dear mods recently ive been noticing this trend,while other members contribute work in the portraiture they ended up being copied - to the extreme ,lighting,processing,posing and sometimes they would even try to get the same model.would there be a way to discourage this.:(

Personally, if the model doesn't have an exclusive contract with a photographer/studio, there's nothing illegal if others obtain the same model for a shoot. Even in magazines, we see same derivatives in output from the same model.

I'm pretty sure that bulk of what we perceive as personal style is actually a derivative of other people's collective style as well, only with time can we develop our very own and veer away from replicating other people's work, which I don't think is illegal or immoral if we're still learning the craft of trying to find a niche.

Styling is subjective, and it's unrealistic to claim a style to be exclusive to one person unless extensive work (especially commercial) has been published and generally accepted to be a particular artist's style.

For example, if someone shot and sold a photograph of the half-dome of Yosemite successfully, I don't think Ansel Adams can take claim that others can't profit from Yosemite since that park is well known to be his realm of expertise.

There's a difference between duplication and emulation/imitation/derivative, and I believe in either case, it's a testimony that your work is considered impressive enough to be replicated and it should also be a sign to keep evolving and pushing yourself beyond your comfort zone.

This is a good take (http://www.hightowercomics.com/blog/37-news/123-imitation-vs-emulation) on the subject, so is this (http://www.ourcivilisation.com/smartboard/shop/batewj/class.htm).

I am not a moderator, but I think it will be difficult because they like it too much so they try to copy it. It's like a masterpiece that some want to copy. I was in makati art gallery one time and I notice some painters sits there and copy some paintings and it looks like the real thing. So bottom it'll be difficult to control these. I don't know what others point of view about this issue...

Plagiarism, , is the "use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own original work."-- the legal term of this situation.

Plagiarism is easier to quantify with textual or objective representation such as words or notes, not in photographs. Thoughts are hard to quantify, and we see lawsuits dealing with this day in and day out with unclear resolution as interpretation of it is subjective and not objective.

I believe we have a thread about this but dealing with more established commercial photographers in the past, let me try to dig it up.

I agree with Genald in some sort... exactly copying what they saw is not something they put out on public for display, I do that sometimes but I keep it to myself as I want to learn the technique and how to properly execute it (and maybe use that same technique in another occasion)

There's really nothing wrong with copying purely to learn, as David said we all are inspired by the works of our idolized artists.

I think it's ok as long as they credit the original photographer back as an inspiration. But I do agree that if they copy a style and pass it off as their own original style, then there's definitely something wrong there. Nevertheless, David is right... it's hard to strictly qualify if one is his own original work that's been copied since all our original work must indeed be a derivative of some other inspiration we've seen before. As I used to say back in my days of web design, "we don't copy, we improvise" :)

Danny: You're getting quite a bit of followers yourself :)

Here's the thread I'm referring to: http://www.digitalphotographer.com.ph/forum/showthread.php?t=4327

FranicsM had a very good point

http://www.digitalphotographer.com.ph/forum/showpost.php?p=122398&postcount=10

Plagiarism is easier to quantify with textual or objective representation such as words or notes, not in photographs. Thoughts are hard to quantify, and we see lawsuits dealing with this day in and day out with unclear resolution as interpretation of it is subjective and not objective.

I believe we have a thread about this but dealing with more established commercial photographers in the past, let me try to dig it up.

actually were not just talking about big photog here and printed works.amateur and hobbyist do great work as well and they ended up being copied.i still think we should discourage this trend.there are obvious cases here being posted then after a few weeks or even days they would come up w the same thing!its a shame while these guys put effort on thier skill and squeeze thier creative juices others just sit there wait to replicate and copy.:Scared:

FranicsM had a very good point

http://www.digitalphotographer.com.ph/forum/showpost.php?p=122398&postcount=10

with this i totally agree!!

i got to read this article, maybe this would help.

http://www.danheller.com/model-release-copyrights.html

this explains a lot in terms of violating a copyright.

i still think we should discourage this trend.

Can you suggest how to do this objectively and have you approached the photographer who you think is crossing the line personally? I think issues like this should be handled privately and directly between parties beforehand.

IMO...

Nothing in this world is 100% original... with the billions of people inhabiting our planet... our thoughts and ideas are just iterations of the past and present.

Also, reverse engineering something is nothing new... and this is not just limited to something as minute as photography. Heck, industries have been reverse engineered and have altered the course of entire nations.

Still, the first mover will always have a distinct advantage and will always be one step ahead of the copier. The problem with that though is when we spend more time worrying about the copier than maintaining the said advantage.

Can you suggest how to do this objectively and have you approached the photographer who you think is crossing the line personally? I think issues like this should be handled privately and directly between parties beforehand.

its happening here thats why i came to this forum.dave to be honest i have no idea how to do that,but this is a start instead of closing one eye.:Grin:

You must be very good then since "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery".

I suggest that instead of wasting your energy here, put your talents in expanding yourself, push the envelop, thats how artistic field is, people imitate as they learn then find their own niche.

I agree with the late Francis M. nothing is original now, it just evolves.

I once took a couple of classes in basic sketching and drawing. Some of our assignments involved copying existing well-known works of art. We were asked to do this in order to understand the techniques involved in creating a certain sketch.

It's the same thing in photography. My former boss once asked me to copy his style of portraiture as part of my training. He even set a deadline for my submission of the final print. I did it so well that he thought I had missed my deadline. My submission had been on his desk for a week. He thought that it was one of his original photos.

Ideally, we first copy/emulate to learn. Afterwards, (hopefully) we get our bearing as to who we want to be as a photographer and what statements we wish to convey with our photographs.

I've judged the photo contests of several photography clubs. I've noticed that some image submissions tend to look the same (i.e. same subject matter, same cropping, same composition, same lighting, same post processing effects, etc.). Very few images then stand out as unique because of their emulating a single style.

We copy or emulate to learn. But it's only after we modify a certain style or technique according to our personal choice do we grow as a photographer.

Cheers!

Jo Avila

P.S.

(Sadly, some photographers don't seem to get past the emulation stage.)

...I suggest that instead of wasting your energy here, put your talents in expanding yourself, push the envelop, thats how artistic field is, people imitate as they learn then find their own niche....



Good point... but if one insists on his images not being copied, don't post it in a public forum.

This couldn't have been said any better. I have to quote him:

Nothing is original for now. The whole "art" scene is an orgy of plagiarism. It just has to be dealt with honesty. If you pay homage to an artist and say his work influenced you, then that is respect. If you claim to have thought of something (without seeing anyone else's work) then that is still forgivable. But to take stuff and pass it off as yours then that is despicable.

At the end of the day, when you look in the mirror, you have to deal with yourself, with honesty. To thine self be true.

^
Words from the Master himself....

There's nothing wrong on following someone's footstep as long as you're giving credit to where its due ...

Or copying someones setup just for the learning stage...

Everybody has to start on something . . .



. . .

Someone once asked me the same thing about teaching.

Don't I worry about teaching other photographers what I know?

Here's a the video interview:

http://entrepbuff.com/week_by_week_session_14_open_doors_for_others_and_ the_better_you_will_be

Cheers!

Jo Avila

Interesting thread... this has been an issue since i don't know when... and i think, whoever is copying.. would just say to you glen is, "so? ano ngayon? buti nga may bumibilib ng gawa mo eh?!?".. (trans: So what, you are lucky that ppl notice/admire your work!)..

If you look at it, we are ALL guilty of copying anything.. from fashion, make up, lighting, posing the model, etc... i don't have any intentions of bashing anybody ok? but do you think you or i did anything original? i for one.. still do research.. before i do my shoots.. one of the few reasons is.. how i can make my photo look damn good.. better than what i took the previous shoot.. copy, yes.. but i try to make it my own.. put some of my "pagod" in it..

For the photographers who are copying other people's work.. i just hope that it's just a stepping stone for you guys to further improve your skills.. you shouldn't be in other people's shadow, forever.. try to look for your own style.. maybe someday.. other people will copy you also. hhahaaha.

A couple of days ago I was listening to Jay Z's new album and at the last song titled "Thank You" my heart jumped when i heard Pacqiao's name got mentioned in the lyrics. You know your famous as hell when your name gets mentioned in a rap song.:Grin: The same concept can be applied here - You know youve concretized your place in the art side of photography when people start coppying your style ( lighting, poses, composition even pp! ). It just goes to show you have ironed out and expressed your art so clearly you are able to communicate it so well that people identify it as amazing and will try to copy it in their work to smear some of that amazingness into their own produce.

I get the part where you say, pinagpaguran mo ung pagiisip ng concept and execution, while others just sit and watch what youll do next and just copy it after a week into their own set..Its that feeling that these "freeloaders" are reaping the fruits of your hard earned labor. This is exactly what my mother use to tell me everyday when i was still living with her!hahaha!:D I think sir, you should take this as a compliment more than any other!:)

I have an engineering background and I think like so. We never re-invent the wheel - we improve on it.

Dov Simens, my teacher in film school, once said: "No one owns a thought!" And I think that is a very radical conviction...and I believe him. What people own is the material product of their thought/s, but not the thought itself.

A couple of days ago I was listening to Jay Z's new album and at the last song titled "Thank You" my heart jumped when i heard Pacqiao's name got mentioned in the lyrics. You know your famous as hell when your name gets mentioned in a rap song.:Grin: The same concept can be applied here - You know youve concretized your place in the art side of photography when people start coppying your style ( lighting, poses, composition even pp! ). It just goes to show you have ironed out and expressed your art so clearly you are able to communicate it so well that people identify it as amazing and will try to copy it in their work to smear some of that amazingness into their own produce.

I get the part where you say, pinagpaguran mo ung pagiisip ng concept and execution, while others just sit and watch what youll do next and just copy it after a week into their own set..Its that feeling that these "freeloaders" are reaping the fruits of your hard earned labor. This is exactly what my mother use to tell me everyday when i was still living with her!hahaha!:D I think sir, you should take this as a compliment more than any other!:)


When the copying is just too obvious... too much.. too pilit.. and all the TOO's.. you'll get pissed in the end.. it's nice at first. that ppl notice and copy your work.. but once or twice is enough.. the 10th time... it ain't funny anymore.

When the copying is just too obvious... too much.. too pilit.. and all the TOO's.. you'll get pissed in the end.. it's nice at first. that ppl notice and copy your work.. but once or twice is enough.. the 10th time... it ain't funny anymore.

It's funny, I just remember this, didn't Avril Lavigne got pissed because of the "too much copying" of her neck tie fashion? She can't sue them all of plagiarism, can she?:Grin::D:BlackEye:

http://img3.ak.crunchyroll.com/i/spire1/03052008/5/5/6/3/55631f9e295790_full.jpg
photo from http://www.crunchyroll.com/group/Avril_Lavigne_Fan_Group

does this phrase ring a bell?

You're Nothing but a Second Grade,trying Hard, Copy-cat!...so matter what, they'll just be Second Grade But still it will get in your nerves though.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2568/3834809893_b3b68467ef.jpg (http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2568/3834809893_b3b68467ef.jpg)
Original



http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2497/3953112666_fce9b94726.jpg
Copy


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3584/3834809837_cb683ed37d.jpg
Another copy (notice the word "malikhain")


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3452/3953117584_5ba9139ea9.jpg
How the sorority revised it after I spoke to them about being "malikhain." :D

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2497/3953112666_fce9b94726.jpg


Whoever painted the faces was quite prophetic! Notice the sun with the 9 rays?? It was recently announced that another ray would be added to the original 8. :D

@ Genald

Its ok to be pissed. Thats human nature.

But dont linger. Move on. True artists evolve.

Make them think again on how you did that shoot.

as for me, who have learned photography/graphic arts entirely through the internet, i derived my learning from generous people who share their techniques on how they go about their masterpieces. one of the main reason why i joined DPP is because i want to learn. i want to shoot events like joel garcia, landscapes like jay jallorina, portraiture like the illuminati guys, weddings like lei sarmiento, and so on. i feel very happy everytime my photos appeared to be a little close to theirs, i'm happy not because i successfully copied them, it's because i learned, and that is a joyful fulfillment and no one can take that away from me. though i never consulted with any of them personally, i thanked them for showing such inspirational images that continuously ignite my interest in this field.

i believe that some people share their works here to provide inspiration and learning to others (i guess that's what this forum is all about). i also believe that most of the great photographers nowadays got their influences from other great photographers. have anyone here started uniquely? i don't think so. so let us just continue helping each other grow.

i believe that some people share their works here to provide inspiration and learning to others (i guess that's what this forum is all about). i also believe that most of the great photographers nowadays got their influences from other great photographers. have anyone here started uniquely? i don't think so. so let us just continue helping each other grow.

@ Genald

Its ok to be pissed. Thats human nature.

But dont linger. Move on. True artists evolve.

Make them think again on how you did that shoot.

well said sirs.. also read somewhere that a photographer has 2 stages, 1st is that you try to emulate other photographers and 2nd is you strive to differentiate yourself from other photographers..

But dont linger. Move on. True artists evolve.

Make them think again on how you did that shoot.

Great approach and attitude, Levi...

for me its like cooking... no chef in this world who started out cooking his/her own original dish w/o making spaghetti (i know spaghetti is a pathetic example, but just to point out the idea)... :Grin:
upon leaning, there comes innovation... but sometimes other people tend to be off settled w/ their peice of work w/o improvement... but again, as my wife once said "if we fail to evolve, we fail to exist..."

I think the late great FrancisM's words pretty much sum it all up.

Had a watercolor painter who asked permission from me to use some of my images for a contest. I didn't mind as he is a friend of mine. I asked him as to the type of gratification that he was getting considering that he was copying my work through a different medium.

He told me that he was still at that stage where he was learning about light and how it relates to how he mixes colors. That he wasn't yet at that stage where can do concepts on his own. Just as Jo and the others have said, it really depends on the perspective and where one is in his own learning curve as a photographer/artist.

This is a forum for learning and not just for showcasing works. And, well, part of learning is copying.

I asked Manny Librodo about this issue. I'm sure you'll all agree that he is one of the most copied online. He said that there was really nothing that you can do about it given the nature of the beast. Digital = Duplication. More importantly, he said that most of those who copy eventually fall by the wayside, anyway.

Besides, if they were copying your style, they will think "genaldesque" instead of the copy cat. It's harder for the copy cat in the long run.

So, yes, FrancisM did have it down pat when he said to thine own self be true.

Hey, I copied a few before I settled on what I can comfortably call my own.

No need to sweat it. You're way far too ahead of the curve. Let them do the sweating.

A former basic photography student sent me an email a couple of months after he finished taking my seminar.

He was thanking me for what I taught him - especially about the part regarding my editing workflow in Photoshop (selecting files, labelling, adjusting of color, brightness, contrast, etc.).

We talked during a break on the day I was teaching his batch about Photoshop. He said that he had been a long time Photoshop user. But his workflow had no direction. The first time he ever heard anyone tell him when do to what or this before that was during my lecture.

He told me in his email that he had a better understanding of post processing workflow after my seminar. He was able to get my workflow and adapt it with his existing Photoshop workflow.

He was grateful because he can now post process with better results and greater efficiency in terms of the time it takes him to finish editing a whole batch of images.

It's the same way with shooting. I'm pretty sure that we have all studied images whose lighting and composition we admired and tried to figure out how to copy it. The logical next step (if we wish to grow as a photographer) is to figure out how to improve upon the technique and make it our own.

The same thing should happen with subject and topic concepts and how we interpret them with the images that we create or capture.

I'm grateful when former students contact me and tell me they appreciate what I taught them. But once in a while, a former student also tells me how they have improved upon what I taught them. I look forward to those moments because it meant that they have mastered the knowledge well enough to make it unique to their vision and style of shooting.

My former boss/mentor encouraged me to analyze photos that I like and build an image bank in my head. The image bank would serve as a starting point whenever I would shoot. I still rely on the image bank in my head during some shoots. It makes the job easier. What I hope makes my images unique and noteworthy is how I put my own spin on the concept/technique.

My favorite location strobe is a battery powered studio strobe called the Photon. I used to haul it to almost all of my shoots. I have a friend in Tacloban who saw me use it during a wedding a shoot. He was so impressed with the Photon's versatility and results that he got one for himself.

That same friend was in Cebu a couple of years later. He was already a professional photographer. He saw another pro photographer in Cebu shooting a wedding portrait. The other pro was also using a Photon. He took note of how the other pro was using his Photon and he said to himself, "I think this guy was also influenced by Jo Avila."

He went up to the other pro and introduced himself. My friend from Tacloban was right. He met one of my friends from Cebu. LOL!

Worrying about people copying your style is pointless if you think about how you are as a photographer now. Why? It implies that who you are as a photographer will not progress past the point of where you are at the present.

Raul is right. Keep on shooting and just let the others keep on chasing you :D

Cheers!

Jo Avila

Emulation or copying is not confined in one area of artistic rendition or method. Of all the years man evolves in different culture and technology, for sure, there will be imitation.

But for all things that happened, only one can be remembered as the original.

Remember the slogan of Lebron James in reference to his following to the great Michael Jordan: "Not the second, but the first". He can't escape this moniker unless he revolutionize most of his playing style.

I can see parallelism in this. I firmly believe that once you have established yourself on this technique and method, people will always see others as copycats and come to mind the original artisan.

im not too good with words, but i have some photos :)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_JjLmrbWjcNw/SlJub8_q5tI/AAAAAAAAAgI/BSuVr5gLpVQ/s320/JanSteen.crop2.jpg
The Dissolute Household painting by Jan Steen

Inspired this series by Julie Blackmon
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_JjLmrbWjcNw/SlJz4RG_4eI/AAAAAAAAAhQ/knfXAsPchpg/s320/Frontporch.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_JjLmrbWjcNw/SlK-X1novCI/AAAAAAAAAiw/N11nW4pNsuU/s320/Rooster3.jpg

and this link :)
http://www.ianaleksanderadams.com/blog/a-sunday-afternoon-with-we-english/

or this:

http://www.mid-day.com/lifestyle/2009/jan/130109-Vishesh-Verma-Chanel-Photographers-Copy-women-trouser-suits-Androgny-Fashion-Diane-Keaton.htm

http://www.soak.com/topic/phototography/article/tshow/93437/copy+a+style+to+find+your+own

We are not talking about "copying and pasting" here are we?
as long as nobody is "copying" or taking my whole work ( like word by word or using your shots and putting their name on it ) and claiming it his or her own work and posting it, I can live with it.

I have seen some of my photo's style copied, as a noob at photograpy, I kinda like it, i guess i am growing as a photographer.

here is a thread by bradyphotography at modelmeyhem.com


original -
http://modelmayhm-9.vo.llnwd.net/d1/photos/070915/07/46ebd0e69ded9.jpg


The 9th direct copy I have found:
http://modelmayhm-1.vo.llnwd.net/d1/photos/081013/20/48f3ee21b686a.jpg

Have you been copied?
How do you feel about it?

I have seen some of my photo's style copied, as a noob at photograpy, I kinda like it, i guess i am growing as a photographer.

Care to show what was copied from you? Really sure you own the style? Sorry for the OT.

don't you think we should ask ourselves that "is it really our style? Do we really have done something out of nothing?" we might have revolutionize something but at some point we admire something and inspires us to do what we are "doing" now...let's not own what we know,,our thoughts are products of someone else's idea...the same as their's...owning one's thought holds one's self to grow and develop..

The sense isn't about the copying.
It's about someone else raking in the cash.

And i'm being discrete here.

The sense isn't about the copying.
It's about someone else raking in the cash.

And i'm being discrete here.

You got a point here sir Marlo,,:)

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2497/3953112666_fce9b94726.jpg
Copy


Wow, sincere flattery? :D
Were you able to find the one responsible for this facsimile?

Plagiarism, , is the "use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own original work."-- the legal term of this situation.



"One of my biggest passions is meeting all kinds of people and imitating them"

- Leonardo DiCaprio