i got a problem when printing my photos,,, i go to picture city, columbia and lately to fuji everytime i print my pictures,,, the problem is some of my pictures differ when i look at it at my laptop as supposed to the actual print,,, sometimes it's darker,, sometimes the shadow is gone,,, how can i avoid these mistakes,, i usually shoot/ print b&w,,

maybe it's a dumb question but any explanation will be greatly appeciated.

thanks:D

It's probably monitor calibration. Is yours calibrated?

Therat,

Not a dumb question but a very good one. Many of our forum members print using photo or mini labs. I have been asking some of the lab owners some specifics for their machines because we want to come up with a comprehensive tutorial on to best workflow for printing with labs.

Edwin Hermoso will share with us the Noritsu technicals and Anderson Tan can enlighten us on the KIS machine. We just need now some input for the Fuji Frontier.

First thing is first;
1) Are you working off a calibrated monitor? And what are you calibrated to? Your monitor may be too bright.
2) As for losing shadows, every printer has what you call a black point. The trick is to find out what this black point is for the lab you go to. How can you do this? I suggest you make several squares in photoshop that ramp up to pure black. Square one should start at around 30-30-30 (in RGB) and ramp down to 0-0-0. Have this file printed by your lab and when you get it back analyze where the point where you cannot tell the differences in density from the squares. This will show the black point of your printer. The next time you edit a photo, you will know what number will represent pure black with your printer. You can do the same with the printer white point. Make a ramp from say 225 to 255 and see where what square shows detail.

I believe that photo editing should be done with printing in mind. Calibrating and knowing the black and white points of your printer is possibly the most important if you mainly work in black and white.

tnx chuck and nick, :) esp on your 2nd tip:)

i think the problem is not in my monitor because i saw the pic in my bro's mac( and also in my cellphone,,) and it looks the same,, i think my laptop was just too bright but i will try to calibrate it just to be sure.:D

I did something similar before when I had some images printed at Fans Digital for my first photo exhibit. I sent over test images and adjust the output levels of the highlights at varying degrees. I ended up having to constantly set the output levels of my highlights to 235 just to maintain highlight detail.

Therat,

Not a dumb question but a very good one. Many of our forum members print using photo or mini labs. I have been asking some of the lab owners some specifics for their machines because we want to come up with a comprehensive tutorial on to best workflow for printing with labs.

Edwin Hermoso will share with us the Noritsu technicals and Anderson Tan can enlighten us on the KIS machine. We just need now some input for the Fuji Frontier.

First thing is first;
1) Are you working off a calibrated monitor? And what are you calibrated to? Your monitor may be too bright.
2) As for losing shadows, every printer has what you call a black point. The trick is to find out what this black point is for the lab you go to. How can you do this? I suggest you make several squares in photoshop that ramp up to pure black. Square one should start at around 30-30-30 (in RGB) and ramp down to 0-0-0. Have this file printed by your lab and when you get it back analyze where the point where you cannot tell the differences in density from the squares. This will show the black point of your printer. The next time you edit a photo, you will know what number will represent pure black with your printer. You can do the same with the printer white point. Make a ramp from say 225 to 255 and see where what square shows detail.

I believe that photo editing should be done with printing in mind. Calibrating and knowing the black and white points of your printer is possibly the most important if you mainly work in black and white.

i think the problem is not in my monitor because i saw the pic in my bro's mac( and also in my cellphone,,) and it looks the same,, i think my laptop was just too bright but i will try to calibrate it just to be sure.:D

is your bro's mac calibrated? :) if not most r probably prints from his mac will be same as your laptop's too. :D i had dark prints from my mac and acer 19wide combo before i had it calibrated (thanks bella luce for the sypder2!).

I herd somewhere that DSLR Cameras take pictures like two steps darker? which enables the file to take on more detail ? if this is true i would probably guess people who develop does the same? meaning makes it lighter two steps? hehehehehe i used to lighten pictures for work and when they come out they come out way too light. so what i usually do for photos taken by photographers is just to leave it as it is and it comes out ok :)
In photoshop there's an action bar that can record all the adjustments you do. Probably do automated batch actions for people, landscape etc... then make 1 lighter, 2 darker, 3 just right print them out and see which one works and save it. so that next time you want to edit photos you just click what effect you want :)
And oh... before Kodak develops pictures warmer or reddish and Fuji greener don't know if it still holds true though

I get this problem a lot, too. Minilab prints very seldom look good for me. I'd rather make my own prints with an ordinary inkjet and photo paper.

I've tried time and time again to obtain an ICC profile for minilabs in my area but the operators just go "duh, what's that?".

Anyone here have a solid workflow for output to a minilab?

At the very least have a print done with your favorite printer from a file that's kept both on your PC and your camera to check if your LCD is too bright or if your monitor is.

Practical MINILAB workflow.
1. Edit Photo
2. Bring file to minilab. Do not leave your file
3. Discuss with operator the output you want, look at their monitor and check if you get the colors you want.
4. Wait for your prints.
5. Check prints, IF SATISFIED, pay at the counter and get your prints and return to this lab again next time, if NOT SATISIFIED, return to step 3.

In case operator refuse to return to step 3, go to step 2.

Monitor calibration is only 40% of the battle, maybe less. The rest is a coin toss with the printer operator (mood swing, eye fatique, etc), machine calibration, their chemicals,paper, blah, blah, blah.

You might want to check out an article I wrote on "why my prints don't match my monitor" - http://dpiphotocenter.com/article1.html

Thanks, jun_lee. Operators do influence the output a lot. Even shots taken at a specific studio look different when reprinted, even on their own equipment.

I've tried doing things the hard way; i.e.:
1. having a test image printed at my favorite (?) minilab (without operator overrides)
2. compensating for the (sometimes ugly) output (working in CMYK, tweaking color balance and contrast, etc.)
3. repeating step 1 with new "compensated" image
4. repeating steps 1-3 as necessary
5. adjusting final image(s) according to results above
6. having final image(s) printed

So far I still only get satisfactory results.

Best output I get so far is from dye sublimation printers. But prints from those are expensive.

@Jan_Chaves
That will work, until your suking minilab, reformats/recalibrates/whatever their machine and everything is off again.

Sorry for being sarcastic, but with all these theories and discussion on color management I'm still waiting for somebody to tell me this "I had my monitor calibrated, and I use xxx labs printer profile, I tell the lab to print without any corrections and the prints come out the way I want them."

Anybody?

I still have to try out DPI's printing though.

Try going to Kodak in Shangri-La Mall. They print nicely there.

@Jan_Chaves
That will work, until your suking minilab, reformats/recalibrates/whatever their machine and everything is off again.

Sorry for being sarcastic, but with all these theories and discussion on color management I'm still waiting for somebody to tell me this "I had my monitor calibrated, and I use xxx labs printer profile, I tell the lab to print without any corrections and the prints come out the way I want them."

Anybody?

I actually am able to get print matches to a very high level. I have also set up the system for some people and they've been getting good matches. Sadly kasi its not as simple as my monitor is calibrated and i have the profiles. There are various settings that have to be selected when calibrating/profiling the monitor and if one chooses the wrong one, then he will not get a match. A crucial element for matching is the viewing light. If the color temp of your viewing light doesn't match the white point of your monitor then you really won't get a match. Among other things.

Oh well, I guess there are just too many variables involved in the output end when processing. Ambient temperature, paper, chemicals, operator preferences, even the phases of the moon seem to have an effect on the output.

Usual problem ko is too much contrast on the final output, and a usually cyan-ish color cast. I compensate by narrowing down the histogram and by adjusting the color balance a bit.

I *might* buy myself a colorimeter kit but until I can make money out of my hobby that's a long way off. :)

*Sigh* :) So far I've had more predictable results with dye sub printers but medyo mahal nga lang.

@Jan
What dye sub printer are you using?

Here is what I feel is a good workflow for printing at digital labs.

1) Calibrate your monitor- if you don't you have no chance. But as Louie A mentioned above, not every calibration setting will get you exactly what you want. Much depends on paper white and viewing light. However, you still need to calibrate to have a chance.

2) Choose a lab that supports icc profiles.

3) When editing your photos, make sure that all significant areas of your image fall within 20 and 240 when editing in RGB. If you have shadow detail that you want to preserve, make sure that these do not drop below 20. For highlights make sure that they don't go above 240. Unless you go out and start sending test files to your lab, these parameters should be fine.

4) Soft Proof using the digital labs icc profile. If the profile is accurate, should give you a fair indication of what your final print will look like. Go back and make some tweaks to your image if needed.

5) Convert to Profile- Fuji Frontiers and Noritsu machines do not support input profiles so that means you will have to convert your file to the icc profile of your lab. Do this by going to Edit>Convert to Profile> Lab Profile. Check Relative Colorimetric and Black Point Compensation.

6) Resample your image- Fuji Frontiers if I recall correctly are set to 300 ppi. That means you should be sending the machine files that are 300 ppi. If you want say an 8x10 that would mean a 2400 x 3000 pixel file. You do this to avoid cropping. Noritsu machines differ in resolution. (Edwin Hermoso if you read this please help). I think you will only know the final resolution of a Noritsu machine after sending it an image.

7) Save your file without the icc profile. Frontiers and Noritsu's don't recognize icc profiles so you should save the file without a profile. What you have done in step 6 above is converted all the numbers in your editing color space (Adobe RGB or sRGB) to the color space of your printer. You can save as JPEG. Use Baseline Standard.

8) Tell the operator not to touch the file.

9) Have a couple of Tanduay Cokes and cross your fingers.

@Jan
What dye sub printer are you using?

Believe it or not, yung mga Kodak kiosks :) P20 per 4x6. Print quality varies (very) slightly and it seems color gamut is not as wide as inkjet but I find them far more predictable than minilabs.

Just an update. Had a few prints made at my suki minilab this afternoon. Good color balance, just slightly oversaturated. I always include a test image with each batch of prints.

I just finished reading Jun Lee's frustration with mini lab printing. That is partly the reason why I've resorted to printing on a desktop inkjet printer as often as I can :D

Of course, some guys like Nick Tuason have printers attached to their computers that won't fit on a desk :D

'color is off... way off... brown lips instead of pink? too dark...' just some of the problems i've had with commercial printing.
makes me wanna shoot film, have the roll scanned and the negs printed. easier but more expensive... most of my shots go online and i rarely have to make prints so i'm happy jsut as long as i don't have to print.

I believe lab printing has its benefits. Its much much cheaper than inkjet printing that is for sure. Jo A. and I have this thing for experimenting with media and that's why we are inkjet fanatics but for those starting out, lab printing should be your first step. Machines such as the Frontiers, Noritsus, and KIS machines print at a very high quality and like printing inkjet, you just need to find the workflow.

Its common for people to keep their images on line rather than have a hard copy in the digital age. We may all have different view points here. In my opinion, photography is about the final product---the Print. Photo capture and editing are just half the battle.

But most one hour photolab scans don't actually show the real beauty of an image shot on film.

I think that its sad if you don't regularly print. The print is bound to be more archival than the digital data in the long run :D

'color is off... way off... brown lips instead of pink? too dark...' just some of the problems i've had with commercial printing.
makes me wanna shoot film, have the roll scanned and the negs printed. easier but more expensive... most of my shots go online and i rarely have to make prints so i'm happy jsut as long as i don't have to print.

First time to use a lab print (for a 4r size), Tried Digital print in Market2, my pics comes out naturally, especially the lips, red green so natural. Jus sit down w the operator they have a calibrated screen you can adjust and make a test print. just use RGB. though it appears diffrnt on my PC (darker) we make adjustment na lang, coz different calibration.

Calibrate your pc (gamma) i use RGB.

In an ideal world, we would all have calibrated displays, all our source files would have embedded profiles and mini labs would supply us with accurate ICC profiles.

The only thing left for us to do would be to hand our digital files to the mini-lab and tell them to print our images without any correction - and we would be able to do this all with confidence. :D