Hi guys, what do we really look for in an inkjet printer? is it the quality? low unit price? low ink cost?

Since we are in the digital age, everything we do are all digital, what printer best suits photography requirements?

post in your comments, tips and tricks :Thinking:, this thread is dedicated to the newbies in printing system.

hi guys,

This maybe a very stupid question, but I need help, I am just new in digital photography and I use Adobe Photoshop CS2 to print but color is way off. Can anybody here give me advice? I don't want to buy those expensive proofing software. I just want to print maybe close to what I see on the monitor.

Please give me some tips without spending much. Hope for your reply. Have a nice day.

Hi Sonia,

In my opinion, inkjet printing is probably the most overlooked aspect in digital photography. The technological advancement over the last say ten years has enabled the photographer to take control of their output. Just like taking photographs, there is a learning curve to all this, although a short one since most printers like Epson print great out of the box.

I only use Epson printers so I'll give you some tips based on this:

1) Make sure you calibrate your monitor. If you are using windows that means using Adobe Gamma in PS. This is bascially an eyeball measure but its better than not doing anything.

2) You must use original Epson inks and papers. The reason I say this is because Epson profiles all their papers with their inks. This means you do not need to spend on all the expensive profiling gear. I experiment with different media so I have no choice but to use profiling gear. But in your case, stick with original Epson products. You will be surprised at what kind of quality you can get.

3) Edit your image preferably in the Adobe RGB space. After editing, duplicate your image and flatten your file. The flattened file will be your print file. I suggest putting a mild sharpen on the print file.

4) I print off a MAC and can't remember the interface for Windows anymore but the settings should be similar. You just need to find them.

Print with Preview
Let Photoshop Determine Color
Profile- choose the paper that you are using
Rendering Intent- Perceptual (my preference for portraits. Use Relative Colorimetric if you want more saturation).

When you are handed over to the Printer Driver you should

Choose the Proper Paper, the same as the paper profile you used. This is important.
Print with Color and go to Advanced
1440 dpi is the ideal. Don't bother with 720 or 2880
No Color Management- this is important. Color Management MUST be turned OFF because you are letting Photoshop determine the color conversion.
PRINT

Once you get the settings down, it becomes relatively really easy.

Good luck and post back if you have any other questions.

hi sonya,

There a lot of ways to get accurate color printing, nick is right first thing you have to do is to calibrate your monitor.

in PS CS2, under windows, steps to follow..

1. Go to edit>color settings> choose Adobe RGB 1998
2. restart photoshop
3. Open the image > preserve embedded profile
4. Go to view>proof setup> custom>choose your printer profile>standard
5. Enable preserve color numbers
6. file> print with preview
7. page setup > printer...>type of paper > size
8. print space > profile = printer color management
9. print!

of course it all depends if your monitor is calibrated. With windows environment, most windows comes with graphic card color adjustment.

Prehistoric style- after printing, place your printout beside your monitor, manually adjust the RGB settings unitl it match your print-out. save the settings, then everytime you print the monitor display will be around 88% accurate with your print-out.

Modern style - buy a monitor calibrator :)

I have two wide-format HP printers (1125C and 1180C) but are getting a bit tired already. I'm thinking of investing in an Epson printer. Which Epson printer model would you guys recommend?

By the way, are Epson inks cheaper than HP's? I use the HP51645A black (P1600) and C1823D (P1800)... FYI...

Dindin,

Maybe you can answer these questions, and I can point you to the right printer.

Do you plan to sell your prints?
What size print do you expect to output?
Are you serious about Black and White photography?
What kind of paper is your preference?
How often do you print? The volume?

Well if you got two wide format HPs (how wide?) then you must be a serious printer, but nevertheless, let us know and hopefully we can advise you properly.

Do you plan to sell your prints?
-- not in the near future... am not that confident yet to sell...

What size print do you expect to output?
-- 5R up

Are you serious about Black and White photography?
-- the dream is there

What kind of paper is your preference?
-- now, i don't have the slightest idea what kind of paper I should use.

How often do you print? The volume?
-- twice a week... depends on the outcome of the shoot... maybe 10-20 images if i get lucky

honestly, my alternative is to just bring them to DPi for printing... but, i just want to have a good printer...

My 2 HPs are so tired already...

THANKS, NICK!!!

I just saw this thread now. I too am interested in getting a printer for home use. I currently use a HP Deskjet 5652. I've been discouraged by a cousin from printing my own pics. Better to have it printed in the bigger labs. Is this true? It's so much more convenient to print at home. :)

Dindin,

You could probably go with a simple and very excellent Epson printer such as the R230. Very easy to get great prints straight out of the box. This is an A4 printer so that means your largest size is 8R prints. If you want larger then you can go the DPI route. Ink costs are reasonable since individual ink cartridges may be replaced. I don't think your HP allows this. If you want Black and White prints, you can try the Black mode in the printer. It only uses the black ink so that means you won't get metamerism or too much of a color cast on your B&W. And you can also print CDs with this printer. For a little bit over P6K, you can't go wrong.

I just saw this thread now. I too am interested in getting a printer for home use. I currently use a HP Deskjet 5652. I've been discouraged by a cousin from printing my own pics. Better to have it printed in the bigger labs. Is this true? It's so much more convenient to print at home. :)

I believe that a popular inkjet printer such as Epson or HP can get your prints to say around 90% perfect straight out of the box. Going from 90% to 100% is the difficult part. If you got a photo that is worthy of the extra detail, then you should probably send out your work to a competent lab or fine art printer.

@Nick

Would the Epson R230 be a better printer for pics than my deskjet? If it can print till 8R, that would be fine with me already. For 6k, I wouldn't mind getting it if it will print better than what I have.

Thanks! :)

I am not so familiar with your HP model but I believe the Deskjet series may be designed more for office printing than anything else. It probably uses four inks. For photo quality you should probably go with the Photosmart series of HP that use 6 to 9 inks. I don't think you can go wrong with the Epson R230. Its a six color printer and in my opinion one of Epson's better models.

I am not so familiar with your HP model but I believe the Deskjet series may be designed more for office printing than anything else. It probably uses four inks. For photo quality you should probably go with the Photosmart series of HP that use 6 to 9 inks. I don't think you can go wrong with the Epson R230. Its a six color printer and in my opinion one of Epson's better models.

Thanks, Nick! Will look into the Epson R230. :)

I've been using Epson printers for some time now and am quite happy with them. Let me just repeat what another person already stated: use original ink!

I use an HP 7960 primarily for its great b/w output. However, its just limited to A4. Lately, I am having difficulty finding the gray ink #59. Its so hard to find it here in Metro Manila. If budget would no longer be a problem, I'll definitely get either another HP or Epson printer that is A3+ capable.

I also use original ink paired with HP's Premium Plus papers.

Now Rosalie, if you got P120K to spare, pick up the Epson 4800 to reach printing nirvana! :D

6k+ or 120k... Wow, Nick! What a huge price difference!!! :Grin: But if that comes with lifetime free ink, I'd reconsider. Hehehe! :D

Dindin,

You could probably go with a simple and very excellent Epson printer such as the R230. Very easy to get great prints straight out of the box. This is an A4 printer so that means your largest size is 8R prints. If you want larger then you can go the DPI route. Ink costs are reasonable since individual ink cartridges may be replaced. I don't think your HP allows this. If you want Black and White prints, you can try the Black mode in the printer. It only uses the black ink so that means you won't get metamerism or too much of a color cast on your B&W. And you can also print CDs with this printer. For a little bit over P6K, you can't go wrong.

oh, my God!!! P6k+ printer? (why so cheap? am just so surprised...) woohoo... i'll check it out.

The R230 is a desktop printer, sells for around P6-7K, and prints excellent.

The 4800 is around P120K. Its what you call Epson professional printers and prints up to A2 size using the new Ultrachrome K3 inks. If you are really really serious about your photography and printing, then the pro printers should be a consideration. You rival pro lab quality for color. For Black and White, the 4800 or larger 7800 / 9800 printers are unbeatable. You must see it to believe it.

@Nick

Nice to know that there is a printer that will actually rival pro lab quality for color. I think I have to work on becoming a better photographer first before I can justify spending so much to print my photos. :Grin: Good to have the option though... :)

Hi Rosalie,
If you buy your own Epson printer, you have total control over your output. Much have been discussed here over color shift and calibration, but for me, the important part in printing your own works simulates the traditional darkroom effort, from post production to printing, i find satisfaction in seeing my print coming out of the Epson 9800. Another part that i like is experimenting different paper stocks...so different paper will produce different color result, there's no standard, it's up to you coz you are the printer...but never experiment loading up your printer with fake inks. The bottom line is, if you love to see your work under glass with frame or binded as a folio catalog, use the Epson inkjet printer by all means =)

Hi Ross...

Which Epson printer do you recommend? And which is the best paper to use...

Printing requirements: can print nicely even up to just 8R size... should be able to do back-feeding (for paper/board that are 300gsm and thicker... and reasonably priced (not necessarily cheap)

Din2

Hi Ross,

What printer would you recommend? I have much to learn. I've been reading the thread re monitor calibration, color management,... and must say don't totally understand it yet. But that's the goal... :Grin: Always original ink... :)

I've run 300 gsm sheets through the normal paper feed in a 1290 without any problems. I don't think you would need to backfeed for that thickness. I would go with the R1800 for A3 or the R230 for A4. The 1290 is good A3 printer but its been in the market for around five or six years so you are better off getting the newer technology.

What say you Ross?
Hi Ross...

Which Epson printer do you recommend? And which is the best paper to use...

Printing requirements: can print nicely even up to just 8R size... should be able to do back-feeding (for paper/board that are 300gsm and thicker... and reasonably priced (not necessarily cheap)

Din2

@ Nick

My other concern is: When you print black text (documents), does it print solid (not smudgy)?

I would go with the R1800 for A3 or the R230 for A4. The 1290 is good A3 printer but its been in the market for around five or six years so you are better off getting the newer technology.


Nick,

Is there a huge difference in print quality between the R230 and R1800? Just want to put into perspective the differences between the 2, besides max paper size. :) Also, can you give me an idea how much the inks would cost? Thanks!

The pro user will see the difference but the amateur will probably not. R230 is a dye ink while R1800 uses pigment. The problem with pigment inks is that while they provide longevity, they could never replicate the color gamut of dye inks. That dilemma was solved with the R1800. If you have any intention of selling your images, you have to use the R1800 because this printer is probably has the highest longevity photo ratings of anything out there. Try over 100 years on glossy paper. The R230 will give you maybe 20 years.

20 years may sound long enough but in reality its probably not. If you take pictures of your children now (lets say you have a son at 5 years old), by the time he graduates high school all those photos will be all faded. Odds are the cd you burnt the image to cannot be opened or you probably misplaced it. The safe bet is to print the image with a printer that can guarantee that image to last four generations.

The inks systems are totally different also.

R230- 5 picoliter C, LC (Light Cyan), M, LM (Light Magenta), Y, K (Black)
R1800- 1.5 picoliter C, M, Y, K, Red, Blue, Gloss Optimizer

Dyes have a larger color gamut than pigments but the R1800 was developed to match the color gamut of dyes by replacing the LC and LM with Red and Blue inks. The Gloss Optimizer coats a glossy image to make it even shinier.

Price for inks on both systems are around P550 per cartridge.

@Nick

Thank you so much for the information. Right now, the longevity of the prints is what I'm putting more weight on. You're right, 20 years isn't very long. I will try to read more on dye and pigment inks so I'll have a better understanding. You gave me a lot to think about. :)

Hi Ross...

Which Epson printer do you recommend? And which is the best paper to use...

Printing requirements: can print nicely even up to just 8R size... should be able to do back-feeding (for paper/board that are 300gsm and thicker... and reasonably priced (not necessarily cheap)

Din2


Hi Din,

It depends on your requirements...what do you normally print? what sizes? frequency of printing?:) because i can recommend a printer that even illustration board can handle...:)

hi dindin,
The r230 is more on home-use. When it comes to text printing especially using a plain paper, the texts are not as sharp as document printers like that of the deskjet, since the R230 is for photo printing.

now if you will need a photo printer for an A3+ nick's suggestion of the R1800 is also good and can handle thick media of 300gsm. But since you will be investing on a good printer and would someday jump from colored printing to B/W, I suggest you get the PRO4800, gives you best of both worlds (colored & B/W).

use your photo printer primarily as a photo printer and a document printer for a document printer.

Using a photo printer as a document printer will mean higher cost per page, since the photo printer uses 6-colors.

hi estan,

check out this site, it gives you more explanation of a b/w printing capabilities of epson.


http://photoshopnews.com/2005/05/16/epson-r2400-and-ultrachrome-k3-ink-report/

Heidi, thanx for the link. That was quite helpful. Technology really has come of age wherein digital output rivals traditional/analog prints.

I would like to add also, HP7960 (now replaced with a newer version using Vivera inks) is a really good printer for b/w. But eventually, A4 size for me is just too small. That's why, Dindin, you might want to assess if 8R size for you is already enough. Once you output at that size, you will start to think of "what if" scenarios. Getting printers that are capable of larger than A4 also opens a lot of possibilities that might be beneficial in the long run than investing on an A4 max size printer then replacing it with another after a few months.

@Nick

Thank you so much for the information. Right now, the longevity of the prints is what I'm putting more weight on. You're right, 20 years isn't very long. I will try to read more on dye and pigment inks so I'll have a better understanding. You gave me a lot to think about. :)

Rosalie,

I have the older Epson R310 and have had converted to CIS for over a year now. It works fine regardless of paper as long as you calibrate that paper to the printer. Mitsubishi papers are good and cheap but they tend to be yellowish, so I just create a profile on the printer for that paper. Epson paper are the best because they are spot on the color, though they are more expensive, even with generic inks.

As for longevity, dye based prints aren't going to reach even 6 months without fading in bright light. So, if your goal is to display, dye based printers is not the way to go. Even inside the house, you'd be lucky to have your prints last 1 year.

Wilhelm Research has indicated a 200-300 years life for dye based only IF they are stored in darkness, such as in an album. I can vouch for that for at least over 1 year. I have prints that are in albums and they look the same as they were printed over a year ago, even with the non-epson inks. So, if you are going to keep them, with virtually no light, my guess is even 100 years, they will last. Go for the dye based solution.

Now, IF you want to display your prints, you can get the R1800 or R800 (we don't have the latter here). But there is a cheaper solution. Get the C67 or C87 series of Epson. They are pigment based. And they will last 50-100 years on display based on Wilhelm Research (with variations on paper used of course).

Personally, I can vouch for the longevity of these prints. What I did was print on these printers at the Epson showroom (it's free to print, just bring your own paper), and I printed on a c65 for another batch using generic pigment based inks. during the March-April months where there was hardly rain and it was hot, I exposed these prints to hard sunlight even to the 10am-3pm sunlight direct on the prints (I would rotate them to face the sun). Did this for 2 months! :BlackEye: It rained only 3-4 times so that was the only times I had to take them in the house.

The results? The prints lasted with virtually no fading!:D This is under 100,000 lux equivalent exposure during the peak hours! The dye based tests I did started to fade on the 3rd or 4th week. But this was 2 months and it's still on the balcon where there is still ample light though much shaded now for about 5 months! Wilhelm Research exposes the prints to 12 hours a day on a 450 lux rating only. Check out http://www.wilhelm-research.com/ if you want to see their test results.

I compared the output and longevity of the original epson Durabrite Ultra inks and the generic inks and I might say so that the generics even was better! Colors seem brighter to me! Of course you will spend maybe P3,500 to convert it to a CIS, but it may be worth it if you will print a lot. A single color cartridge of epson is around P430 so it will pile up in time. And the image quality and color rendition is the same. If you want you can come over and take a look for yourself. Or you can bring your own paper and visit any Epson showroom (there's one in megamall and sm-north) and print your image and do the light fading test.

So, if you want longevity while displaying go for the pigment based printers. The C67 can be had for P4,000 and the C87 for P5,000. I will go for the C87 even if it is more expensive because the C67 prints an A4 color image in 28 min vs 14min for the c87. I can print 4 images in an hour with c87 vs c67 w/c will give me only 2. If time is not that valuable to you, then go for the c67.

But here's the caveat.

Pigment based printer of this price structure don't print well in glossy paper. You are stuck with matted paper. I don't mind matte paper, but if you like glossy paper, it won't work. So, you will have to buy matte paper and even original ones. The good news is that even the original matte papers of epson cost around P14/A4 maybe because nobody buys them! You can even get a double sided version for about the same price! So, you can print on both sides.

I now have an R310 w/c is good. Had some problems a while back but it was just dirty contacts on the ink cartridges to the printer. It's now ok. And being a CIS, I save a LOT on ink cost.

I am planning on getting a c87 (because I cannot afford the r1800) so I can display some of my images without fading in 1 month or 6! P5,000 for the c87 and a quoted P3,200 for a CIS is just ok. Of course it will be on matte paper, but I don't mind. I like matte for display.

So, it's just a tip w/c you might find useful :)

-Mel

R1800 though using pigment inks can print great images even on glossy papers, unlike the inks of what C67/87 uses. As for CIS it's not really advisable coz once you convert the unit it, will not be covered by the warranty even if it fails before its once year period.

R1800 though using pigment inks can print great images even on glossy papers, unlike the inks of what C67/87 uses. As for CIS it's not really advisable coz once you convert the unit it, will not be covered by the warranty even if it fails before its once year period.

True. But I've had mine for over a year now. So, if it fails now, it won't be covered by warranty anyway. :) I converted it on it's 4th month. There were hundreds of 210/310 users ahead of me who had theirs converted, so there was a precedent and the CIS was well tested on these printers. So, I wasn't worried. And the R210/310 series was over 2 years old as a series when I got my 310, so it was a reliable and proven line. In fact it took over 3 years before the 350/230/250 came to replace this line. A tribute to the longevity and proven technology of this family/line. And I've seen heavy duty use of these printers with some on the older CIS (you can tell by the old style bottles that hold the ink), so you know that this line works well with CIS.

I've printed, maybe 300 x A4s on my R310, maybe more. I know I've spent only about P1,800 on inks for all of those (more or less) and still using the batch I've bought last year. Think about the money I would have spent on inks (P430 per well) to print those 300 A4s! The R210/310 has 6 wells. I bet I would have gotten myself another printer had I bought the original inks to print those 300 A4s.

So, I figure, scrub the warranty. It's an illussion unless your unit is 1-6 months old. Past that, you'd be paralized to print because of the price of the ink. So, you have a 7 month old printer that is coverd by warranty that you do not use because of ink prices.

Oh, that's not counting the cost of transpo to Quiapo and back home, the time lost that should have been spent for working or doing something productive because I went to Quiapo to print 6-15 images. So, CIS savings do add up.

Of course, I respect those who do not wish to have their system converted. That is really up to them. To me, the risks were acceptable. And now that I am past over 1 year, warranty is now moot. But the CIS has paid for itself many times over. And the printer is still working. Maybe time to move onto the C87 to get pigment longevity on my prints (no glossy paper though). :) R1800 is beyond my budget :Mad:

-Mel

thats good for you that your CIS worked for you.
just remember that CIS and basically non genuine inks are a hit and miss product.

best to consider them only after warranty has lapsed.

thats good for you that your CIS worked for you.
just remember that CIS and basically non genuine inks are a hit and miss product.

best to consider them only after warranty has lapsed.


I have good suppliers of ink who won't scrimp. In fact, my latest supplier (and friend) says he imports them from Germany. And when I get them, I buy them in quantity, so I am basically using a batch that's good as long as I have them and tested them.

Did a test on pigment based ink last year. I exposed two prints to direct sunlight for 3 months (except maybe 4 days where it rained). One was original epson durabrite ink printed from the showroom, the other generic inks. What surprised me was that the generic inks even performed better than the original epson inks!!! Well, not by much, but you can spot the slight difference if you look hard enough. Not a big deal to me though. But the price difference surely does! generic inks go for P200-300 per 100ml per color. espon inks go for P430 per color and they are basically only 15ml in volume!!!!:(

The prints are still with me now and alive and still being exposed to light, but not direct now. It's color are still vivid. No fading AFAIC. It will be one year old by October.



I will say one thing though, if your warranty has expired, then you have no protection anyway. Depending on printer, I'd just do the math and it's easy to see that you will save money with CIS. If you have 4 or 6 ink wells, at P400+ eadc and you'd get maybe 40 x A4s for that, and you will replace

A 4 ink CIS is just P3,200-3,500. The ink is around P200-300 per 100ml per color. Do the math.

And oh, Epson doesn't tell you this, but if you use that printer long enough, it's going to jam. It throws all that cleaning of the head and initialization in a cotton or container and that is going to get full and it will flood and will cause your printer to fail, and then you are going to bring it to Epson anyway. And if its past warranty they will charge you.

If you convert your system to CIS, that waste ink is routed outside the printer and you can dump that ink easy. And you will be surprised at how much ink epson uses to initialize or clean its head!! :Dum: Remember, they cost over P400 each color! I have 6 colors, and you know that will easily pile up to P5k in one year of use. If your printer is worth P3k-5k, it makes you wonder if you should just buy a new printer and sell your older one half the price! Remember the busines model of ink printers - Sell the printer cheap and make the kiliing on the ink.

Again, if you don't like to convert to CIS, that's ok. I am just relaying my own experience being a CIS user myself. To each his own. :)




-Mel

correction on the cotton that you mentioned.
it will not flood and cause your printer to fail.
that piece of cotton is called a waste pad -- its used to absorb residue ink from cleaning, etc.

when it gets full, its alerts you via a diaglog box the next time you want to print.
its a consumable part and you pay around P300 to P500 depending on the model to replace it, then off you go again. Think of it as an air cleaner filter in your car, once it gets full or dirty, you replace it. But it doesn't ruin your printer or head.

this is often encountered by heavy users who do a lot of printing.

Some think its the end of the printer life which is also not true.

well kudos to you for your CIS.

i will not be superficial about CIS.

you wanna use it, go ahead. Its a consumer choice. The same way we buy surplus parts for our car, The ame way we try cheaper alternatives for other products.

But i you want to try it...do so after the warranty period that is.

can epson technicians tell if you used non genuine during the warranty period?

of course they can.:)

but hey, thanks for buying our printer..... :) appreciate the support still..

curious lang po, how much ang R1800?
was in parksquare the other day and wala ako nakita na R1800. Most stores sell the R2XX.

You won't find the R1800 in most stores. I got mine by special order. Takes about three or four days. I believe I paid something like P36K for it. Its prints about as beautfiul as you could imagine. Would I run a CIS through this printer? Never. Maybe the cheaper models, but not this baby.

yikes... more than my budget pala. Im thinking of buying a printer coz my sis just gave birth and want to to print it without the hassle of going to the print labs.

how about the R350, is it better than the R230?

correction on the cotton that you mentioned.
it will not flood and cause your printer to fail.
that piece of cotton is called a waste pad -- its used to absorb residue ink from cleaning, etc.

when it gets full, its alerts you via a diaglog box the next time you want to print.
its a consumable part and you pay around P300 to P500 depending on the model to replace it, then off you go again. Think of it as an air cleaner filter in your car, once it gets full or dirty, you replace it. But it doesn't ruin your printer or head.

this is often encountered by heavy users who do a lot of printing.

Some think its the end of the printer life which is also not true.

well kudos to you for your CIS.

i will not be superficial about CIS.

you wanna use it, go ahead. Its a consumer choice. The same way we buy surplus parts for our car, The ame way we try cheaper alternatives for other products.

But i you want to try it...do so after the warranty period that is.

can epson technicians tell if you used non genuine during the warranty period?

of course they can.:)

but hey, thanks for buying our printer..... :) appreciate the support still..

btw, if your waste pad gets full within the warranty period, its free of course (to change it)
if its past, then of course, you pay for it. P300-P500 aint so bad for another second lease on life for your unit :Grin:

yikes... more than my budget pala. Im thinking of buying a printer coz my sis just gave birth and want to to print it without the hassle of going to the print labs.

how about the R350, is it better than the R230?

in terms of features and bingblings, then yes it is.
you can check out www.epson.com.ph (http://www.epson.com.ph)

They use the same inks. 6 color individual cartridges.
advantage of R350 is its has card slots for PC-less printing and an LCD screen to preview those images.

SRP for R350 is 12,995
SRP for R230 is 6,995

YOu might also wanna consider the R250.
@ 7,995, it uses 4 colors (might be cheaper for you) but is already a stand alone printer like the R350, with an LCD screen.

good luck, hope this helps.

ink cost per catridge btw, ranges from P440-P520 (depends where you get them..)

correction on the cotton that you mentioned.
it will not flood and cause your printer to fail.
that piece of cotton is called a waste pad -- its used to absorb residue ink from cleaning, etc.

I stand corrected on the name.

Oh, my r310 just started having error messages a month ago. Did some cleaning on the menu on the lcd. Still had that error once in a while. Then I saw that the black sponge on the printer w/c is visible when that head glides, and it was soaked with ink.

I took it off, and washed it at the faucet. It's working fine again. Maybe that's the one other users are encountering.



when it gets full, its alerts you via a diaglog box the next time you want to print.
its a consumable part and you pay around P300 to P500 depending on the model to replace it, then off you go again. Think of it as an air cleaner filter in your car, once it gets full or dirty, you replace it. But it doesn't ruin your printer or head.

this is often encountered by heavy users who do a lot of printing.


That's the operative word - "...heavy users who do a lot of printing." And CIS allows us that because, that's the killer thing for us consumers. The ink.

And you won't fill that pad or wear out your printer a lot because at the price of the original inks, you'd be paralized into printing. I've seen this with my neighbors who finally have their printers on display because of the cost of ink. When I was taking my master's degree, my classmates would spend P12,000 or more a year for printing with their ink jets. That's why I bought a laserjet printer then. In 2 years it took me to finish my thesis, I never bought a toner. I paid P18k for my printer installment. And a new original toner cost P2,500. A refilled is around P500-800 if I remember. My classmate finished his master's degree in 3.5 years. Do the math = 12k x3.5 = P42,000 on ink. I'll tell you one thing. Their printer cost them P4,800 only.

The moral there? If you are not into CIS, you will likely not print anymore and you likely will not have a conked out printer. But if you do use it, be prepared to spend thousands in ink in 1 year of use alone. You can buy another printer with that money:RedEye:. My classmate and her husband, and their 2 children are all in school. And you can see that ink costs can pile up and these valid and important printng jobs. These are term papers (not even using all the colors) and school work!


Some think its the end of the printer life which is also not true.

well kudos to you for your CIS.

i will not be superficial about CIS.

you wanna use it, go ahead. Its a consumer choice. The same way we buy surplus parts for our car, The ame way we try cheaper alternatives for other products.


And many of us will use it!!:Grin: And love it!:D



But i you want to try it...do so after the warranty period that is.

can epson technicians tell if you used non genuine during the warranty period?

of course they can.

but hey, thanks for buying our printer..... appreciate the support still..
And many of us buy Epson products. We LOVE epson products. It is a good product. The best in my own opinion. I recommend Epson products highly, over HP, or even Canon, heck especially Canon (my bias ). In my lifetime, the only non-epson printer I have bought for myself is the HP-6L. But I needed that for my term papers and school work. Saved me thousands of pesos on ink.

But you and I know what the business model is --- sell the printer low, sell the ink high. I don't hold that against epson. There would have been a class action suit if this was not legal. But as a consumer, you have to look at it from our standpoint. Buy a P3,000 printer and kill us later with a P1,700 ink to replace 4 wells? Might as well sell the printer 2nd hand for half the price when the ink is already running low, and buy a new one just to get the ink. Of course, many won't do that and have no time to go selling it on ebay or the like.

Think about it too. The success of epson is partly due to these CIS and refillable inks. If it were not so, we will have printers that are on display at homes now instead of being used. I know because I am the sort of neighborhood/street geek and they run to me when they have problems on their systems. And when it comes to brand, I am neutral and will point out the advantages of one over the other. But 80%, many of us buy epson. 2nd is HP in this neighborhood.

The success of the c65 is a testament of its durability in spite of clogging problems with original or CIS ink. You know the sales no. I don't even have to ask you. I know it because I see how much the vendors stock it, and how many consumers buy it. I was even surprised to see my cousin have one. Same with the R210/310 series. And there's a reason why they were models that were hardly updated for 2-3 years. Trust me, it's easier to find Canon and HP generic inks and if 3rd party. The CIS and refillable inks contributed to these sales, because, in time people are going to know its basic fault is high cost of ink and they will say better get an HP because there are generic inks and you can find them easy.

And when we do the math, it's easy to risk. I mean, P3,800 for an avg conversion. Ink is cheap at P200-300 per 100ml, not 15-20ml for P430! The printer goes bad (w/c does not happen 98% of the time). So what? Buy another one! It's just P2,800-3,800 printer! Buy that time, I would have printed maybe 100-200 A4 prints. Do the math on a per paper calculation and it's easy to say that it doesn't matter if the warranty is void and the printer is unrecoverable.

If the busines model is inverted where profit can be gained from the inks rather than the printer, well I've done the same and inverted my mindset. The CIS is the one thing that doesn't change, and the printer is disposable. The ink will drive the printer instead of the other way around.

He he he, easier said than done because I boguht an R310 and that cost me P10,500 at that time!! Epson would not have fixed or charged me if I was wrong. But the math was clear. Even if my R310 conked out for good and Epson won't fix it, I'd just transfer my CIS and buy a new printer! You say, I lost my P10,500?

Yes, and no. I have printed over 200 A4's already and spent only P1,800 on ink. I stopped counting past 200. Maybe I am already close to 300. I don't know. But those are Full color photos 100% on the page! Think of how many ink wells I would have used. And I still have to use up all that ink I bought last year! Could I have printed that much if I were constrained by the cost of original epson ink?

As an added bonus, I love Epson paper. They are just a few pesos per page more than the generic paper. In fact, I have 5 boxes x 50 sheetts of epson paper. Think about it. Would I buy them if I were using epson inks? No. Why? Because I don't need that much paper, as original epson inks would have constrained me and my print expectations would be less. Might not even buy epson paper at all because I would try to get the sub P10 paper just to save some more.

I also woud not go into the exact nos into how much per page it would cost me because it is really shocking to find how much you really pay per page. Let me just say that with a CIS, I am saving at LEAST P35 per A4 page I print in full 100% covered color image. And I have printed over 200 A4 prints already. Do the math.

I don't mean to ruffle your position. But this is the reality of our side of the fence. IF CIS was really that bad, the CIS conversion shops would not have flourished. They would have been a fad. But shops like Inks for Less, or something like that would not be sprouting all over the city for those who can't pay for CIS conversions. There is a market for substitute inks and that is a strong fact. The consumers are saying - "damn the warranty, I need to print affodably." Maybe espon should be addressing the price of inks if they want to stop the 3rd party inks. But I doubt if Epson Int'l is going to allow that.

I think epson should be happy that we have this option. Without this, I bet most would not be buying it. Why? Because even if you got a consumer to buy an epson printer, he will realize epson's business model too late. I'm sure his next purchase will be another brand because he will feel cheated, fell betrayed, hoodwinked. I know epson is not doing that intentionally, but that is what my neighbors felt when their sons/daughters started asking for hundreds of pesos each month for ink replacement. In the end they stopped printing, till I told them to get genric inks w/c is half the price.


And yes, BUYER BEWARE!!! Do CIS conversion AT YOUR OWN RISK!


But I knew that already. So, I still leave it up to folks to choose. But the math is clear to me. Past 6 months or after 1 year, you're on your own anyway. As a photographer who loves to see his shots printed, in my case it makes sense.
What I don't agree on is the atrocious prices of ink. You can't blame me for finding cheaper alternatives. I know the consequences of voiding the warranty. But as i said, do the math. As a consumer, do the math. You'd see why I went this route. You can't pooh-pooh or ignore the results. And the reality of it all is that people are buying generic inks.

What we can both agree on is this -- Epson printers are GREAT products. You can count on me to endorse them openly.

-Mel

Thanks Mel =)
at least we meet halfway :Grin:

tnx randy. btw, are you the kanapi from zobel?

tnx randy. btw, are you the kanapi from zobel?


well yes, i am from DLSZ, but there are several other kanapis from zobel too hehe - my sis and some cousins. :)

animo la salle dude.

hehehehe ic, were you the CAT officer?

hehehehe ic, were you the CAT officer?

s1 adjutant!! drop and give me 50!!
yikes o/t na.

my favorite was to make the female 'cadettes' squat hehehehe

bad. ot na nga. nice to see fellow la sallian here.

Hi guys..
Im also in the market for a prosumer printer..Ive heard about the R1800..

How about the Epson R2400? How much does it cost?

do we hav that here in the philippines? i believe its between the R1800 and the R4800..
thanks

hi mario,

unfortunately R2400 is not distributed here in the Philippines, the r2400 is reaping very good reviews in the net, but again it's not available, closest product is PRO 4800, R1800 uses different ink system. 4800 is the same ink system as the R2400.

Roughly how much is a CIS conversion kit for the R350?
and what shop is the best in terms of quality in CIS conversion?

The pro user will see the difference but the amateur will probably not. R230 is a dye ink while R1800 uses pigment. The problem with pigment inks is that while they provide longevity, they could never replicate the color gamut of dye inks. That dilemma was solved with the R1800. If you have any intention of selling your images, you have to use the R1800 because this printer is probably has the highest longevity photo ratings of anything out there. Try over 100 years on glossy paper. The R230 will give you maybe 20 years.

20 years may sound long enough but in reality its probably not. If you take pictures of your children now (lets say you have a son at 5 years old), by the time he graduates high school all those photos will be all faded. Odds are the cd you burnt the image to cannot be opened or you probably misplaced it. The safe bet is to print the image with a printer that can guarantee that image to last four generations.

The inks systems are totally different also.

R230- 5 picoliter C, LC (Light Cyan), M, LM (Light Magenta), Y, K (Black)
R1800- 1.5 picoliter C, M, Y, K, Red, Blue, Gloss Optimizer

Dyes have a larger color gamut than pigments but the R1800 was developed to match the color gamut of dyes by replacing the LC and LM with Red and Blue inks. The Gloss Optimizer coats a glossy image to make it even shinier.

Price for inks on both systems are around P550 per cartridge. Any idea how much it cost for the R1800? Thanks for your info.

thanks for the info heidi,
would prefer sana the R2400 over the R1800..was going to use it for black and white printing..

how much would the Pro 4800 cost? thanks

@egay
canvassed the R1800 at abt 38,000 plus..

the 4800 is more expensive, but the maximum width is also bigger up to 17" can accept both cut sheet and roll papers with built-in auto-cutter :) SRP is 127,200.00

thanks heidi,
there are two versions in the Epson website, the Pro 4800 and the Pro 4800 Professional Edition..which is the p127,000?

just the standard one.. the pro4800 professional comes with RIP software and network card. the PRO 4800 standard which is 127,200.00 is NOT bundled with those but can be purchased separately if a need arises.

thanks for the info heidi,
would prefer sana the R2400 over the R1800..was going to use it for black and white printing..

how much would the Pro 4800 cost? thanks

@egay
canvassed the R1800 at abt 38,000 plus.. Thanks for your input. medyo may kamahalan pala dyan. I just look at the amazon it cost around 26K.

yeah, the VAT it self is already 12%, but it is usually not advisable to do imports just for the fact of the warranty.

wow, i just read this thread. My apologies for posting something about the R4800. Ang mahal dito sa atin nito ah? Ms. Heidi, sino po ang nagbebenta nitong printer na ito dito? Kasi po i'm planning on upgrading my R1800 to the 4800 eh...

Whew Mel that was quite a long explanation really can feel your zest in promoting CIS....well why not if I may say. I have several questions for you, 1st where can we have a CIS conversion near mega mall or makati, 2nd, you say the inks are more vibrant would you say the quality of print will be acceptable for say wedding pics and where to buy them. Is this available at refillable ink outlets? Please rate the quality of prints from 1-10. I might try this .......

for people considering CIS, it's a little risky to use it for a Large Format because the printer head is very expensive. And it also defies the ultrachrome capability of the printer, being water resistant and fade resistant..

think about it first..

nitty gritty people who wants to get their perfect print usually callibrate their monitors to their printers and of course their cameras. well maybe at least get use the icc profile of your printer and paper when working in photoshop so that you'll have an idea on what your pic will look like.

Just bought "Ink all you can" from venta 5. I guess this is the type of ink you refer to as CIS. I was initially hesistant buying the ink for R310 becuase I hate to do installation of something not in the manual. However I was assured they will do the installation and testing. I recon, it would save me lots of money using the "ink all you can".

how much are the comparable CIS from other vendors?