sure that i deliver quality work. Everyone have to specialize on something - if you want to survive you have to specialize not only in one field. But still, I hope we can solve this unending problem.

I guess one fundamental idea for consumers is "value for money". If I paid P50k to a photographer, I expect to get my moneys worth (and the last time I did, I can really say that I got more... I hope he gets to read this:)).

I suppose it depends on what consumers are looking for... maybe a combination of preference, and cost to name some. People who really get a good deal are thos who find the best combination (i.e. they might find someone who offers a cheaper package, and fits their "taste").

The advent of digital technology makes us all anxious. We cannot ignore the fact that even my 10-year old niece knows how to operate a DSLR. It is important to know your strength, niche, taste and style, and vision. Let others charge low or even give their services for free--just move on with your craft and i'm sure clients will remember you as a photographer who delivers what they want. Do you know how much our leading editorial photographers charge per layout nowadays (talk to the editors and you will know how much)? If you are fed up with the photography industry, try to shift to another hobby or profession. For me, going back to painting just might save me from insanity.:)

Hi Louie, I'm sorry you felt that way. Your concern is very valid. In my case, specifically in wedding industry, we have so many cases like that. I think it's easier to become a wedding photographer than an advertising photographer. Although I feel that the project is not meant for you. I don't think anybody would pay for P2500 when you can get it normally for tens of thousand. Since it happened to you, I think even though they were your previous client, that specific project has lower requirements. That's quite common for weddings. Even though I had a happy couple but that necessarily mean I'll get to shoot their sister or brother's wedding.

I wouldn't call it murder. You're way too good a photographer to compare yourself to someone who charges P2500 per project. He's not your competitor.

There is also a chance that they would come back to you and re-discuss. In that case, prepare yourself for a good laugh on how they throw away P2500. :)

but still i always remind myself to upgrade my knowledge to the craft and move on - do my best and make sure that i deliver quality work. Everyone have to specialize on something - if you want to survive you have to specialize not only in one field. But still, I hope we can solve this unending problem.

There is a saying that when the going gets tough, the tough gets going. These are tough times for professional photography - whether advertising, wedding, or editorial. How do the tough get going? - the way you said it : upgrade knowledge, do our best, even share what we know etc.

In addition, think of this challenge as being like a bicycle rider going uphill, we need to keep pedalling or we would fall. In addition to a constant effort to improve our skills, facilities and equipment, we must continue to pedal to look for clients who know the value of good work and willing to pay for it. Our performance for 2006 shows that there are still such clients.

The danger lies when we give up the fight for fair price (as defined by BOTH photographer and client) and join the price war. Reality has dictated that we adjust our rates downwards and just try to make up for lost profit margins by doing more jobs but we can only go down to a certain price level. Lower that that and it is no longer wise. The better solution to joining the price war is improving one's photography and intensifying one's marketing and sales effort. I believe that there are other clients out there who value good work, and I thank God, our client servicing staff and everybody else in the company for working hard to find those valued clients.

Finally, I still believe that joining hands with other photographers can help all of us overcome the many challenges that we face today.

i think the OP is feeling the same way as those whose jobs were replaced by cheaper outsourced jobs. but then that is the reality. the world is flat. camera makers are also outsourcing thats why the cost of the equipment is also going down. the barrier to entry is thus lowered. i think the post by mel was spot on. the real threat is talented new folks with fresh/better ideas having access to equipment that wasn't practical a few years ago (same way the indians have discovered the abundance of post dot-com-boom fiber optic bandwidth). if this new folks charging low can somehow manage a new business model that lowers the cost to clients yet maintains the consistency and the quality that clients want, there is no one that can stop that. its not murder, its called "change". as the saying goes "adapt or die".

hope the tone is right.

cheers!

The "minimum standard bar" has been raised. The givens of professionalism, excellent quality, timely delivery are a must.........now the price points have also been adapted into the fold, of the acceptance criteria called "change". The only remaining factor is Network.

Hopefully, if your "network" sees your value, perceived or factual, you can still dictate your price/value. This is the playing field you bring the new players into. Most likely, they'll have a difficult time. But if they beat you on your turf, then you have a serious career problem.

But if they beat you on your turf, then you have a serious career problem.

I agree. G-nie and I talked about this today when she mentioned that another art-director client has announced that he is going into professional photography. G-nie knows that her challenge is to keep being better than she was before, and trying to be better than other photographers - whether traditional competitors or the new competitors (client-turned-photographers) - so that she can deliver what they cannot. The bar is always being raised, and we need to meet that challenge.

I read a quote from Darwin that said it is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive, but he who can cope with the changes (or something to that effect). I derive inspiration also from my daughter's sport - surfing. The waves may go up or down, but as long as you stay on top of the wave, you'd be okay.

it is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive, but he who can cope with the changes

This is so true ...

Quoting Jack Welch of GE:

"Greatness is redefined everyday. Being successful is not a birth-right. You have to earn that right thru hard work and creativity."

I totally agree that to be able to survive, change is needed. Evolution is needed. I don't think its enough that you are well-known professional who did excellent work in the past. Once clients see that you can be "overwritten" by a younger, cheaper alternative, there is no reason for him NOT to switch. We need to cope up with the changes or be left behind.

In most companies right now, we practice "change management". How do we actually manage these changes. In any business, the only effective way to manage change is to change our processes, practices, techniques along with our environment. If a 2500php photographer can do a good work worth 5,000php, then you must deliver work that is worth 100,000php to be able to get a 50,000php pay-out.

Just my 2cents...

it is not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive, but he who can cope with the changes

This is so true ...


..... most of those who cope up with the changes are the strong and intelligent, which by the way i can see a lot in this thread :D

I hope the photography industry does not end up like the web and graphic design industry. After the dot com crash a lot of so called "designers" (I like to call them surplus artteesst) popped out of no where and started charging "junk food prices" for doing design work. Nung una bumenta kasi nga mura. But when the issue of usability and search engine optimization got noticed, clients started hiring in house designers instead of going to agencies and freelancers. Nowadays a website is a total must have for a business (much like a printed catalogue) but owners would rather try to get one in as cheap a price as possible... just so they have one. Very few care about making their websites very presentable. Most just want to be visible online.

But I agree with everyone who said that when the client gets his/her rude awakening, they'd come crawling back and you're usually in for a good laugh at the cheaper design. :)

Pera sana nga... wag mauwi ang industriyang ito sa pagiging isang "pwede na yan basta meron."

Maybe we can also look at it from the point of view of selling the products.

When the end-users look at the billboard, we rarely hear comments regarding the photography. Sometimes the main driver is the endorser. Yes sometimes youd hear people say "wow, that poster of claudine barretto for that brand looks hot". And then they go look for the same clothes in the shop not because the photography (although it may have been the reason why the clothes looked good in the first place) was good but because of the endorser.

When I was still in MBA we were discussing with this certain ad agency the effectiveness of Aga Muhlach as an endorser and they were saying that just by using him they could already expect a certain amount of sales increase.

There would be those products where proper photography and styling are paramount like food and fashion but there are those that dont need any artistic flare. Just take a well known model and put him with the product and shoot. Minimal costs and maximum return.

What does this mean? I guess it again highlights the need to segment the market. If youre in that segment where they dont really care for the quality of photography then it might be better to pack your bags and try other segments. You can also try to reconfigure your value proposition. At least you are now aware and you arent expecting a duck from a chicken egg.

with technology and all and the convenience of aquiring equipment...does have its drawbacks...It is more painfull for the oldschool photogs who took a considerable time getting thier skills honed and amassing equipment. it used to take so long to get your lights correct and so much pola to check it out that to go through that process one must indeed charge a price worth the difficulty encountered to obtain the perfect image. Then there were few skilled photogs and well equipped for large format photography. Now it a matter of megapix...entry level caemras all carry the qualities of a well equipped photo studio that any one can be a photographer if he wants to. Methinks in this age of lima sinko photography it is a matter of packaging and really finding your niche and grow with it. You cant blame the advertisers to bite at 2.5k deal when the industry is also runnning in dires straits because of our present economic sit.

with technology and all and the convenience of aquiring equipment...does have its drawbacks...It is more painfull for the oldschool photogs who took a considerable time getting thier skills honed and amassing equipment. it used to take so long to get your lights correct and so much pola to check it out that to go through that process one must indeed charge a price worth the difficulty encountered to obtain the perfect image. Then there were few skilled photogs and well equipped for large format photography. Now it a matter of megapix...entry level caemras all carry the qualities of a well equipped photo studio that any one can be a photographer if he wants to. Methinks in this age of lima sinko photography it is a matter of packaging and really finding your niche and grow with it. You cant blame the advertisers to bite at 2.5k deal when the industry is also runnning in dires straits because of our present economic sit.

Reminded me when programs used to be written in FORTRAN and BASIC. When compiling and reloading of programs where done in punch cards ( for the uninitiated, is a piece of stiff paper that contains digital information represented by the presence or absence of holes in predefined positions) for loading programs. Even programmers then, as talented as they are then, are pretty obsolete today.:(

PHP2,500?!? Ang mahal naman! I'll shoot for free!!! :Grin: I did that and won't hesitate doing again, geez it's fun! I got to shoot for 2 issues of a Singaporean men's magazine(SNAG) for fun. My first gig with this mag is in tandem with a paid photographer and I really don't care how much he charged, on the second gig he's gone but not completely, he's assigned to the less glamorous section of the magazine, I don't want to hear that he has lost a business because of me, that's the editor's choice. And the ratio of our published pics out of 13 shots, 11 was from me.

Ok, I'm no expert in the "Photography Industry", I'm just a gate crasher who loves to party so party it is. I'm just relating to experience, love me or hate me one way or another I may become your client, sooner you'll learn this damn "industry" is actually an "ecosystem" there's no such thing as pecking order, all we have is a food chain.

Talking about ecosystem, here is another experience. Last Dec. 29, 2006 we booked for a 2-hour photoshoot for a model at a Pasig studio called DPI. Here's a test shot for the added convincing power. Yes I was there in Phils. for the holidays.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/146/345469757_c9f812e219.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jaredflo/345469757)

The studio charges PHP500+/hour(if my memory serves me right) and I think I got what I paid for. I got a faulty IR trigger, ok, in the first place I shouldn't have an IR trigger, I must have a radio trigger as my primarily wireless trigger but we're running out of time. In Singapore I don't mind paying S$35/hour in a studio but when I insist on using a radio trigger they will give it to me and when I demand for a lot things the crew are just ready and happy to respond. As a result I wasted 6 frames from my Velvia 100 roll. So walking out of the door, I am not a very happy customer. I quit after precisely 1hour and 55 minutes shooting and spent another 15-20 minutes packing. To cut the story short, my packing time was also charged hahaha! So we were billed like around PHP1,490 for 2 hours and something minutes. In Singapore, it's a gentleman's agreement, 2hours is 2 hours even if you're still in the room packing for the next 10-15mins it's still 2 hours. I hate comparing things, really, especially against my own. I really don't mind paying 1,490 that's cheap for a cheap stuff. So my friend did a phone call to a guy called Louie and propped up his DLSU/ATENEO/UAP/SanAgo/SanLo Hardened TagLish accent negotiating the right rate while walking to and fro in the reception area, geez I never heard him like that, it's so funny! haha!


So going back to moral of the story, are you worth PHP2,500??

ok..after that interesting (!?!?) post...this is getting pretty interesting.

will get my popcorn and pop..munch munch.

PHP2,500?!? Ang mahal naman! I'll shoot for free!!! :Grin: I did that and won't hesitate doing again, geez it's fun! I got to shoot for 2 issues of a Singaporean men's magazine(SNAG) for fun. My first gig with this mag is in tandem with a paid photographer and I really don't care how much he charged, on the second gig he's gone but not completely, he's assigned to the less glamorous section of the magazine, I don't want to hear that he has lost a business because of me, that's the editor's choice. And the ratio of our published pics out of 13 shots, 11 was from me.

Ok, I'm no expert in the "Photography Industry", I'm just a gate crasher who loves to party so party it is. I'm just relating to experience, love me or hate me one way or another I may become your client, sooner you'll learn this damn "industry" is actually an "ecosystem" there's no such thing as pecking order, all we have is a food chain.

Talking about ecosystem, here is another experience. Last Dec. 29, 2006 we booked for a 2-hour photoshoot for a model at a Pasig studio called DPI. Here's a test shot for the added convincing power. Yes I was there in Phils. for the holidays.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/146/345469757_c9f812e219.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/jaredflo/345469757)

The studio charges PHP500+/hour(if my memory serves me right) and I think I got what I paid for. I got a faulty IR trigger, ok, in the first place I shouldn't have an IR trigger, I must have a radio trigger as my primarily wireless trigger but we're running out of time. In Singapore I don't mind paying S$35/hour in a studio but when I insist on using a radio trigger they will give it to me and when I demand for a lot things the crew are just ready and happy to respond. As a result I wasted 6 frames from my Velvia 100 roll. So walking out of the door, I am not a very happy customer. I quit after precisely 1hour and 55 minutes shooting and spent another 15-20 minutes packing. To cut the story short, my packing time was also charged hahaha! So we were billed like around PHP1,490 for 2 hours and something minutes. In Singapore, it's a gentleman's agreement, 2hours is 2 hours even if you're still in the room packing for the next 10-15mins it's still 2 hours. I hate comparing things, really, especially against my own. I really don't mind paying 1,490 that's cheap for a cheap stuff. So my friend did a phone call to a guy called Louie and propped up his DLSU/ATENEO/UAP/SanAgo/SanLo Hardened TagLish accent negotiating the right rate while walking to and fro in the reception area, geez I never heard him like that, it's so funny! haha!


So going back to moral of the story, are you worth PHP2,500??

What's a DLSU/ATENEO/UAP/SanAgo/SanLo Hardened TagLish accent? haha

I certainly hope they paid you 3 meals/day because I don't think you'd survive if photography was your source of income.

Hmmm.... the year is ending and a new year about to begin and unfortunately I find myself extremely upset and frustrated that I have to rant about this. Last night a particular client who I had photographed before is expanding since business is doing good. So they met with me to discuss a shoot for next Saturday and discuss costs, etc. Wow, they have a lot planned - multiple layouts for billboard and van posters, print ads, calendars, etc. By industry standards, even at the most modest of rates, this would easily price tens of thousands. Suddenly, I was just informed by the client that they got another photographer who is charging P2,500 for the entire project!!!!!!! I have to cry MURDER! That's a merciless stab at the photography industry!


It is disheartening to know that a long hard training and experience doesnt get paid well now a days. You cannot blame ur client. By the way how come he shifted to a new photographer? Was he not satisfied with your previous output? Did ur client know how to differientiate a newbies from a professional? I think Ur client is educated enough to differentiate and genuine from a fake. ( as the saying goes " if it sound too good to be true...probably it is not true)Judging by the data U presented..it seems that both your client and the other service provider is mis-informed. You cant blame ur client maybe he is cutting corners to cut down production cost and increse profits ( that is how in the buisiness world...profit and return of investment) nor U cant blame the other photographer..maybe he is a newbie who is struggling out to make a living and accept as many job offers ( as they say cheaper by the dozen) or may be he is a close family friend of the client just returning a favor.This situation reminded me when I was still a resident in OB-Gyn. We have to go on duties 36 hrs, deliver babies in the wee hours of the morning and get paid minimum wages (during our time d 80s.. an SM sales clerk gets paid well than us). After residency come the tough time to establish a private practice ( mind U its not easy..it took me 3-4 years) As a start I deliver babies for FREE or if lucky enough ,I get paid with eggs or chicken or whatever. I do this in order to create a market for demand and hopin I get up the ladder. But time had change. Doctors are becoming extinct these days. Pateint prefer to deliver at home attended by a midwife or a hilot (and they charge as much as P 1000 - P 3000 per delivery) The discipline that I trained was not easy. I belong to various professional and ethical group and even finish a masteral degree in Public Health....but sad to say still strugglin my way up to the ladder. You cannot blame the client. We are living a "client-oriented world". Everything has change...gone are the good old days of " a live telephone operator", a tailored-made shirt and pants and good old home-cooked meal. Everthing is ready to eat, ready to wear or " discard after one use". As they say technology is either God given or a burden. It made life easy for everyone ( and that includes U and me) but made it miserable to some. To us professionals...let me say this ...the world is geting smaller for us every day. We have TO ADAPT and CHANGE our STRATEGIES . We have to evolved in order to survive. " ITS A TOUGH WORLD OUT THERE":Oops:


_________________
Treat your camera like a gun...always around.....always loaded.... and ready to shoot

As the MARINE says;
You can have my wife;
My dog.....maybe;
My gun.....NEVER

So my friend did a phone call to a guy called Louie and propped up his DLSU/ATENEO/UAP/SanAgo/SanLo Hardened TagLish accent negotiating the right rate while walking to and fro in the reception area, geez I never heard him like that, it's so funny! haha!


So going back to moral of the story, are you worth PHP2,500??

studied in San Agustin Makati and DLSU, and I don't have the 'accent', well i guess I missed going to the other schools you mentioned. :Grin:

well I guess for 'some', especially for a hobbyist (not all) who has another source of income or who comes from a well-off family w/ huge earnings ( a huge difference w/ earning big and saving big, its not what you earn but what you save - off topic ) it doesn't really matter if he gets paid or not, I guess what matters to him is the experience or getting an opportunity to learn and improve his skills, exposure na rin ika-nga.

but for pros and semi-pros we have to do this not just because of passion but also to provide for our families and earn a living. We have invested both time ( which you can never take back) and money (hard earned) on our gears and on ourselves. We have ROI's to meet and would want our passion for photography to sustain itself financally, and not put additional strain on the "monthly budget" (im sure wifey would agree w/ this).

so P2500 for all that work, would be just mere change for someone, but another photographer lost a minimum P30K on that job which would have changed his life short term, or may have helped pay his monthly ammortization.

semi-pro, I think i would continue to be one just because as other ppl have said, prof. photography is not what it used to be and personally we do operate on a strict monthly budget so I have to provide for that, so I still need to concentrate on our small business.

ok..after that interesting (!?!?) post...this is getting pretty interesting.

will get my popcorn and pop..munch munch.

I got mine! Now this thread has taught me to keep my day job haha! Photography is no different with other cottage businesses that has became bandwagons of the early 90's like Lechon Manok, Nata De Coco and Shawarma where the fittest survived(e.g. Andok's, Behrouz etc.) because they know their business, their customers and competitors. As Sun Tzu has said "know your enemy and know yourself and you will never fear the result of a thousand battles". Because of the high-availability of digital photography this so-called industry has entered it bandwagon phase, there's a lot of joiners and as usual nobody's riding shotgun(it's not a regulated profession in the first place).

In my industry things like this are mere breakfast. For almost 5 years we saw the onslaught of the phenomenon called "Open Source" eating in to the space of the greedy industry leaders(*MICROSOFT and the gang*) and they cried "MURDER!" too coz they knew it's death waiting at the door. It happens, sometimes you wouldn't know you're dead before you can say "shutter speed".
As in the Navy they say "Shape Up or Ship Out".

this thread looks like a case study in MBA class.

the difference in this discussion is, the participants are MBA graduates/enterpreneurs, the non-MBA enterpreneurs and kibitzers.

i find their opinions, suggestions to the problem quite enlightening.

it is interesting to read all of your comments....I will also quote Sun Tzu like what Jared Odulio did, "Subdue the enemy without fighting"....

know your market, know your worth and keep on shooting.....

it is interesting to read all of your comments....I will also quote Sun Tzu like what Jared Odulio did, "Subdue the enemy without fighting"....

know your market, know your worth and keep on shooting.....

Yes..right on. As to my own words " keep your friends close and your enemy..closer":)


_____________

"Old Nikon lenses never dies....their camera body just fade away":Dum:

Yes..right on. As to my own words " keep your friends close and your enemy..closer":)


.....or consider painting like Ross said...........:Grin:

One has to go to a higher level of photography to create the "difference"......case in point is Studio 58 LAB10 of Bengy Toda........just does not slug it out in the shooting arena, went into serious processing...........and if you have what it takes.........try to go head to head........try to undercut at that level, then you will know what getting burned in this business will mean.

hey guys...click on this link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz6XjXu-oT8. Another threat to us professionals or should I say the camera industry. watch and enjoy.:Thinking:


_____________
My camera...it keeps my fond memories....FOREVER :)

Yes..right on. As to my own words " keep your friends close and your enemy..closer":)



Hey dude, that's Don Vito hahaha. If I got a Barrett Rifle I don't need them to be too close ;)

But don't lose hope folks!...we still have 11 months of 2007 coming our way for a commercial shoot. What about fine art photography? Fine art photo exhibitions are booked up to November this year at OWG. We had a tremendous turn-out last year, having launched numerous first solo exhibitions of the up-and-coming fine art photography greats like Manuel Librodo, Jing Magsaysay, Miguel Zubiri, Richard Larios, Borj Meneses, Estan Cabigas, Parc Cruz, Lex Kabigting, Jeff Cua, Luis Martin Harder, Andy Maluche, and Victor Sollorano. Established fine art photographers like Bien S. Baustista, Wig Tysmans, and Nap Jamir--joined by National Artist Bencab--have graced the walls of OWG. Commercial clients are dictating their prices, but selling of fine art pieces is a much different ball game. Come visit the "Beyond Frames" show until January 12 and you will see what I mean!:)

PHP2,500?!? Ang mahal naman! I'll shoot for free!!! :Grin: I did that and won't hesitate doing again, geez it's fun! I got to shoot for 2 issues of a Singaporean men's magazine(SNAG) for fun. My first gig with this mag is in tandem with a paid photographer and I really don't care how much he charged, on the second gig he's gone but not completely, he's assigned to the less glamorous section of the magazine, I don't want to hear that he has lost a business because of me, that's the editor's choice. And the ratio of our published pics out of 13 shots, 11 was from me.



You know what, I can also shoot for free, anytime of the day, any day of the week...but will I do that? NO, because doing that means taking away food from somebody else's table...and I just can't see myself snatching the livelihood of those who made photography a living just for the "fun" of it...Good luck on your photography career and your business or full-time work and I hope nobody does what you do for a living for free for the "fun" of it. :)

actually, it happened a long time already for folks like jared. its called open source. its a bit OT and lengthy to discuss but its a fact. there are people willing to do work for free and ask absolutely nothing (monetary) in return. it boggles the mind, but maybe its the inherent generousity of the human spirit. :) or blame the internet, the greatest equalizer of all, veteran or newbie photogs have the same access to the vast resources regarding photography. resources that are more often than not, FREE (unlike before). and thus has obvious implications.

but look at it this way, isn't the one doing photography for free might also be helping somebody who can't afford to pay? just starting up? etc. or put it this way, who will cater to the lower income class/small enterprises/startups? this folks have no chance of getting a decent photographer for what he could afford because its "murder"/"snatching somebody else livelihood" to accept rates below 5k or free? i mean if that person can do the job (or better), then why not?

i think most of the posts has summarized it already, things like this can't be stopped, its called change. whatever industry that maybe. accept, adapt, and move on or go with the fading light. the world is getting flatter by the minute, realizing this would mean you have to tripple your efforts to stand out, and name your price. :Grin:


cheers!

nox


You know what, I can also shoot for free, anytime of the day, any day of the week...but will I do that? NO, because doing that means taking away food from somebody else's table...and I just can't see myself snatching the livelihood of those who made photography a living just for the "fun" of it...Good luck on your photography career and your business or full-time work and I hope nobody does what you do for a living for free for the "fun" of it. :)

Its a different case if you're doing it for free to those that cant afford or for charity (pro bono). But for those who will earn a profit from your work? Nah!

its a free world out there...you cannot stop something because you it is disadvantageous to you..Mr. Rogelio Nocom says it all...ITS A CHALLENGE. I do Export Trading and I must say that China is really hurting alot in our section however we cannot ask China to SIMPLY STOP because your hurting our Sales Projections and Actual Sales Targets, even the mighty Uncle Sam cannot demand such.

I know a DPP member who does "MASA Wedding Package", for 3K is he hurting the business I dont think he is but he knows his market segment and still enjoy Photography as a hobby. We cannot say that he's not doing good because I know for a fact that he is doing pretty well.

To sum it all up, again if you want to get more clients then go out there, find and get them...you cannot get new client if we kept on pointing fingers...show your worth and I am sure you will find your place in the industry.

oppsss....i hope im not being abrassive here...just my humble opinion

im out of here...Red ;-)



actually, it happened a long time already for folks like jared. its called open source. its a bit OT and lengthy to discuss but its a fact. there are people willing to do work for free and ask absolutely nothing (monetary) in return. it boggles the mind, but maybe its the inherent generousity of the human spirit. :) or blame the internet, the greatest equalizer of all, veteran or newbie photogs have the same access to the vast resources regarding photography. resources that are more often than not, FREE (unlike before). and thus has obvious implications.

but look at it this way, isn't the one doing photography for free might also be helping somebody who can't afford to pay? just starting up? etc. or put it this way, who will cater to the lower income class/small enterprises/startups? this folks have no chance of getting a decent photographer for what he could afford because its "murder"/"snatching somebody else livelihood" to accept rates below 5k or free? i mean if that person can do the job (or better), then why not?

i think most of the posts has summarized it already, things like this can't be stopped, its called change. whatever industry that maybe. accept, adapt, and move on or go with the fading light. the world is getting flatter by the minute, realizing this would mean you have to tripple your efforts to stand out, and name your price. :Grin:


cheers!

nox

You know what, I can also shoot for free, anytime of the day, any day of the week...but will I do that? NO, because doing that means taking away food from somebody else's table...and I just can't see myself snatching the livelihood of those who made photography a living just for the "fun" of it...Good luck on your photography career and your business or full-time work and I hope nobody does what you do for a living for free for the "fun" of it. :)

Hey man, chill out, to be honest, I don't have a photography career, I really suck at it :D

Probably I might be a fine art photographer and start my exhibit, maybe my first theme is about manholes, what do you think? :Dum:

but look at it this way, isn't the one doing photography for free might also be helping somebody who can't afford to pay? just starting up? etc. or put it this way, who will cater to the lower income class/small enterprises/startups?

i agree with rogelio. doing pro bono work is also admirable. however, it is a different thing altogether if a photographer will do a job for a magazine company for a very low fee not commensurate with the work.

Its a different case if you're doing it for free to those that cant afford or for charity (pro bono). But for those who will earn a profit from your work? Nah!
for the last 2 page of this thread i agree with this,,

a thought on how people regard output of a professional....

again... this is me thinking out loud.

people might be thinking... what this much thousands of pesos for just taking pictures when i can do it myself!!! it is sometimes very hard to put a price tag on a service that we do. and it is even harder for the clients to understand why we are charging 15000 for a 6 hour work, for example.

i together with another doctor did an appecdectomy to remove an infected appendix of the patient. because of the easy anatomy of the patient, together with his thin abdominal fat, and maybe, divine providence, we were able to take out the appendix in 15 minutes.

when it is time for the patient to pay the professional fee, they were asking why we had to charge 15000 for a 15 minute operation. that is 1000 a minute they said.

i forgot already how i answered that inquiry. however, i was thinking, the 15000 pesos should not be broken down to the 15 minutes. it should be divided by 15 years -- the amount of time one has to spend training and studying in order to be competent enough to operate very fast, resulting to lower amount of blood loss and a lower amount of time the patient will spend under anesthesia, which is beneficial to the patient since a longer anesthesia time is associated to a number of complications.

so broken down, it is 15000 divided by 15 years is 1000 pesos per year... A BARGAIN.

sorry for the analogy some may consider not applicable.

but photographers, IMHO, should learn to value themselves not just based on the number of raw or jpeg files we are giving clients, not just the amount of time, the number of lay-outs that we will do.

we are a lot more than just assembly line workers.

how long and what kind of investment have you given to the craft? in terms of time? money? late night work? time away from family?

what is the output?

again this is just my humble opinion stated in raw since i am just thinking out loud.

mmmmmmmmmmmm... deep philosophical debates... :)

mmmmmmmmmmmm... deep philosophical debates... :)


hehehe... di naman... just real concerns.... hehehe :)

Christian, you said it very well. I'm also in the services industry and customers almost always try to equate the time I spent on the actual activity with my rates without considering the amount of work I have to put in to get to where I am today.

And I guess that's why people say the Internet and digitalization-of-everything is a great equalizer. Gone are the days when one have to take a long apprenticeship to achieve Esteemed Master status.

Things now happen so much faster that my kids probably have to start learning calculus in grade school just to keep up!

Christian, you said it very well. I'm also in the services industry and customers almost always try to equate the time I spent on the actual activity with my rates without considering the amount of work I have to put in to get to where I am today.

And I guess that's why people say the Internet and digitalization-of-everything is a great equalizer. Gone are the days when one have to take a long apprenticeship to achieve Esteemed Master status.

Things now happen so much faster that my kids probably have to start learning calculus in grade school just to keep up!

Likewise very well expressed Jerry! I have one correction though... Probably it's not calculus anymore... Quantum Physics maybe... :Grin:

You know what, I can also shoot for free, anytime of the day, any day of the week...but will I do that? NO, because doing that means taking away food from somebody else's table...and I just can't see myself snatching the livelihood of those who made photography a living just for the "fun" of it...Good luck on your photography career and your business or full-time work and I hope nobody does what you do for a living for free for the "fun" of it. :)

Deo, I don't mean to defend Jared, but I am not threatened by an occasional free-bee shooter. The keyword is sustainability. When Jared goes back to work, the client who will want more done will find him too busy and thus wont' get the next free-bee.

As for what makes one say that the guy charging P2,500 is taking from someone who charges P10k or more? For all we care, that person charging so low has to feed his family too. In fact, because of the lowering of the barriers, it has alowed more people to find something to earn a living. Maybe, before, only those who entered early or have the means could afford the old technology. Hence, the high pricing structure.

The case that Louie presented is not new. Those who have taken MBA or business courses know that history is repleat with cases of such shifts. Of course, reading a case of somebody, say the old industries like basketweaiving or old way of making shoes being eaten by machines in the past, we don't feel the emotional impact. But when it happens to you, you're bust and suddenly it hurts a lot.

In fact, in many instances, it's the ego that is hurt, more than the wallet. And if indeed that low cost photographer can deliver good stuff like you for so much less, then your own world is just shattered.

But do not lose hope. it's always like that. The initial shock is really, well, "shocking." But just a bit and let the initial rush play itself out. The pretenders will be weeded out. And trust me, they will be in the droves. The old timers will have to adjust as the new entrants who are truly "worthy" will be their competitors.

3 years ago, I bought a 300d even if it was expensive, because as early as 3 years ago, I knew (due to my grad degree) that digital would change things -- a lot. I was right. So, it's not a surprise. I also knew there would be resistance, even denial in the intial stages. But I knew the handwriting was on the wall.

2 years ago, I also realized that video would be an area that many would not touch till it's too late. Now I see u-tube and the march of digital video. As I type, I am now negotiating with some people in the USA to do video editing. Maybe we'll agree on something, maybe we won't. But as early as 2 years ago, I too saw that handwriting on the wall. Video will be a reconning force and industry in 3-5 years. It will gain the respect it deserves as we beging to see quality video for a much lower cost.

And guess what is driving it. Technology. Not just lower cost DV cameras, but because deep inside, the typical Pepe or Jose wants to be a photographer, or a film maker. I won't go into the human nature thing, coz it's going to be long, but technology empowered a lot to do things that only expensive gear or those entrenched in the industry were doing.

Now, how about that? Am I taking the livelihood of somebody in the USA when they want video editing outsourced? But isn't that the same with customer service and the billion peso call center biz? Didn't technology allowed someone like me, who can only dream of those expensive switching machines and cannot afford the U$8,000 AVID Pro software and equipment, not to mention those U$25,000 cameras and Arri lights to be able to deliver equivalent quality of work for so much less?

And here's a shocker that will likely happen. The threat in the photography industy's next wave of technology won' t be another 22mp, high DR, foveon type, dslr. It will be a video camera.

And that is why I am now learning how to shoot and edit video. Been learning it for 2.5 years now. The next wave is no longer photoshop or Lightroom. It's the NLE. And trust me, the tool is the easiest thing to learn (though it is really harder if you ask me.

Therefore, what Louie experienced has started really 4-5 years ago. It's just people are not trained to see enabling/disruptive technolgies that would affect them. And what people are experiencing now is the fruituition of what has happened years before. It's not as if it just burst into the scene overnight.

a thought on how people regard output of a professional....

again... this is me thinking out loud.

people might be thinking... what this much thousands of pesos for just taking pictures when i can do it myself!!! it is sometimes very hard to put a price tag on a service that we do. and it is even harder for the clients to understand why we are charging 15000 for a 6 hour work, for example.

i together with another doctor did an appecdectomy to remove an infected appendix of the patient. because of the easy anatomy of the patient, together with his thin abdominal fat, and maybe, divine providence, we were able to take out the appendix in 15 minutes.

when it is time for the patient to pay the professional fee, they were asking why we had to charge 15000 for a 15 minute operation. that is 1000 a minute they said.

i forgot already how i answered that inquiry. however, i was thinking, the 15000 pesos should not be broken down to the 15 minutes. it should be divided by 15 years -- the amount of time one has to spend training and studying in order to be competent enough to operate very fast, resulting to lower amount of blood loss and a lower amount of time the patient will spend under anesthesia, which is beneficial to the patient since a longer anesthesia time is associated to a number of complications.

so broken down, it is 15000 divided by 15 years is 1000 pesos per year... A BARGAIN.

sorry for the analogy some may consider not applicable.

but photographers, IMHO, should learn to value themselves not just based on the number of raw or jpeg files we are giving clients, not just the amount of time, the number of lay-outs that we will do.

we are a lot more than just assembly line workers.

how long and what kind of investment have you given to the craft? in terms of time? money? late night work? time away from family?

what is the output?

again this is just my humble opinion stated in raw since i am just thinking out loud.

Christian,

Your examples are true and are correct. No different from photography, except, with digital photography, the learning curve has been cut by years. The LCD and instant feedback, is probably the single thing that has allowed amateurs and wannabees to improve dramatically. Not to mention that you don't spend money on film, developing, and printing just to do some test shots.

In medicine, I saw on tv, there are dummy cadavers that you can cut up that has the same feel, response as the real thing. Well, not really 100 percent, but if we have this technology, then the learning curve in the field is lessened greatly.

I also saw on tv about a week ago, some dummy but this time, it's a dummy to help one deliver babies.

what these things do is cut down on the learning curve or accumulating of experince. Couple this with the Internet and online consultation and exhanging of images, then you learn faster and even better in some instances.

Of course, there is still a need to do it "live" or real time. But because of these technologies, the avg Jose has cut down the steep learning curve so that when one finally does go to an apprenticeship or Internship, most of the rough edges are gone and what you learn are contextual situations w/c require adjustments to your basic know-how. You can shoot wth your digicam for a year but only in the field in an actual wedding, for example, will you get the experience that technology can no longer answer. Unusual Mixed lighting, a grouchy bride, tense mother, etc. These are the things, that a doctor or photographer cannot replicate with simulations, dummies, or practicing with your dslrs. In the end, there will still be a need for apprenticeship of some sort, or OJT. But at least, the basics are now solid. Thanks to techonology.

That is what digital did, hence the predicament of Louie. This is why barriers to entry has been lowered dramatically.

Hey man, chill out, to be honest, I don't have a photography career, I really suck at it :D

Probably I might be a fine art photographer and start my exhibit, maybe my first theme is about manholes, what do you think? :Dum:

Jared,

Don't do an exhibit. What probably would be good for you would be to create issue no 1 of Jared, a la FHM. You shoot from front to cover, including a centerfold, while you can contact, Emries, or Troy for the articles in-between. :Grin:

How long will you still be around? Maybe we can meet?

There was a time when I worried about my daughter taking up computer science. I asked her, "what will you do when computers become obsolete?" Very quickly, she answered, "I will be with whatever will replace computers."

There are many handwritings on the wall as far as advertising photography is concerned :( , but as long as we are willing to learn whatever will replace it, then we would be okay. :)

In the meantime, we'd just have to keep on shooting :D and trying to see how we can best serve our clients.

Jared,

Don't do an exhibit. What probably would be good for you would be to create issue no 1 of Jared, a la FHM. You shoot from front to cover, including a centerfold, while you can contact, Emries, or Troy for the articles in-between. :Grin:

How long will you still be around? Maybe we can meet?

Hahaha, that's a good idea, but better stop me now coz I'm really contemplating of doing it :Grin:

I'm back in Singapore, I really had a very short vacation and had to squeeze in a lot of commitments. But I will be around there the next 6 months or earlier for another break. By that time maybe we can meet and put down our lenses for a while. :)

There was a time when I worried about my daughter taking up computer science. I asked her, "what will you do when computers become obsolete?" Very quickly, she answered, "I will be with whatever will replace computers."

There are many handwritings on the wall as far as advertising photography is concerned :( , but as long as we are willing to learn whatever will replace it, then we would be okay. :)

In the meantime, we'd just have to keep on shooting :D and trying to see how we can best serve our clients.

Harvey, I think I know who your daughter is and I guess she really mean it. :)

i THINK the usual general market principles are at work here largely supply vs demand.

to help raise your price one has to:

differentiate/ specialize
find a niche and charge high
build brand value which some pros are very close to doing if not has done so already particularly in the fine arts fieldmy challenge to myself is how high not how low i can charge IF i go pro.. thats just me :D

my challenge to myself is how high not how low i can charge IF i go pro.. thats just me :D

That's actually the right attitude. It's a business, after all.

The problem that I think some pros encounter is that they make the job look too easy.

We've become too good at what we do that we get the job done quickly. I believe that some clients think "If the job looks so easy to do, why not hire someone else the next time who will do the job cheaper?"

The problem that I think some pros encounter is that they make the job look too easy.

We've become too good at what we do that we get the job done quickly. I believe that some clients think "If the job looks so easy to do, why not hire someone else the next time who will do the job cheaper?"
... then I think that's where page 1 of this thread came into existence :)

I heavily agree on this sir Jo.

Now imagine if the client has some knowledge in photography, and we started making it look difficult and time consuming just so we look worth it, wouldn't the client also hire somebody else that looks like they know what they are doing and does it fast? Time is money to most. We can't win :(

The problem that I think some pros encounter is that they make the job look too easy.

We've become too good at what we do that we get the job done quickly. I believe that some clients think "If the job looks so easy to do, why not hire someone else the next time who will do the job cheaper?"


Jo,

Not really. All good craftsmen, artists have a way of making it look easy. That is really the reason why they are good. They do it easily. No strain, relaxed, but focused. Be it a Tiger Woods, a Sam Boy Lim, or Lisa Macuha, the hallmark of a master is to do something normally hard to do, but with ease, hiding the complexity and difficulty to the observer.

There was one person who thought that it was easy what I was doing because of all the fangled technology and how fast I normally do things. I then handed her my dslr, with everything set to P and pointed it to a common subject (a person). I asked her to take her time and take some pictures. Afterwards, I did the same, but only quicker. Then we scrolled through the review of the LCD. I then asked her, w/c is the picture she liked best. She picked one of my shots. I then said, "How come? We both were in the same spot, both in the same P setting, used all the technology, had the same lighting, same subject, etc., !?"

No, I do not believe it's because the skilled ones do it quicker or faster. In our craft, there is always the picture as proof of the effort. And it is a simple matter to demonstrate that it's not the tools or the speed by which the craftsman does it. Anybody who thinks so, will rue the day they try it for themselves and find out they cannot get the same results.

What technology has done, however, is make it easier to find out your mistakes or how good you did. Technology has made it easier to do things that normally would take time or require much effort. Matrix metering or evaluative metering, IS/VR/OS, AF, etc has made it easier to make easier to achive technicaly correct pictures. And if a master has these advantages, then it is easier to produce more wonderful pictures. By the same token, an amateur gets more "lucky" and does not have to go through lots of exposure or blur issues. This is the lowering of the barriers to entry, not to mention the lowering of the cost involved.

For me, the real causes of some pro's problems are:

1. some old timers have become complacent in their craft and failed to improve or refuse to adjust to the changing times.

2. technology, particularly the move obsolesnces of film and the rise of digital photography has lowered the learning curve so that what took years or decades to learn is now cut down dramatically.

3. This in turn allowed others, who normally would not even try or shoot, enter into fields that only the brave and the focused ones attempted.

4. in some segiments of the market, many still to this day do not know what constitute a good photo or not. This leads to marginalization of what is "good" vs what is so-so.

The problem that I think some pros encounter is that they make the job look too easy.

We've become too good at what we do that we get the job done quickly. I believe that some clients think "If the job looks so easy to do, why not hire someone else the next time who will do the job cheaper?"

Hi Jo,

John had a shoot once - of liquid (beverage) splashing. He had his set up - product, lights, reflector, computer - on when the client arrived in the afternoon, at exactly call time. He sat in front of the computer. John did a couple of shots, and he liked what he saw. In fact, he liked it very much. Seeing that he was very satisfied, we asked if we should call it a wrap. He was surprised at how easy it was naman pala (two shots lang, di ba?), so he was trying to re-negotiate the price. It was at this point that John scrolled through all the previous shots that he had done of the set up - more than a 100 - before client came. It showed the changes in the lighting and in the splashing technique. With that, he was convinced that the amount his company was going to pay was right.

You are right - clients do get the impression that it is an easy job - something they can do themselves. So another client, seeing how much fun and how "easy" it was decided to buy her own camera, and even asked John to teach her. So John did. So we lost the next job - she decided to do photography for her own company. But guess what, we got back the account when she found out that her company could earn more from her managing than from her being its photographer.

I think the point that I am trying to make is that we need to communicate properly with our clients so we can erase whatever false impressions they get about photography and photographers. And sometimes, we just have to let both clients and other photographers make the same mistakes we did when we were just starting, and decide if they are serious about becoming professional photographers. It's not an easy job, but it's true - you guys really make it look so easy and so much fun. :D

Hi Jo,

John had a shoot once - of liquid (beverage) splashing. He had his set up - product, lights, reflector, computer - on when the client arrived in the afternoon, at exactly call time. He sat in front of the computer. John did a couple of shots, and he liked what he saw. In fact, he liked it very much. Seeing that he was very satisfied, we asked if we should call it a wrap. He was surprised at how easy it was naman pala (two shots lang, di ba?), so he was trying to re-negotiate the price. It was at this point that John scrolled through all the previous shots that he had done of the set up - more than a 100 - before client came. It showed the changes in the lighting and in the splashing technique. With that, he was convinced that the amount his company was going to pay was right.

You are right - clients do get the impression that it is an easy job - something they can do themselves. So another client, seeing how much fun and how "easy" it was decided to buy her own camera, and even asked John to teach her. So John did. So we lost the next job - she decided to do photography for her own company. But guess what, we got back the account when she found out that her company could earn more from her managing than from her being its photographer.

I think the point that I am trying to make is that we need to communicate properly with our clients so we can erase whatever false impressions they get about photography and photographers. And sometimes, we just have to let both clients and other photographers make the same mistakes we did when we were just starting, and decide if they are serious about becoming professional photographers. It's not an easy job, but it's true - you guys really make it look so easy and so much fun. :D

Good story, Harvey!

Here's another recent one.

Last Sunday, we shot a baptismal. A well to do couple. Exclusive access to the baptismal room with 30 min time allotted for a private "showing."

One of the ninongs/friends of the family had a spanking d80 with a 18-200 vr and a grip. Very nice. He was a very nice person to and allowed me to handle the unit for a while. I was hired for video (though I let my partner shoot it as he needed the money :Grin:). By the way he held his d80 and where he positioned himself, and the amount of time he worked on a shot, and how the 18-200 extended, a seasoned events shooter already has a clue as to what to expect from his shots. And true enough, later when I handled his d80 kit again as I had to shoot him with the family, the lack of "pro" standard output showed.

No, I am not dissing the shooter, or the gear. It's just shows that just getting the gear and "looking like it" isn't the same as being "it." There is really a lot more than just getting good equipment. One must be able to use it and bring out not the best in the gear, but the best in the shot one is taking. In time, I hope that that nice gentleman who owns a d80, grip and 18-200 vr lens gets to improve in his photography.

Later on, there was slideshow of pictures from the couple. Very lengthy and boring with pictures blurred, redundant, poor composition. But hey, it was their kid. And any baby is cute even if the shots are blurry!:) I decided to whip up a slideshow as I had my notebook with me. And true enough, the pros work shone through. (A little buhat banko here :Grin:). So, that's what the client is paying for - powerful images that captured the day. Not just hackneyed snapshots.

We as pros (I'm a semi-pro), must do a show and tell every now and then, so that our clients know that what we do isn't as "simple" as they think it is. The example of John Chua is one classic example. I can still cite countless other examples, but I've made sure because of past experience that I can do a show and tell if need be. I am not fond of this, but we must take measures to assure our clients that we do honest work and above standard work. In fact, it is our duty to inform our clients if need be. It's not just about showing off, but educating them that it's not the gear in the end, but the shooter creating (literally) the images. And the process, though effortless or easy to them, is really not so easy when one is not trained or has gone through the cycle of learning the thing.

Clients must be reminded and educated that they are really paying for our skills, our vision. And on our part, we must CONSISTENTLY, deliver high quality output. That is the hallmark of a true pro. By doing so, we remain viable and helps secure future jobs and expand our client base. It also helps repel, to some extent, new entrants that may encoach into the turf.

Good story, Harvey!

Here's another recent one.

Last Sunday, we shot a baptismal. A well to do couple. Exclusive access to the baptismal room with 30 min time allotted for a private "showing."

One of the ninongs/friends of the family had a spanking d80 with a 18-200 vr and a grip. Very nice. He was a very nice person to and allowed me to handle the unit for a while. I was hired for video (though I let my partner shoot it as he needed the money :Grin:). By the way he held his d80 and where he positioned himself, and the amount of time he worked on a shot, and how the 18-200 extended, a seasoned events shooter already has a clue as to what to expect from his shots. And true enough, later when I handled his d80 kit again as I had to shoot him with the family, the lack of "pro" standard output showed.

No, I am not dissing the shooter, or the gear. It's just shows that just getting the gear and "looking like it" isn't the same as being "it." There is really a lot more than just getting good equipment. One must be able to use it and bring out not the best in the gear, but the best in the shot one is taking. In time, I hope that that nice gentleman who owns a d80, grip and 18-200 vr lens gets to improve in his photography.

Later on, there was slideshow of pictures from the couple. Very lengthy and boring with pictures blurred, redundant, poor composition. But hey, it was their kid. And any baby is cute even if the shots are blurry!:) I decided to whip up a slideshow as I had my notebook with me. And true enough, the pros work shone through. (A little buhat banko here :Grin:). So, that's what the client is paying for - powerful images that captured the day. Not just hackneyed snapshots.

We as pros (I'm a semi-pro), must do a show and tell every now and then, so that our clients know that what we do isn't as "simple" as they think it is. The example of John Chua is one classic example. I can still cite countless other examples, but I've made sure because of past experience that I can do a show and tell if need be. I am not fond of this, but we must take measures to assure our clients that we do honest work and above standard work. In fact, it is our duty to inform our clients if need be. It's not just about showing off, but educating them that it's not the gear in the end, but the shooter creating (literally) the images. And the process, though effortless or easy to them, is really not so easy when one is not trained or has gone through the cycle of learning the thing.

Clients must be reminded and educated that they are really paying for our skills, our vision. And on our part, we must CONSISTENTLY, deliver high quality output. That is the hallmark of a true pro. By doing so, we remain viable and helps secure future jobs and expand our client base. It also helps repel, to some extent, new entrants that may encoach into the turf.


i couldn't agree more. well said mel. :)

One of the ninongs/friends of the family had a spanking d80 with a 18-200 vr and a grip. Very nice. He was a very nice person to and allowed me to handle the unit for a while. I was hired for video (though I let my partner shoot it as he needed the money :Grin:).
This reminds me of when Ed Yap of i-Mag Magazine talked about his friend in the States who, because most of the Pinoy guests at weddings and events which he was hired to photograph carry high-end digital cameras, was forced to buy himself a Hasselblad so as to put himself above the rest.

On the other side of the spectrum, many years ago, while gallivanting at NYC clubs, we had a friend whom we depended upon for entrance and access to VIP rooms. He was a photography enthuiast and worked as a club promoter to pay his rent. As luck would have it, he met Andy Warhol who suggested that he toss out his Nikon SLR for a point & shoot camera. He did.

Long story short: This guy Patrick had his coffee table book book published a couple of years ago which features various people photographed with his point and shoot camera. With it, people felt less intimidated and welcomed him to take their photos. He never once had to resort to paparazzi- and guerilla-type photography. By the way, most of his subjects were hard to photograph celebrities. Prior to the publication of his book, he also made a good living by selling his photos to various media houses not only in the States but in Europe and Australia as well.

Invariably, even with a cheap tool, someone made a good living from it, because that someone became really good in making use of it.

This reminds me of when Ed Yap of i-Mag Magazine talked about his friend in the States who, because most of the Pinoy guests at weddings and events which he was hired to photograph carry high-end digital cameras, was forced to buy himself a Hasselblad so as to put himself above the rest.

On the other side of the spectrum, many years ago, while gallivanting at NYC clubs, we had a friend whom we depended upon for entrance and access to VIP rooms. He was a photography enthuiast and worked as a club promoter to pay his rent. As luck would have it, he met Andy Warhol who suggested that he toss out his Nikon SLR for a point & shoot camera. He did.

Long story short: This guy Patrick had his coffee table book book published a couple of years ago which features various people photographed with his point and shoot camera. With it, people felt less intimidated and welcomed him to take their photos. He never once had to resort to paparazzi- and guerilla-type photography. By the way, most of his subjects were hard to photograph celebrities. Prior to the publication of his book, he also made a good living by selling his photos to various media houses not only in the States but in Europe and Australia as well.

Invariably, even with a cheap tool, someone made a good living from it, because that someone became really good in making use of it.

Hmmm, I think my next buy is a Ricoh GR :Grin:. OT i-Mag Photography is a very nice magazine, lately they featured the works of Bob Razon. Amazing.

if you are really a gifted artist/purist photographer and producing master piece products or perform exceptionally good services, customers/clients will be seeking you. you can name your price and tell the customer/client 'take it or leave it'.

if you are one of the many good/skilled enterpreneur/photographers nowadays peddling your products/services to customers/clients, expect stiff competitions. this is a typical case where business is 'war'.

and as the saying goes 'ALL IS FAIR IN LOVE AND WAR'

yes there are rules and ethics in business. but how are they being interpreted. it depends mostly in what position you are in. if you are in the

loser's position, you may claim that you lost the project/sales because your competitor uses some unethical practices. to say that your competitor is trying to murder your business is over exagerated.

winner's position will surely denies he uses some unethical practices. he will claim that he won because he just outsmarted his competitor with a very good orchestrated strategy. that he won the project fair and square.

the topic of this thread is MURDERING THE PHOTOGRAPHY INDUSTRY. i just can't imagine how it can be murdered. i know some business photographers my cop-out. if that happens the business died not because it was murdered. most probably it died because the general commanding the business was unable to come up with viable strategies to win in succeeding battles. so the business here must have died in action not murdered.

....... so the business here must have died in action not murdered.

Niffty way at looking at it from another perspective........:)

Mel,

I am concurring with the previous post that used a surgical procedure as an analogy.

Some clients think that the job is easy and wonder why they have to pay so much for something that looked effortless to do.

The fail to see the amount of time, effort and practice it took to make it look easy :D

But the points that you raised are also valid :D

Jo,

Not really. All good craftsmen, artists have a way of making it look easy. That is really the reason why they are good. They do it easily. No strain, relaxed, but focused. Be it a Tiger Woods, a Sam Boy Lim, or Lisa Macuha, the hallmark of a master is to do something normally hard to do, but with ease, hiding the complexity and difficulty to the observer.

There was one person who thought that it was easy what I was doing because of all the fangled technology and how fast I normally do things. I then handed her my dslr, with everything set to P and pointed it to a common subject (a person). I asked her to take her time and take some pictures. Afterwards, I did the same, but only quicker. Then we scrolled through the review of the LCD. I then asked her, w/c is the picture she liked best. She picked one of my shots. I then said, "How come? We both were in the same spot, both in the same P setting, used all the technology, had the same lighting, same subject, etc., !?"

No, I do not believe it's because the skilled ones do it quicker or faster. In our craft, there is always the picture as proof of the effort. And it is a simple matter to demonstrate that it's not the tools or the speed by which the craftsman does it. Anybody who thinks so, will rue the day they try it for themselves and find out they cannot get the same results.

What technology has done, however, is make it easier to find out your mistakes or how good you did. Technology has made it easier to do things that normally would take time or require much effort. Matrix metering or evaluative metering, IS/VR/OS, AF, etc has made it easier to make easier to achive technicaly correct pictures. And if a master has these advantages, then it is easier to produce more wonderful pictures. By the same token, an amateur gets more "lucky" and does not have to go through lots of exposure or blur issues. This is the lowering of the barriers to entry, not to mention the lowering of the cost involved.

For me, the real causes of some pro's problems are:

1. some old timers have become complacent in their craft and failed to improve or refuse to adjust to the changing times.

2. technology, particularly the move obsolesnces of film and the rise of digital photography has lowered the learning curve so that what took years or decades to learn is now cut down dramatically.

3. This in turn allowed others, who normally would not even try or shoot, enter into fields that only the brave and the focused ones attempted.

4. in some segiments of the market, many still to this day do not know what constitute a good photo or not. This leads to marginalization of what is "good" vs what is so-so.

Interesting read ;-)

The Art of Business: The Secrets of Sustaining Success
http://www.creativepro.com/story/feature/23132.html?cprose=daily

Interesting read ;-)

The Art of Business: The Secrets of Sustaining Success
http://www.creativepro.com/story/feature/23132.html?cprose=daily

For a quick sec, thought you were referring to Sun Tzu's.

Hmmm ... I ought to check out your recommended book.

For a quick sec, thought you were referring to Sun Tzu's.

Hmmm ... I ought to check out your recommended book.

SUN TZU! I love that guy. My sister gave me Sun Tzu: The Art of War for Managers when I got in the management program of my uni.

Actually I nicked the link from an ongoing thread in lightstalkers.

http://www.lightstalkers.org/making_the_break___readiness

Check out how some photogs advised an aspiring freelancer.

Here's a list of books on the business of photography. Some are on the business of stock photography.

1. Sellphotos.com by Rohn Engh (Writer's Digest Books, 2000)

2. Sell & Re-Sell Your Photos by Rohn Engh (Writer's Digest Books, 2003)

3. Creating a Digital Portfolio - A Guide to Marketing and Self-Promotion [w/ CD ROM] by Cynthia Baron (Hayden Books, 1996)

4. How to Shoot Stock Photos that Sell by Michal Heron (Alworth Press, 1990)

5. ASMP Profesional Business Practices in Photography 6th Edition by the American Society of Media Photographers (Allworth

Press, 2001)

6. Photography Your Way: A Career Guide to Satisfaction and Success by Chuck Delaney. 2005

7. Profitable Photography in the Digital Age: Strategies for Success by Dan Heller. 2005

8. Photo Portfolio Success: A Guide to Submitting and Selling Your Photographs by John Kaplan (Writer's Digest Books, 2003)

9. Photography: Focus on Profit [includes CD-ROM of PhotoByte] by Tom Zimberoff (Allworth Press, 2002)

10. The Big Picture: The Professional Photographer's Guide to Rights, Rates and Negotiations by Lou Jacobs Jr. (Writer's Digest Books, 2000)

11. Photographers' Guide to Marketing and Promotions by Maria Piscopo (I know there are at least two editions, maybe even a third).

If you want to browse through these books before buying your own copy, just let me know.

Many thanks, Tammy and Harvey!

Truly appreciate it.

10. The Big Picture: The Professional Photographer's Guide to Rights, Rates and Negotiations by Lou Jacobs Jr. (Writer's Digest Books, 2000)

11. Photographers' Guide to Marketing and Promotions by Maria Piscopo (I know there are at least two editions, maybe even a third).

Wow are these available locally? I hope so. I'm tired of getting ordered stuff every May and December ;p

Wow are these available locally? I hope so. I'm tired of getting ordered stuff every May and December ;p

Hi Tammy,

What's with May and December?

I've seen the Maria Piscopo book in local bookstores, but the copies were probably few and gone by now. However, you should be able to order it through Fully Booked or Power Books.

The "Big Picture" I got at Basheer's - a specialty bookstore (they carry only art books - photography, graphic design, architecture etc.) which has branches in Singapore, HK, KL, and I think Jakarta. I've asked them to open in Manila but I don't think they're familiar with the market here.

Unfortunately, most bookstores carry only a few copies of titles on the business of photography, but now that you have the names of the books, you could place special orders for them. I'd like to repeat my invitation - if you wish to browse first before ordering your copy, feel free to contact me.

For anyone interested in the ASMP book, I saw one copy at Goodwill Bookstore in Glorietta last time I was there (November or December last year) and it might still be there. It's on the second floor.

Good luck.

how much po yung mga books? :D

how much po yung mga books? :D

I don't remember the prices of all the books I listed in my previous post since we have been acquiring these books through the years. However, I have my copy of "The Big Picture - The Professional Photographer's Guide to Rights, Rates and Negotiations" on my desk right now and the sticker says S$34.00 (or U.S. $17.99). It might even be lower if available on Amazon or EBay, as you can get second hand copies.

Hi Tammy,

What's with May and December?

Friends come home from the US during Summer and Christmas break :)

I've seen the Maria Piscopo book in local bookstores, but the copies were probably few and gone by now. However, you should be able to order it through Fully Booked or Power Books.

The "Big Picture" I got at Basheer's - a specialty bookstore (they carry only art books - photography, graphic design, architecture etc.) which has branches in Singapore, HK, KL, and I think Jakarta. I've asked them to open in Manila but I don't think they're familiar with the market here.

Great! I'll call the folks at Powerbooks and Fully Booked (though no call backs yet on "Understanding Exposure" gah) and try my luck.

I better ask my brother to check out Basheer's in KL. I hope it's located at a mall. Yay for expats.

I'd like to repeat my invitation - if you wish to browse first before ordering your copy, feel free to contact me.

Yay! how kind of you Ma'am Harvey. I'll let you know. I'm excited! I'm a sucker for books. Actually you know what, my old man knows you. He used to be in advertising. He told me before that the reason why he bought a Leica Digilux back in 2003 is because "John Chua bought one for his wife" haha copy cats

Actually you know what, my old man knows you. He used to be in advertising. He told me before that the reason why he bought a Leica Digilux back in 2003 is because "John Chua bought one for his wife" haha copy cats

It was a gift from a Singaporean friend. It's a good camera but not very handy.

As for Basheer - here's where you can find them.

SINGAPORE
BASHEER GRAPHIC BOOKS
231 Bain Street,
#04-19 Bras Basah Complex,
Singapore 180231.

Tel: (65) 6336 0810
Fax: (65) 6334 1950
Email: enquiry@basheergraphic.com


HONG KONG
BASHEER DESIGN BOOKS(HK) LTD
1/F, Flat A, Island Building
439-441 Hennessy Road
Causeway Bay
Hong Kong

Tel: (852) 21267533
Fax: (852) 21267535
Email: basheer@netvigator.com

MALAYSIA
BASHEER GRAPHIC BOOKS Sdn.Bhd
Third Floor 001, Bukit Bintang Plaza
Jalan Bukit Bintang
Kulala Lumpur - 55100
Malaysia

Tel: (603) 2713 2236
Fax: (603) 21432236
Email: bgbooks@tm.net.my

INDONESIA
BASHEER GRAPHIC BOOKS
4.02 Plaza Blok M
Jalan Bulungan
Jakarta - 12130
Indonesia

Tel/Fax: (62 21) 7209151

THAILAND
BASHEER GRAPHIC BOOKS
998/7 Soi Sukhumvit 55
Sukhumvit Street, Wattana
Bangkok - 10110
Thailand

Tel: (66 2) 3919815
Fax: (66 2) 3919814
Email: basheer_th@hotmail.com

I think we've gone OT. Maybe we should start a new thread on photography books.

From my observation, what's dying is the middle level photographers. There are the top level (big studio, equipped with the latest gears and are top of mind of big companies, middle level (with or without studios, with gear adequate for what they do) and the semi -pro amatuer level (most of the time have the best gear, even better equipped than the middle level, but most of the time have a job that sustains the passion).

The semi-pro amatuer level will do it for the opportunity and not the money, but since many of them are skilled too, companies are getting good photos for a cheaper price, since prices are diving, top level and middle level are having a hard time, but since the top level can easily drop prices (ask around how much their prices were 2 to 3 years ago) and accept a lower profit (profit it still is), while the middle level just can't, considering their profit margin is not as high as the top level. They can't drop it to the semi-pro amatuer level, since they don't have another job to maintain food in their tables. Now when clients see that the Top level and the middle level are priced not far apart, who do you think will get the job?

I have come to a point that I am understanding how these semi-pro amatuer think, I know the enthusiasm they are feeling, and I can't blame them for that. If I had (but didn't) have the same opportunity years back when I was starting, then I would probably be guilty of the same thing. So I am not sure if I should be thankful or not for having those opportunities, since it tought me the value of what I know, but on the other hand it took me longer to know everything I know now.

Here's a list of books on the business of photography. Some are on the business of stock photography.

1. Sellphotos.com by Rohn Engh (Writer's Digest Books, 2000)

2. Sell & Re-Sell Your Photos by Rohn Engh (Writer's Digest Books, 2003)

3. Creating a Digital Portfolio - A Guide to Marketing and Self-Promotion [w/ CD ROM] by Cynthia Baron (Hayden Books, 1996)

4. How to Shoot Stock Photos that Sell by Michal Heron (Alworth Press, 1990)

5. ASMP Profesional Business Practices in Photography 6th Edition by the American Society of Media Photographers (Allworth

Press, 2001)

6. Photography Your Way: A Career Guide to Satisfaction and Success by Chuck Delaney. 2005

7. Profitable Photography in the Digital Age: Strategies for Success by Dan Heller. 2005

8. Photo Portfolio Success: A Guide to Submitting and Selling Your Photographs by John Kaplan (Writer's Digest Books, 2003)

9. Photography: Focus on Profit [includes CD-ROM of PhotoByte] by Tom Zimberoff (Allworth Press, 2002)

10. The Big Picture: The Professional Photographer's Guide to Rights, Rates and Negotiations by Lou Jacobs Jr. (Writer's Digest Books, 2000)

11. Photographers' Guide to Marketing and Promotions by Maria Piscopo (I know there are at least two editions, maybe even a third).

If you want to browse through these books before buying your own copy, just let me know.
I have read book #4 over and over and it's excellent for those who can easily get the drift. :)

I read book #10 from our community library. but there's a fundamental pre-requisite to make the book work for you, you have to be a skilled negotiator too! :)

I read book #10 from our community library. but there's a fundamental pre-requisite to make the book work for you, you have to be a skilled negotiator too! :)

i beg to disagree. Being a skilled negotiator is not a prerequisite but a goal of this book. The author hopes that, by sharing insights and techniques, photographers will learn what his rights are and how to defend them, how to price and how to negotiate for them, and how to prepare proposals and win projects. This book cites real experiences of successful photographers, and helps those who are just getting into the business to learn the ropes.

Let's face it. Some photographers can do very good photography as well as handle the business very well. Some photographers, no matter how good they are as photographers, are poor negotiators and will be better off hiring or taking in a business partner who can negotiate for them.

This book is an essential tool for any photographer who wants to learn a living from doing photography. it will help photographers to realize and defend the position that photographers and clients serve each other, and provide value to each other, and therefore should treat each other as partners.

If, as a photographer, you don't want to be involved in the business of negotiating with clients, give this book to your manager or account executive.

From my observation, what's dying is the middle level photographers.

... but since the top level can easily drop prices (ask around how much their prices were 2 to 3 years ago) and accept a lower profit (profit it still is), while the middle level just can't, considering their profit margin is not as high as the top level.
.

I believe I have heard a European regional (Asia) manager of a photo equipment company give the same observation, especially with regards the Japanese market. Digital photography equipment has pushed photographers to go either to the high end, or to enter at the low end level, leaving the middle grounds empty.

Just to clear up some pricing/profit issues:

I beg to differ with the assumption that the top levels can afford to drop prices because their prices are high to start with. The components of price include profit and costs, and these - either profits or costs - vary from company to company across the board, no matter what the size. Some small companies may have bigger profits because they have smaller overheads; on the other hand, some big companies may have bigger profits because they have the economies of scale working in their favor. The reverse situation - lower or no profits - is possible, whether you are a big or small company.

Some companies may have higher costs because they have invested in high-end equipment, better facilities or manpower development. But it could also be true that a company's higher cost may have been caused by faulty or wasteful investments - such as buying whatever is new in the market, or having a mismatch of equipment and skills, resulting in underutilized equipment.

As for the softening of prices in the past few years, this is what we experienced:

We have lowered prices in recent years not only as a response to economic pressures, but also because we have found more efficient ways of doing photography. Case in point - we used to be able to do only three car beauty shots in one l-o-o-o-n-g day, and we needed at least six assistants to help set up reflectors. We used up lots of Polaroids, films etc. In 2003, we built another studio that is ideal for car shoots, which now has an electrically/electronically-controlled main reflector, reducing our need for assistants to one or two. Digital equipment has eliminated the expense for Polaroids and films. We can now do as many as ten beauty shots vs. 3 in the past, and still finish early. Therefore, because our costs were reduced, and our efficiency improved, we were able to share the savings with clients by reducing prices.

But not all costs have gone down (electricity is up, so are transportation and communications costs, salaries etc.), and so we have to really study the numbers to see how we can continue to be profitable, because it is only in being profitable that we can continue to provide the best values to our clients and to our people.

Thanks for the opportunity to share with you our own experience, which may or may not be true with other photographers. I hope sharing helps all of us. :)

maybe the photographer they hired is just probably doing it as an experience rather than to make an income.

That is very sad!!!! what is even sadder is.....

What if..... the rate-diving photographer is in fact an excellent photographer??

There must be a "pill" for this disease

I was just informed by the client that they got another photographer who is charging P2,500 for the entire project!!!!!!! I have to cry MURDER! That's a merciless stab at the photography industry!

Holy cow. Big-timers will always have their high school cousins around.

We have lowered prices in recent years not only as a response to economic pressures, but also because we have found more efficient ways of doing photography.

So rather than reap the extra profit, by lowering overhead, we should drop our price? Or we drop price if there are economic pressures, then find a way to be more efficient?

i beg to disagree. Being a skilled negotiator is not a prerequisite but a goal of this book. The author hopes that, by sharing insights and techniques, photographers will learn what his rights are and how to defend them, how to price and how to negotiate for them, and how to prepare proposals and win projects. This book cites real experiences of successful photographers, and helps those who are just getting into the business to learn the ropes.

Let's face it. Some photographers can do very good photography as well as handle the business very well. Some photographers, no matter how good they are as photographers, are poor negotiators and will be better off hiring or taking in a business partner who can negotiate for them.

This book is an essential tool for any photographer who wants to learn a living from doing photography. it will help photographers to realize and defend the position that photographers and clients serve each other, and provide value to each other, and therefore should treat each other as partners.

If, as a photographer, you don't want to be involved in the business of negotiating with clients, give this book to your manager or account executive.

But from my experience, no book can teach someone to become a negotiator, it is gained by experience and with a very good mentor. Sometimes the book may work only in a certain demographical segment, or in a hemisphere with a culture that is at "home" with the reader of this book. Even if the book has certain points, the other side of the negotiating party can easily "smell" if you're a "textbook" negotiator or a "streetsmart" negotiator and will adjust accordingly. Even if the book's goal is for a photographer to become a negotiator, it's still not enough. It doesn't teach the reader how not to be pissed off with a difficult client, it doesn't tell the qualities of difficult client (which you can only really learn from experience). It only tells vaguely when to walk away from a negotiation and don't feel losing at all.

At some point the book is useless in a country where photography industry is somehow "protected" by its community where everybody's response to a bad client is "Go find someone cheaper".

But from my experience, no book can teach someone to become a negotiator, it is gained by experience and with a very good mentor. Sometimes the book may work only in a certain demographical segment, or in a hemisphere with a culture that is at "home" with the reader of this book. Even if the book has certain points, the other side of the negotiating party can easily "smell" if you're a "textbook" negotiator or a "streetsmart" negotiator and will adjust accordingly. Even if the book's goal is for a photographer to become a negotiator, it's still not enough. It doesn't teach the reader how not to be pissed off with a difficult client, it doesn't tell the qualities of difficult client (which you can only really learn from experience). It only tells vaguely when to walk away from a negotiation and don't feel losing at all.

At some point the book is useless in a country where photography industry is somehow "protected" by its community where everybody's response to a bad client is "Go find someone cheaper".

Very astute of you, Jared.

To me books on salesmanship are good starting points and bullet points. They serve as reminders or as summary references. In truth, some people are really very, very good negotiators or salesmen. Some will have to work harder and even if they do work hard, those who are not born with it, will have to gain the skill for a longer time.

It's not to say that they won't make it, but they have to log on in the experience to get to a certain level of skill and do lots of it to achieve a certain level. The inborn once, well, they shine in just a few outings. And even worse, they become master of it, with just a few deals.

Years ago, as I was browsing at NBS Cubao for some Mg't books for my Grad degree, I saw a flimsy book on Salesman ship. I got piqued and got it. ONe of the things I was doing wrong in closing deals was overselling. The book said, that there is a point in the negotiation and selling that you already have the client sold, but he hasn't said it yet. In such cases, the prudent way is to pause and keep quiet. This is the crucial time where the client is given the time to say, "I'm buying." This is a crucial point, BTW, because this is the point that the sale is actually made.

The book didn't cost much but it was one heck of a guide for me! In these instances, books are very important. But I agree with Jared, that in the field, you're actions, small twitches are signals, tone of voice can be read. And a good negotiator/salesman can "control" or manages these very well. He even knows when to be neutral faced.

As a computer geek myself, and hanging out in Greenhills most of the time, 9 of 10 of my friends years ago were Chinese selling PCs. I learned a lot as to how they sell their stuff. I saw how they smiled even if the client was Haw-Shaw, and how they helped in other. I also saw that preganant pause often. And I bet you, they didn't read the book I read.

Some are really very good or even Masters at the Art of selling. The best ones can sell anything, not just their photography. They can even sell, as the joke goes, a refrigirator or air-con to an Eskimo (no offense to the Inuits). In our overall industry, Javelosa seems to be the man. I can be corrected on this, but Ayala may be an artist, or the Tuazons, but you don't do 700 weddings/year on photographic skill alone. You have to be a great salesman to do it.

Now, I'm not saying he is a poor photographer (don't misinterpret it that way). What I am saying is that in the end, unless this is just a hobby and how much you earn is not important because you have a day job, let's not forget that this is still a BUSINESS. As such, the art of negotiating, of salesmanship is but one of the many facets a photographer must learn if he is to succeed in it as a business.

Basta, I will sharpen my skills in negotiating. When Jared finally makes his FHM-like magazine later on, I want to apply as his managing editor! :Grin: Or at least assistant photographer:D!

So rather than reap the extra profit, by lowering overhead, we should drop our price? Or we drop price if there are economic pressures, then find a way to be more efficient?

Ken,

Yes, if you have to. You have to learn to adjust, or you exit the market.

this is nothing new. This has been happening for thousands of years. It's just different circumstances, and different product/services, and more rapid now.

Some "pressures" are temporary. Some are clear signs that that will be new status quo. For example, if you insist on film when the rest of the world is shifting to digital and your production cost are higher with film, then better make your shots count more, because you can't erase, and you can't preview unless you use a polaroid first. But then, how much is a polaroid pack, if you can still find them?

It's always quoted that it's the Injun, not the Pana that counts most, But there are certain disruptive technologies that will hurt you long term because it's the Pana, not the Injun. The lowering cost of services may just be hiccup or it may be long term. Either way, making your workflow and production efficient is good overall, whether you still will charge high or low.

You can always insist on your prices, but when the market has spoken, then you best adjust or you die. Even making production efficient is not going to help in some cases. You can make the the cheapest but most durable Black & White TV in the world, but if nobody is buying it, then you better buy Michael Porter's book and analyze your situation.

Same situation, you can be the best B&W photographer in the Philippines, but if people want color prints, then you better adapt, or exit the market entirely.

... (though no call backs yet on "Understanding Exposure" gah) and try my luck.



Tammy, would you be so kind and let us know where you're able to get a copy if you do get one.


Thanks!

... (though no call backs yet on "Understanding Exposure" gah) and try my luck.
understanding exposure by bryan peterson is a great book, if anyone wants to have a copy, please pm me, i can get you one, i think powerbooks sells it for P1200, i can get it at a lower price

you know guys, reading from your posts, here's what i have to say...
first, certification would be good, but, imho. it will help inform photographers, but like in the wedding industry, there will be studios and there will ALWAYS be hunters. its just the way it works. there will be certified photographers (accredited ones) and there will always be the underdogs. and know what? like what the veterans here say, its all about quality. people will always go back to those who produce quality pictures and not because they are cheap (for advertising photography). for example. would you think that one of those ayala projects would go to the 2,500 charging photog or the expensive one? syempre mag tataka din yan kung baket sobrang cheap nun. and besides, with photography, alot will want to upgrade din in time, addictive yun mga gadgets, i dont think they will charge very low for a long time. or they wont last in the biz.

So rather than reap the extra profit, by lowering overhead, we should drop our price? Or we drop price if there are economic pressures, then find a way to be more efficient?

When it comes to pricing, advertising photographers have the most difficult time. Because work is customized - each project is different - we cannot rely on set rates, or a few price packages, in the same way that wedding and portrait photographers can.

There are many factors to consider, and prices as well as terms and conditions, are subject to negotiations.

How we wish we could simply reap the extra profit, but we have to consider economic realities. We can only charge up to what the market can bear. When prices are depressed, we have to look at how we can lower prices while still maintaining profit margins - and this is where controlling costs comes in. Greater efficiencies allow us to bring down prices without sacrificing profits or the quality of our work.

We are also in the long haul with clients, and we cannot simply aim for hitting the jackpot of having large profits at the expense of long term relationships. We grow with them - and that means we ride the wave with them, adjusting prices to accommodate budgets, for as long as we can. However, when a competitor - as in the situation that Louie cited - offers a ridiculously low bid, these are the times when we would have to walk away. We ask our clients what considerations they have in choosing the photographer for this project other than price. If they say that price IS THE determining factor, and that they are willing to sacrifice quality or take their chance with the low-bidding photographer, then we graciously tell our client - without burning bridges - that we will pass up this chance to serve them, and hope they call on us again for other projects.

The answer, therefore, to your second question is yes.

However, when the market can accommodate higher prices - when the economy is doing well and our clients are doing well- we find that they do not pinch pennies, and readily pay what it costs to have good photos done. At times like this, we do have greater profitability, and we set aside some profits for investing in better facilities and equipment and training our people, and funds for hard times which may come again (the economy does come in cycles). We also share profits with our people and contribute to our advocacies and favorite charities.

By the way, based on our 2006 results, the economy has recovered, so we all might want to try to negotiate for better prices and better terms for photographers. :)

Yes, if you have to. You have to learn to adjust, or you exit the market.



Just like what I posted earlier, the middle level is dying, because if they adjust their prices they suddenly become the enemy for murdering the indsutry, since unlike the top dogs, their prices are not 6 digits per layout. So what happens, they exit the market not always because of the name calling, but its just too low to maintain food in their tables.

So if at any level a photgrapher dropps his or her price, then they are all part of the conspiracy to murder the industry. Ex. if middle level dropps price, then what should the low end level do? I am guessing drop price too, so they don't loose the opportunity since price is the least of their problems (see my previous post for explenation).

Imagine BMW and Mercedes costing as much as toyota, would you still buy a toyota? These luxury car makers even with the economic slow down never dropped prices, in fact prices of these cars keep going up. What they did was focus on marketing why their cars cost this much and why its all worth it.

I don't know any other professions whose pricing dropped this much in the past few years, why is it? Was the economic slow down, photography specific.

Adjust down is very common, but this has made clients get use to lower prices, and adjusting up is not as easy.

you know guys, reading from your posts, here's what i have to say...
first, certification would be good

I don't know what the mechanics would be but I am in favor of certification, accreditation or any form of evaluating photographers and studios. Certification could be a voluntary program, but it would help photographers mark their own progress, and work hard to move from one level to a higher level, until one reaches the top. :)

since unlike the top dogs, their prices are not 6 digits per layout.



Wow! Now, that's something to aspire for. :Thinking:

Imagine BMW and Mercedes costing as much as toyota, would you still buy a toyota? These luxury car makers even with the economic slow down never dropped prices, in fact prices of these cars keep going up. What they did was focus on marketing why their cars cost this much and why its all worth it.



This explanation is not for those of you who are savvy businessmen, but for those who are just starting and may be confused by the discussions on this thread about pricing. I beg your understanding for the length of this post.

On the analogy of pricing cars and photography:

Some car manufacturers make different model cars, with particular models to address different market segments. Segmentation is not just based on economic levels, but also even based on the personality-types or genders of the customers they hope to win. For the sake of this discussion, I will focus solely on economic considerations.

Marketing people do use various marketing strategies in order to push their products. They may focus on the benefits of special features of their cars, for example, or do brand marketing where the focus is on what the brand represents, or even on the strength of its corporate identity, but at other times, especially when the market is depressed and all other marketing strategies have been exhausted, there may be need to adjust prices, or soften terms.

When they work on pricing, they look at where they are, and which market segment they are targeting. Sometimes, a price adjustment is only in reaction to a competitor’s decision to lower prices, or sometimes, they may initiate the price change. Again, this may not necessarily be an across-the-board decision, and may target only one model.

To go back to the analogy used, Toyota has high-end models that compete with Mercedes Benz and BMW, and if Mercedes Benz and BMW were to lower prices, it would not be to compete against Toyota’s medium level products but against their equivalent high-end cars. I don’t need to go into specific brands, as those who are interested in cars know what they are. But Toyota initially came to the Philippines to bring medium-level cars (although on a limited basis, it does offer super luxury cars), so the corporate image of Toyota has been heretofore identified, in the Philippines and other countries, with middle-level car models. (That will need to change when they aggressively push their high-end models). In the same way, Kia initially came in to cater to the low-end markets. Remember, too, that Volkswagen started as a people’s car, and therefore priced low to live up to the way it was being marketed (it does not cater to the low-end anymore). For that matter, Mercedes Benz brought in Korean-assembled vans to make them more affordable.

Car companies, as with other manufacturers or service companies, will do marketing according to the segments that they want to pursue (BPI and BPI Family for example address different markets), and will use different marketing strategies to reach them, pricing being one of those strategies.

In much the same manner, even in the absence of certifications or accreditations, Philippine photo studios have identified themselves as high end, middle level, or low-end, and possibly branding their photographers so that all these market segments can be reached.

For our own studio, we are presently catering to high end and middle level markets, and offer bi-level pricing to reflect the “brands” of our photographers (two senior photographers, two not-too-senior ones). When we adjust prices, we adjust to compete with photographers in their respective levels. But sometimes, a competitor of our two high-end photographers may offer their services at the same price level as our medium-level photographers, and sometimes even lower. These would be the times when we would offer our not-too-senior ones or turn down the opportunity to serve our client, and express the wish for them to remember us when they have another requirement. Even though we may sometimes lose bids, as long as we are still being asked to bid, that’s good – it means we are still in our clients’ “circle of trust.” Quote from the Ben Stiller movie “Meet the Parents” or a similar title. =)

Even when we lower prices, we need to protect the integrity of our pricing, our photographers and our company – so there is a point for each of our stratified levels below which we cannot go. This may not be issue for a solo photographer, but for a studio like ours with four photographers, different-sized studios and different camera formats, pricing is not one uniform thing.

I hope that beginning photographers, as they get more business from the industry, periodically review where they are, and define the point when they can’t go any lower, without losing their self-respect and their investments. Forget what other photographers call you, or what you call other photographers, or what you call what’s happening in our industry, you need to study your numbers. Even for photographers at the low-end, which is where we started, there is need to study break-even points, so we know whether we are making profits or losing our shirts.

Photographers shoot because they are photographers. Professional photographers shoot to earn profits because they are professional photographers. Let us not confuse the two, even when they reside in one person.

To go back to the analogy used, Toyota has high-end models that compete with Mercedes Benz and BMW, and if Mercedes Benz and BMW were to lower prices, it would not be to compete against Toyota’s medium level products but against their equivalent high-end cars. I don’t need to go into specific brands, as those who are interested in cars know what they are. But Toyota initially came to the Philippines to bring medium-level cars (although on a limited basis, it does offer super luxury cars), so the corporate image of Toyota has been heretofore identified, in the Philippines and other countries, with middle-level car models. (That will need to change when they aggressively push their high-end models). In the same way, Kia initially came in to cater to the low-end markets. Remember, too, that Volkswagen started as a people’s car, and therefore priced low to live up to the way it was being marketed (it does not cater to the low-end anymore). For that matter, Mercedes Benz brought in Korean-assembled vans to make them more affordable.

The analogy I used is based on local market, and Lexus (High End Toyota) is yet to be sold by official dealers here. So lowering of their current price is not against the Lexus but to all cars sold localy, but the analogy is just an analogy, I know it won't happen because its just not possible to sustain the business if they did, but sadly it happens to the Photography industry.


Photographers shoot because they are photographers. Professional photographers shoot to earn profits because they are professional photographers. Let us not confuse the two, even when they reside in one person.

Yes, but they share the same project :)

Harvey I hope you see that my observations are in general and is not studio specific, but since its just the two of us corresponding people may think I am attacking ADPHOTO.

certification/accredition is surely a very good thing. if it will be established, it should be more of like a mark of GOODHOUSE KEEPING OR SEAL OF A GOOD PRODUCT. and not just to go after those perceived 'murderer' of photography industry.

Harvey I hope you see that my observations are in general and is not studio specific, but since its just the two of us corresponding people may think I am attacking ADPHOTO.

Hi Ken,

Oh, I understand that perfectly, and my answers are also in general and not studio specific, except that I can only draw from my own experiences and cannot speak for others. Don't worry - I will be the first to tell everyone that this is just a discussion.

In fact, I see that many young photographers need some business information and advice. For whatever it's worth, I've just decided to start a new blog where I will focus on sharing what I have learned in the last 33 or so years of doing professional photography. :)

Yoohoo! Mel Enriquez! Would you like to do a refresh? :D

Nothing is more upsetting than to compete for a project against a photographer who does it for peanuts, or worse, for free.

But sometimes you gotta bite the bullet if you're starting out; but if you're a professional already, choose another client.

That's the trouble with Digital...suddenly Everybody's a photographer.

There's a lot of money in teaching photography also. Especially since there aren't that many good speakers as they are photographers.

Speaking of which...I gotta sign up for the next photography seminar they're having at The Alcove.

ys... just joined.

Louie... sorry to hear about that experience. You are not alone...

My minimum package in 2000 for weddings was 50K... and that without video coverage. I'm surprised that there are deals made where photo and video coverage cost less than half that.

Professionals include the cost of running the business, maintenance of the equipment, etc. The hobbyist disregards all these because he does it for the love of the craft. It's hard to go against this when cost becomes the deciding factor. Magazines are also there to blame. some magazines pay peanuts because they feel like they're doing you a favor by placing your name in the byline. Now some magazines are making photographers sign agreements that the shots submitted can be ysed for anything they want at a measly price of 2500. What ever happened to the photographers rights? well that's another issue... back to dumping the prices... Are we reaching a point where there is no respect for the photographer and his/her work?

Will certification help? who will police the prices? Will clients decline murderous prices?

Nothing is more upsetting than to compete for a project against a photographer who does it for peanuts, or worse, for free.

But sometimes you gotta bite the bullet if you're starting out; but if you're a professional already, choose another client.

That's the trouble with Digital...suddenly Everybody's a photographer.

Even a photographer who is just starting out can earn more than "peanuts, or worse, for free," but he must learn HOW to negotiate for better terms or prices for his work.

I don't think he/she will last in this business that long. That photographer will get what he deserves......

maybe the photographer they hired is just probably doing it as an experience rather than to make an income.
I hate it when this happens...some companies just wait for OJTs because they work hard and cheap or worse (which is 90% of the time), free! My other work as a freelance webdesigner is facing this exact same dilemma.

Eventually if they keep doing this kind of pricing for photography, everyone in the business will have to suffer for it. For how long can this person support his career as serious photographer when equipment, travel and time alone cost a lot?

last month i was asked by a big company to cover a 2 day sporting event. i gave him my quote of five figures, he quipped (translated to tagalog) "ang mahal naman, yung isang nagquote 3k lang for two whole days."

I told them respectfully that the price is way too cheap for any decent photographer and if they decide to hire a better photographer they can get back to me.

Hmmm.... the year is ending and a new year about to begin and unfortunately I find myself extremely upset and frustrated that I have to rant about this. Last night a particular client who I had photographed before is expanding since business is doing good. So they met with me to discuss a shoot for next Saturday and discuss costs, etc. Wow, they have a lot planned - multiple layouts for billboard and van posters, print ads, calendars, etc. By industry standards, even at the most modest of rates, this would easily price tens of thousands. Suddenly, I was just informed by the client that they got another photographer who is charging P2,500 for the entire project!!!!!!! I have to cry MURDER! That's a merciless stab at the photography industry!
patay nga ang budget

Hmmm.... the year is ending and a new year about to begin and unfortunately I find myself extremely upset and frustrated that I have to rant about this. Last night a particular client who I had photographed before is expanding since business is doing good. So they met with me to discuss a shoot for next Saturday and discuss costs, etc. Wow, they have a lot planned - multiple layouts for billboard and van posters, print ads, calendars, etc. By industry standards, even at the most modest of rates, this would easily price tens of thousands. Suddenly, I was just informed by the client that they got another photographer who is charging P2,500 for the entire project!!!!!!! I have to cry MURDER! That's a merciless stab at the photography industry!


thats life...

good word of mouth will keep the reliable (and *good*) photographers afloat.

people who shoot for free won't be able to keep up shooting for free. how many times can they shoot that way? 5 times? then they'd want to charge na or go back to their day jobs. (like me!)

people who shoot for peanuts, fine. let them, but if they do want to bag bigger and better projects, they know they'll have to invest in better gear. This will require moolah, and they won't have any choice but to charge higher rates.

like they always say: "it's the economy, stupid"

things will smoothen out eventually.

yes, i think with the advent of digital photography barriers to entry for new players have become very low.

am just a hobbyist and i don't have to earn my keep from photography. mahirap nga maisip what will happen to people who rely on photography to put food on the table. it has happened to other businesses, litson manok, sari sari stores. eventually yung mga hindi kumikita will have to close shop.

just keep in mind that the very purpose of protographers charging fees is to MAKE money. if the new entrant believes that the way for him/her to get projects is to charge less then wala tayo magagawa. kz if we take the frame of mind of the new player, sasabihin nya pag mataas rate ko then why would clients come to me if for the same price they can go for Mr. xxx? so we can't fault them if they want to charge less in order to get projects. some will close shop, some will make money and eventually grow bigger and realize the business of photography.

unfortunately, its a phase this industry has to go thru and the people who will survive this will be stronger, better (what doesn't kill you will make you stronger). sabi ng mga economist, the market has to consolidate (matira ang matibay)

for companies who use their own people to take pictures or get an OJT to do it, they believe that by doing it this way they can save money, we can't fault them. if their quality of print ads/marketing materials decline, its their product which will suffer in the end anyway.

there will always be a) photographers who charge a high rate but still clients line up to get them, b) new photographers who charge cut throat rates to get projects c) companies that will do the shoots in house. its up to each one of them to try to innovate to stay alive.

my point is that we can't fault anybody with this situation. cause they are all after the same goal, to make MONEY, and they believe that by doing what they do they are working towards it.

p.s. with the growing interest in digital photography some of the established photographers get extra income by holding workshops, they embrace the trend and try to earn some money from the current situation.

my point is that we can't fault anybody with this situation. cause they are all after the same goal, to make MONEY, and they believe that by doing what they do they are working towards it.

I agree. It's up to the experienced to distant themselves further from the new players.

Come to think of it. Some studio owners are up in arms when it comes to low-budget competition with their competitors but a deep search on them is that they are the ones who do the low pay tactics - paying the people they hire for a measly cost of P750.00 per photographer/videographer

I agree. It's up to the experienced to distant themselves further from the new players.

I agree. Experienced photographers should show the difference between their works and those of new players. If there is no difference, why should clients pay more just because they are older. Whoever is selling for the more experienced photographers should be able to show the benefits that their clients can get from working with them instead of with the new players who may not have their experience, expertise, equipment, facilities, service etc. But it is not enough to point these out - it is not a bragging game - instead, they should be presented as benefits or values to clients. Then clients can choose to pay more to get more, or to pay less to get less.

Our clients pay us more than they would a young, inexperienced photographer because we can do the work faster and better. We save them a lot of (their) executive time, and that is worth a lot to them. There's a lot of time and other expenses saved because our works are "ready to go" and do not have to undergo hours of photoshop editing. They have confidence in us - they can even just send us the products and they know we know their expectations and can deliver them. Again, we save them a lot of executive time and aggravation. How much would a client be willing to pay for peace of mind?

In the light of rampant price-based competition, I always challenge our photographers to prove that they are better. If they are not, then we have no right charging more than other photographers. Conversely, if the new photographers are better - that's possible - then they should value their work and themselves and charge what their works are worth.

I agree. Experienced photographers should show the difference between their works and those of new players. If there is no difference, why should clients pay more just because they are older. Whoever is selling for the more experienced photographers should be able to show the benefits that their clients can get from working with them instead of with the new players who may not have their experience, expertise, equipment, facilities, service etc. But it is not enough to point these out - it is not a bragging game - instead, they should be presented as benefits or values to clients. Then clients can choose to pay more to get more, or to pay less to get less.

Our clients pay us more than they would a young, inexperienced photographer because we can do the work faster and better. We save them a lot of (their) executive time, and that is worth a lot to them. There's a lot of time and other expenses saved because our works are "ready to go" and do not have to undergo hours of photoshop editing. They have confidence in us - they can even just send us the products and they know we know their expectations and can deliver them. Again, we save them a lot of executive time and aggravation. How much would a client be willing to pay for peace of mind?

In the light of rampant price-based competition, I always challenge our photographers to prove that they are better. If they are not, then we have no right charging more than other photographers. Conversely, if the new photographers are better - that's possible - then they should value their work and themselves and charge what their works are worth.

Well, finally......

I think Harvey_Chua's post sums it all up.

can we say that the situation now of the photography industry in the philippines is closed to or in - 'SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST' , 'DOGS EAT DOGS' stage?

sorry to say but that seems to be the case not only in the photography industry but to many other industries here in the philippines.

i guess harvey_chua's advice should be heeded.

i agree with rudy that photography is not the only industry affected by this kind of trend where value (as percieved by public) is mainly based on price. as if price has no bearing on quality or service.

as an IT professional, i've witnessed the same thing over the years. the influx of IT people from all over the world, especially in asia has caused a deminishing value for it's actual contribution in the business world. a lot of great programmers aren't getting the same pay like they used to-because a lot of businesses think they can get the same thing done in india or philippines for about half of what it'll cost them in north america or even europe.

i am a serious hobbyist. i am very passionate about photography. i can see myself doing it all throughout my life. i have ran a very successful business career. the last thing i'd want is to run this industry to the ground. i'd like to keep it as a viable means of earning a living. so, every now and then i am asked to do a 'gig', i always refer to how much professional photographers charge and weigh out my expenses. my rate would turn out to be as much as those doing this professionally. but guess what? i find that clients don't even question my abilities. as long as they're happy with the images i give 'em.

canon, nikon & others continue to improve on their pricing schemes. BUT they have a uniform price structure regardless if the camera is being shipped to a poor or fully developed country like the US. so next time some of us think it's okay for us to give ourselves away to a client, just think: if you PAID the SAME amount for your gear as the pro's did, why should you get less money for your service? hopefully, if you really have to, adjust accordingly.

just my 2cents!
~rey

can we say that the situation now of the photography industry in the philippines is closed to or in - 'SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST' , 'DOGS EAT DOGS' stage?

sorry to say but that seems to be the case not only in the photography industry but to many other industries here in the philippines.

i guess harvey_chua's advice should be heeded.

First of all, there is a basic misleading idea in the first place is that the "photographic industry" is homogenous and operates the same regardless if you are in fashion or glamour photography, or in food or in product photography, or in events or weddings, etc. etc.

Well it isn't. The rules of the game, the pricing, the marketing, the deliverables, the service, the equipment are all different depending on w/c segment you are operating. Even within the same segment, there are niches or subgroups and even there the rules are different.

No, I disagree, the photographic industry is not dying. Or being murdered. In fact, it is booming. If anybody is dying, it is likely the entrenched players who don't know how to adjust to the new realities of the new entrants. What digital has done is lowered the barriers to entry, and it has allowed many to experience the joys of photography and learn quickly, and to be creative. It is inevitable that there will be those who are talented and those who have business sense who will enter the market.

I disagree that the industry is being murdered. Maybe in your segment it is. Maybe in the advertising or glamour or publishing segment it is. But in the events business where I am, it isn't. Well, the low end is being shaken and shaken badly. But this isn't new. Especially in the low end. Even the mid end is being shaken. But again, this is nothing new.

No, it is not a dog-eat-dog situation. In fact, in some segments, it has been a dog-eat-dog for the past 40 years. In the low end segment of the wedding, this is particularly so. It's always been the survival of the fittest. The question now for some is - Are you still "fit?"

Today, I met an old veteran of the low ender who has been at it for 20-25 years. He is still there surviving. I asked him if business is ok. He said, yes. He said, he is doing some mid-end and this has made things even even if he has lost some low enders. It's a bit cuthroat at the low end of events due to the switching of many to dslrs. He still has his d70 and basic lens. He also got a d40 lately. But he has loyal customers, and he has new mid-end customers. He is very good with customers. He knows how to bend backwards without breaking his own back:D. He is a good businessman.

He also said, he has dropped his video editing business. I remember him cutting (editing) for low ender videographers for P500 per wedding/event. He usually gets 20-30 edits a month. His been at that for 2 years and now he closed it to consolidate his position and profits. Now he only edits for his own projects.

My other friends who are mid-enders are doing well too. This inspite of the influx. In fact, I was talking to one this afternoon, and he said, he is upping his package from P25k to 40K. Guess who he is going to ask to shoot the video? :Grin:

Me? My photography is not as active, for the past 2 years, except last Dec up to the present where it was revitalized. It's because I've been concentrating on video for the past 2 years. And when I finally got the handle of it, that's the time I resumed my photography (and with a vengeance!). These past 5 months, I have more photo projects than video. But, now my video has taken a turn. I am now slowly getting offshore edits from abroad. And it pays much, much more and I don't even have to work 11-12 hours for an event. I stay at home and edit and send the output by courier or mail. No video cameras to wear, not accidents or a thousand things that can go wrong if I shoot it myself.

And what about the high end wedding/events shooters? Go ask them. But I'm sure, they're not bothered, either. Go ahead, you now their names in these fora. Ask them. If they are being murdered as well, then they are surely not made of good business stuff, it they don't know how to adjust.

So, who's industry is being murdered?

I can only speak from our side of the fence. And I can't even speak in complete authority. But you can always ask those Quiapo hangouts and those others and see how their side of the fence is doing. I don't see any of them complaining. Heck, the rise of many digital labs is already an indicator that you have all these photographers who need a lab for their prints. The old labs aren't profitable anymore. Henry's sold their analogue photo processing lab months back. Everybody is adjusting and changing to the new reallities of the game.

I'd say, it's you who is being murdered if you do not adjust. I'm not saying photographers shouldn't unite from onerous companies, but you see, some of us deal more with individuals rather than corporations. And the rules of the games here are different. Our products are not studio shots or a perfume or requiring a set controlled environment. Our deliverables are different. The expectations are different. It's even different even from our own part depending on which target market we are hitting.

In our world of events, everyone have their part. Even the low enders. I mean, is the OP going to shoot a wedding for P3,000 for 50 4R prints and an 8x10 and the cd-r to give? Who among you who charge P20k or P50k is willing to go to my home province in Sorsogon and charge a mere P3k or 7K for a photo-video? Want to do a video in a province in Mindanao for P1,500? Anyone?

So, the "photographic industry" is diverse. And I say, again, who is being murdered here?

Am I depriving some american video editor in the USA if I charge U$200-500 to edit a complete wedding here in the RP? So, am I a murderer now of some poor American for taking away his livelihood? Can I help it if his rate is P30-50 per hour and we all know it requires about 40-50 man-hours to edit a good wedding video for the mid-to-high segment. You do the math and if I charge U$300, that' cheap. BTW, I received my first U$ paycheck last week :D. It's a start!

Now, take that analogy to your own segment. A guy will cover the event P3k for a 2 day shoot. Well, let him! You know how good you are, right? I'll only worry about him if he can survive on that and yet deliver the same quality I do. And if he still around in 6 months charging the same rate, then I'd start worrying!:(

Here's a possible reality check for some of you. If more and more people can deliver that quality of work for such a low price, then maybe your own standard hasn't been high. Or maybe the barrier to a once high standard is no longer that high. It may have been breeched. Maybe you've been sitting pretty on your behind and failed to see the time's they are a-changin'.

What are you going to do now? Ask congress to make a law "professionalizing" photography? Cry foul? Say the new entrants aren't playing fair? Cry murder?

But who is going to go to Sosogon to shoot a wedding for P2,000? Are you? Wanna go to Basilan, open a shop there, and do it for P1,000? Or you going to insist on a P25-50k wedding package?

Even in Metro Manila, you want to shoot a wedding for P3,000? There's always a market for it. After all, not everybody is rich and can afford a P50k package. Who is going to service these folks who want to be happy and have memories of their special day? Are these P2k-3k photographers "murdering the photograpy industry?" Which industry is that?

There's always been business at least in our segment or part of photography. There's always this turmoil and earthquakes. Is it dog-eat-dog? Well, yes, in some parts. It's always have been. In some, it's been civil. Are you aware of this? It's been so for decades in the events industry! You want to shoot in Fernwood? Ha! Go ahead, make my day! Is that a fair way of doing business?

I'll say this much. If you know you are good; And you have a basic business smarts like my low ender friend; you will adapt, you will survive. He doesn't complain of the new entrants. The buck is as low as it can be from where he is. So, for him, he has seen this thing come and go for such a long time. The world is not collapsing. Nobody is being murdered unless he allows himself to be murdered. he will adjust, he will change, and he will survive. And unless God taps him on the shoulder for the final time, he will still be around another 20 years.

And that's just all I have to say about that....

And that's just all I have to say about that....

That's all?

That's all?

:Grin:He he he. I just thought of writing that having thought of Forrest Gump when he was speaking in a Vietnam War Protest Rally in Washington. :Grin:

The same trend is being experienced here in the states, especially among wedding photographers. It seems as of late, all the WPPI (Wedding & Portrait Photographers International) conventions have been about how to compete against what they call "shoot and burn" photographers, ones who shoot then burn the imags into cd's then hand them to the client.

These are also people who seem to have little or no operating costs or are doing it in their spare time.

The people most affected by this are the low to medium-end market photographers. The question has always been how can one compete with a person who charges so little since he/she has little overhead.

Distancing oneself is a bit of a challenge since the market is being saturated by these people. Many people have professed their solution "own" solution, but it's been a general consensus that the industry will be facing tough times.

Reading about the above posts though, I feel like wedding photographers here are a bit spoiled. Low-end photographers here are in the $1,000-$4,000 range, while the largest market, the middle-range photographers charge $4,000-$8,000. Most of them work by themselves or at the most with one other assistant or second shooter.

The same trend is being experienced here in the states, especially among wedding photographers. It seems as of late, all the WPPI (Wedding & Portrait Photographers International) conventions have been about how to compete against what they call "shoot and burn" photographers, ones who shoot then burn the imags into cd's then hand them to the client.

These are also people who seem to have little or no operating costs or are doing it in their spare time.

The people most affected by this are the low to medium-end market photographers. The question has always been how can one compete with a person who charges so little since he/she has little overhead.

Distancing oneself is a bit of a challenge since the market is being saturated by these people. Many people have professed their solution "own" solution, but it's been a general consensus that the industry will be facing tough times.

Reading about the above posts though, I feel like wedding photographers here are a bit spoiled. Low-end photographers here are in the $1,000-$4,000 range, while the largest market, the middle-range photographers charge $4,000-$8,000. Most of them work by themselves or at the most with one other assistant or second shooter.

This has happened before. Nothing new as some old timers told me. I say, just weather it out a year or two and the market will stabilize by tiself. Maybe 70-80% of those shoot and run wedding shooters will die out simply because the model is not sustainable. Those that will remain are those who are commited anyway, and who's issue is survival, not just a hobby.

But mid and high enders are not that affected. I have a low to mid former client, turned contractor who passes to me some of her mid end client because they've closed their mid tier services. They get a decent profit as they front for my work, my people get the training and the pay, everybody gets ahead and are happy. They have moved to the low end (flm even as there are still holdouts there, and they have a 2 film labs. They are in the province). But what she said, was that the mid end is picking up. But they are not ready to service this segment because, even if they have been in the business for over 20 years, they do not know how the digital world operates and the requirements for a mid to high shoot entails. I offered to train them, but they said, they'd just let my team do it, and they'll just offer the ancillary services like banners, sign books, layout and digital album (her daughter is a graduate of fine arts). They would rely on our shoot materials (photo) and our video would be from shoot to the final dvd output. They'd continue with their low end operations, but the middle and digital market in the province is also growing (at least in some parts of Bulacan).

What this indicates is that there is some adjustments going on in our side of the industry. Very healthy if you ask me. What is shows also is that having 20 or more years of experience does not guarantee contnuance. They have to adjust. That old man I mentioned who is an low ender, moved half of his operation in the low-middle market. This one from Bulacan, decide to quit it, do subcontracting for the mid end, but handled other aspects of the value chain.

Digital photography has created other sub industries. One of them is digital layouting, banners, streamers, sign books, etc. etc. This lady businessman from Bulacan exited the mid, let us handle that, but refocussed on the other ancilliary industry, w/c some I don't do.

The key thing here is adjustment. Adaptation. I maintain that the industry is not being murdered. Most likely it's just you. Or me. The cuthroat entrants cannot survive for so long because the model is't really sustainable in the long end. I'd see a 80-90% attrition rate in the long run. It's just the rush of the low priced dslrs. They'd kill each other in the end because everybody is doing the same thing and the market is going to saturate. Only the fittest and most dedicated will survive. So, it is really tough and to an extent your competitor is really out to murder you.

But that doesn't have to be so. Just make the adjustments. Adapatation. Do a SWOT analysis and find your place in the sun.


No, wedding photographers here are not spoiled. On the contrary, it's a healthy mix, regardless of target market. The only difference is that in the low end (P2,000-3,000), it can be a bit catty or competitive because it's who gives the lowest price that gets the job. But as I said, it will all stabilize in time, and the mid and high enders are usually not affected. In our case, we are even upping our price because now the market can bear our prices. Econmomy is doing good, and the 25year olders getting married have a different mind set of what is "value" or quality for a price. Mind you, most of us don't even put those extras such as pre-nup shots, photomontages, etc in the package.

If my friend's case in the USA suggests, there are U$300-500 weekend photo shooters there. This is why he is not entering it now. He is doing video and he just offloads the editing to me. I just finished one of his gigs there and am sending it to him this pm. He finds it easier to get video jobs. You know what he said? He said, that the price of dslrs are so low, that everyone in an event has one, or at least a P&S, so, most don't hire photographers anymore. But those doing video, yes.

He charges about U$300-500, I believe for his stuff. I get to edit it, and get U$100 or more, depending. I can't charge him much because he is starting. But really, the edits are easy, and the money is good. In a month's time, I have done 2 already and by end of this month will receive his 3rd footage. We are cooperating with each other, thousands of miles away so that he will be able to enter the U$1,000 bracket in his first year as a videographer.

Strange because he loved photography. His father was a photographer here in the RP. He was a respected photogrpher here in his area and segmetn. But he has to adjust. And good thing he is getting to like video. :) video is nice if you handle it properly, if you edit it properly.

Even in that industry, I know of some who have exited video over here (low enders) and just did a computer rental/internet thingy; and I know of a husband and wife team now who are swamped with photo-video coverage now in the low end.

Really, there is a reason and a way to survive. You just have to find it and do it. It's not the end of the world.

[QUOTE=
The key thing here is adjustment. Adaptation. .[/QUOTE]

Yes, it is. To paraphrase Darwin - it's not the strongest or the most intelligent who will survive, but he who can adapt to the changes.

Back in the 90’s, a group of advertising photographers made a move to establish standard rates for advertising photography. Sadly that move, and some other reasons, practically broke up the group. Some did not want to set minimum rates because clients might peg us to those minimum rates. Some did not want to set maximum rates because even those may not be high enough for more demanding projects.

We also recognized that we represented different expertise, different levels of success in marketing ourselves to clients, and offered different facilities and value-added services. Pricing also had to consider to whom we were selling our services – as rates would be different for a start-up company or a multinational corporation.

There was a time when we considered charging a photographer’s fee and charging separately for other expenses - films and processing (which now would be digital processing, editing, downloading or uploading, archiving, etc.), use of studio, use of other facilities (make up room, kitchen), catering, delivery/courier etc. Although we were designing the photographer’s fee to be variable, clients misunderstood it to be a fixed fee (day rate), so we went back to the drawing board.

Even though we were a small group – about 30 - we were a fragmented and disparate group. We could not even agree on basic things like – how many transparencies (now with digital, how many images), do we submit per set up? Some selected a certain number to submit, some gave everything - outtakes and all. Some surrendered negatives, just as some photographers now submit raw files, some held on to them. Some photographers defined the set ups and charged for variations, again defining what would be considered variations. Some did not, and just charge a fixed day rate. Some charged extra for films and processing, and others gave a day rate that included everything.

Maybe the difficulty, then and now, stems from the fact that we do advertising photography. Unlike school, portrait and wedding photographers who design their own packages, we do customized work. Our advertising clients dictate what we need to shoot – and those could be any of thousands of different set ups. If we set up prices for product shots, would we have one common rate for product shots? But products could mean food or beverage, cans or cars, diapers or jewelry, tubes, boxes, sachets, etc. Surely, we could not enumerate all of them. And what about when clients add other elements to the set up – people or additional products? The possible combinations are infinite. How much would we charge for working with certain clients or art directors, since they can often dictate how fast or efficiently we worked? Would we charge the same no matter where the materials are used, or do we define usage?

In short, there are many variables to consider, and pricing itself is an art and a science.

This is 2007 - is this the year when photographers finally get together to draft something that would unite them? Let us, for now, set aside those issues that lead us to disagree. Let us start with the most basic things that we can agree on. Let’s agree to agree.

nice one harvey...survival, staying in the game is an artform in itself...

Wow, first time I chanced upon this thread. A lot of interesting and sensible ideas have been thrown around. If I may, I'll put my own 2 cents regarding this.

For one, it's true that technology has very much lowered the cost of entry with regards to photography. What I paid for my 300D years back is even a bit higher than what I paid for my K10D, a much more capable camera. And the D40, also a capable camera for most user's needs, now checks in at around 27K or less.

But there still are barriers to entry, one of which is personal confidence. I may have a good camera (one that clients would respect, at least, in terms of looks), but I myself am not confident of my own skills to start becoming a weekend shooter.

Perhaps the 2500-peso guy feels confident in his own skills, only that he doesn't have the necessary clout/experience to charge much higher. Skill/vision will ultimately come into fore, and if he's not good enough (at least, not 2500-pesos good enough), he'll find himself out of the industry in no time.

Then again, he may really have the talent to pull it off. We live in a much poorer economy than other countries where they have photographers' associations. Know that there will be those who simply need the money, much more so than established photographers. I know. I've had friends in college who moonlighted in event coverage just to be able to continue funding their education (taking up filmmaking as a course does incur considerable expenses). And I know first-hand that these people have legitimate skills.

It's interesting how some people here have quickly assumed that the 2500-peso-guy has no discernible talent and will get into deep trouble. It's also amusing how some even refused to call the person a photographer just because he charges obscenely low prices and there's an assumed lack of skills on his part.

Personally, I feel that some people here have elitist tendencies, that professional photography itself should only be accessible to them who have gone through the glory days of film. Some even thought of mandating that pro photographers should join the proposed photographers' association and failure to do so should be punishable by law. While I'm all for the creation of a pro association, I think some people are being too defensive, trying to limit the market and making it inaccessible to others who may be just as good, if not better, than they are.

I'm a regular at a number of forums, and I've seen enough to know that there are hobbyists who are just as good as professionals, and some are even better.

With that out of the way, I do understand the concerns of those who do make photography as their sole mean to make ends meet. And I do know the difference between a start-up and one who has been in the field for a long time. Certainly, on my wedding day, I would look to hire an experienced photographer with a great folio.

But that's me. I know and understand the value of great photography (that's why I still haven't tried pro photography). Other people don't. They look at the bottom line and are willing to compromise on quality if that saves them a ton of money. I've seen numerous print ads that probably have been shot in-house, if I'd go with the images they put out.

So as some people pointed out, there are numerous market segments still. Don't bother chasing customers who are willing to sacrifice quality. You're a respected photographer, so you're better off finding clients who appreciate the extras you give them, as well as great images.

I have faith in your craft guys. Don't be worried. You know you can hold your own. :)

:Shock:this is outrageous... and unacceptable...

photography is not just work... it is a craft... an art...

i am very frustrated and dissappointed on people who downgrade our art by simply diving their prices just to get some work... without thinking on the adverse effect of what they have done... this is killing our industry... :(

this is what you call a suicide attempt...

just to earn extra cash, they're willing to cut the deal in to bits... :Angry::Mad:

:Shock:this is outrageous... and unacceptable...

photography is not just work... it is a craft... an art...

i am very frustrated and dissappointed on people who downgrade our art by simply diving their prices just to get some work... without thinking on the adverse effect of what they have done... this is killing our industry... :(

this is what you call a suicide attempt...

just to earn extra cash, they're willing to cut the deal in to bits... :Angry::Mad:

Not all photography is art or craft. Some things are simply photography. For example, when we were just starting in the early 70's, we would take id photos of employees of Apex Motors, and would be asked to take pictures of cars involved in accidents for insurance claims purposes. We did those and charged P15 per car. All we had was a second hand Nikkormat with a 43-86 zoom lens. We had no lights.

But we evolved, our skills, equipment and facilities improved, and now we shoot beauty shots of cars for advertising and marketing. Now, maybe we can claim that our photography is an art and a craft.

Price differentiations exist, and death can come to any business whether you're at the bottom or at the top - in the same way that death can come to anyone, no matter what their economic or social status.

Let us be aware of competitors but let us not focus on them or blame them for what is happening in our industry. Instead, let us focus on ourselves and how we can improve our craft, our art, our photography, our vision, our industry. Maybe we can reach out to those "murdering the photography industry" and help them move up. As they get better, acquire better skills, better equipment and facilities, they would also have to adjust their pricing to reflect the changes. Let us share business knowledge with them, so they can understand pricing better. We are all interconnected somehow, so if we don't reach out to each other, we will all sink.

We are all interconnected somehow, so if we don't reach out to each other, we will all sink.

this is nice :).. just remembered something about economics, the way how competition helps your business.. without competition, others would not improve their craft and skills, they will be satisfied with their current state.. but with competition. we push each others limit to make an output better, the result better, to make our services better..

a thought on how people regard output of a professional....

again... this is me thinking out loud.

people might be thinking... what this much thousands of pesos for just taking pictures when i can do it myself!!! it is sometimes very hard to put a price tag on a service that we do. and it is even harder for the clients to understand why we are charging 15000 for a 6 hour work, for example.

i together with another doctor did an appecdectomy to remove an infected appendix of the patient. because of the easy anatomy of the patient, together with his thin abdominal fat, and maybe, divine providence, we were able to take out the appendix in 15 minutes.

when it is time for the patient to pay the professional fee, they were asking why we had to charge 15000 for a 15 minute operation. that is 1000 a minute they said.

i forgot already how i answered that inquiry. however, i was thinking, the 15000 pesos should not be broken down to the 15 minutes. it should be divided by 15 years -- the amount of time one has to spend training and studying in order to be competent enough to operate very fast, resulting to lower amount of blood loss and a lower amount of time the patient will spend under anesthesia, which is beneficial to the patient since a longer anesthesia time is associated to a number of complications.

so broken down, it is 15000 divided by 15 years is 1000 pesos per year... A BARGAIN.

sorry for the analogy some may consider not applicable.

but photographers, IMHO, should learn to value themselves not just based on the number of raw or jpeg files we are giving clients, not just the amount of time, the number of lay-outs that we will do.

we are a lot more than just assembly line workers.

how long and what kind of investment have you given to the craft? in terms of time? money? late night work? time away from family?

what is the output?

again this is just my humble opinion stated in raw since i am just thinking out loud.

You just made me realize I should be charging @ least P3.500 coz that's what I paid for my basic photography worskhop! Will definitely UP my TF!

Christian,

Your examples are true and are correct. No different from photography, except, with digital photography, the learning curve has been cut by years. The LCD and instant feedback, is probably the single thing that has allowed amateurs and wannabees to improve dramatically. Not to mention that you don't spend money on film, developing, and printing just to do some test shots.

In medicine, I saw on tv, there are dummy cadavers that you can cut up that has the same feel, response as the real thing. Well, not really 100 percent, but if we have this technology, then the learning curve in the field is lessened greatly.

I also saw on tv about a week ago, some dummy but this time, it's a dummy to help one deliver babies.

what these things do is cut down on the learning curve or accumulating of experince. Couple this with the Internet and online consultation and exhanging of images, then you learn faster and even better in some instances.

Of course, there is still a need to do it "live" or real time. But because of these technologies, the avg Jose has cut down the steep learning curve so that when one finally does go to an apprenticeship or Internship, most of the rough edges are gone and what you learn are contextual situations w/c require adjustments to your basic know-how. You can shoot wth your digicam for a year but only in the field in an actual wedding, for example, will you get the experience that technology can no longer answer. Unusual Mixed lighting, a grouchy bride, tense mother, etc. These are the things, that a doctor or photographer cannot replicate with simulations, dummies, or practicing with your dslrs. In the end, there will still be a need for apprenticeship of some sort, or OJT. But at least, the basics are now solid. Thanks to techonology.

That is what digital did, hence the predicament of Louie. This is why barriers to entry has been lowered dramatically.

Its the same thing I have in mind...This LCD made Photography a lot easier.

Allow me to share my story on how I became a photographer. I am Veterinary medicine graduate who didn't got lucky in passing the boards. Eventually I got tired of tryin to get that PRC license. I then went to livestock business for 4 years.
In between those four years, I would attend parties and events. Some friends would ask me to take their pixs using their P&S cams. Sooner they would say "I like the way you take pictures." At first I was reluctant to recognize it, thinking I don't have the photographic eye, which is the pre-requisite during the film days. Things got even bigger the number of people saying I take good pixs from 1 person to 5 pips...Thats when I decided I would get a cam.

I have to save for 7 months just to get my D3000, with my own money. My mom always tell me this "since your wasting your time on something,why not try to earn from it." and thats how I got started.

Reading all of the post here, Its seems that leverage is what is needed. I agree with one post here, gone are the mid-level photogs or they became few. I guess with so many photogs offering workshops, Specially FPPF and PCCI The newbies seems to be climbing up the ladder so fast, considering the number of students that enroll. Thus it threatening those in the pro division.

In fact a couple of newbies are asking for a workshop from me. I am hesitant to give one, thinking if I teach this guy,he might get better than me. But the monetary reward is enticing...So I guess a little selfishness will do, since the LCD and instant feedback made things easier...



Just my vetsingco sentimo

finally able to get this far =) quite an interesting and informative thread, guess ist all about change and how are we going to adapt to it.

now I wonder what happened to the guy who charged 2500 =)