Good Day? I just recently did my first printing with digiprint... I am planning to print at least 40 pieces of 12x18 print size, specialy with their current promo of print 1 get another 1 print for free.. So i say, I will try a sample print, which I did last friday Sept. 19, 2008.. Unfortunately my print came out so dark? What should I do? Should I bring it back? Do you do re-prints? Thank You... GOD BLESS

Hi Marcos,

I am not from Digiprint but I have experienced the "darkening effect" before and I can say that most often that not, our perception that Digiprint printed the wrong colors is brought about by uncalibrated displays.

Uncalibrated displays tend to be brighter thus if you compare an image from an uncalibrated display vs a print from Digiprint, the print would turn out darker.

Since my monitor is not calibrated, when I go to Digiprint's outlets, I check out my photos on their monitors, which are calibrated. This way, I am ensured that what I see (on their monitor) is what I get. Of course, you have to allow for matte paper which will darken your photo a bit so I overexpose a bit when I print on matte.

In the rare occasion that the photos still come out dark, I ask Digiprint to reprint it at no charge and they do. Now that's good service! :)

Can one ask Digiprint to adjust the density?

Since my monitor is not calibrated, when I go to Digiprint's outlets, I check out my photos on their monitors, which are calibrated. This way, I am ensured that what I see (on their monitor) is what I get. Of course, you have to allow for matte paper which will darken your photo a bit so I overexpose a bit when I print on matte.

In the rare occasion that the photos still come out dark, I ask Digiprint to reprint it at no charge and they do. Now that's good service! :)

A few points:

1) It is useless to view images on a calibrated and profiled display if you are using a program that doesn't recognize color profiles (i.e. Microsoft Picture & Fax Viewer, etc.). It might not matter though if your files are in sRGB.

2) Who said that matte paper darken's the image? :D What might be of more significance is your choice of rendering intent when viewing the image. What rendering intent did you select?

3) Calibrated and profiled displays still won't show you how the images will appear once printed if you don't softproof.

4) Miguel will have to chime in on this one.

@ Miguel, are all the displays at your different outlets calibrated and profiled? Or just the displays at your main lab? :D

Cheers!

Jo Avila

P.S.

You overexpose while shooting to compensate for matte? Or are you adjusting the image to make it brighter when you print on matte?

Thank you for your responsed guys, well actually I made a print of this already from other company that no need to be mentioned, it came out as I wanted, I went yesterday to their branch here in SM Taytay, and we look at in their monitor and it seems that Jo have a point that maybe not all their computer are calibrated, because when we view the image, its ok, well.. the staff are very helpfull and very accomodating specially Dennis, the guy that help with it, and they get the prints and promise to send the better or the right prints...

So will see maybe tommorrow or saturday what comes out... Thank you and GOD BLESS....

The simplest thing to do is to first calibrate and profile your display on a regular basis.

Keep your files in sRGB and send them to Digiprint for printing.

Tell them print as is (I'm assuming it will be printed at the main lab and not on inkjet within store premises).

The print should then be a close match to what you saw on your display :D

Cheers!

Jo Avila

Thanks for your points, Jo. This printing newbie appreciates it. I'm thinking of finally buying a high-spec Pixma printer and going to one of your printing workshops. My replies to your comments below in yellow.

At the end of the day, my primitive method of viewing my photos on the Digiprint monitors work 99% of the time and when it doesn't, Digiprint replaces my photos. But your comments bear merit. Maybe I've just been lucky. As my printing needs increase with my photography sideline business, I am grateful for your comments. I am definitely reexamining my workflow. :)
/winston

A few points:

1) It is useless to view images on a calibrated and profiled display if you are using a program that doesn't recognize color profiles (i.e. Microsoft Picture & Fax Viewer, etc.). It might not matter though if your files are in sRGB.
- Doesn't Photoshop qualify as a program that recognizes color profiles?

2) Who said that matte paper darken's the image? :D What might be of more significance is your choice of rendering intent when viewing the image. What rendering intent did you select?
- Hmmm. At least two of Digiprint's staffers have told me that matte paper darkens the image. Please refresh my memory, what do you mean by rendering intent?

3) Calibrated and profiled displays still won't show you how the images will appear once printed if you don't softproof.
- What do you mean by softproof, please?

4) Miguel will have to chime in on this one.

@ Miguel, are all the displays at your different outlets calibrated and profiled? Or just the displays at your main lab? :D
- The Digiprint people at the outlets (I go to Glorieta, Makati Cinema Square and SM Megamall) tell me that their displays are calibrated. Miguel, please confirm.

Cheers!

Jo Avila

P.S.

You overexpose while shooting to compensate for matte? Or are you adjusting the image to make it brighter when you print on matte?
- I stand corrected. I shoot for perfect exporsure and pp the brightness when I print on matte. :)

A question from a printing noob: won't we get darker prints if we don't use the correct paper? specifically in this case, printing on less glossy paper when the profile is for ultra glossy?

1) Yes, Photoshop is a color-savvy program. It does recognize color profiles. But that isn't enough of an assurance that the print and the screen will be a close match. The display (at the very least) has to be calibrated and profiled regularly.

2) Matte paper tends to dull the colors and lowers the contrast of the image. Glossy makes the colors pop and adds a bit of punch to the image.

3) The color gamut of the file is different from the color gamut of what your choice of printer and paper can handle. The act of making one color gamut fit another is called gamut mapping. The method that you choose to make it fit is rendering intent (i.e. Perceptual, Relative Colorimetric, etc.).

Softproofing is a Photoshop feature that allows you to see on your display how the image will look once printed. There are three basic things that have to be present for this feature to work with a high degree of accuracy:

a) A properly calibrated and profiled display.

b) A source color space (the embedded/assigned/tagged/enabled color profile of the digital image).

c) A destination color space (the color profile for the printer and paper of your choice).

Your choice of rendering intent using the same color profile affects the image. Perceptual will make the image appear brighter. Relative Colormetric does make the shadow areas of the image appear to lose a bit of richness.

4) A better question would be how they calibrate and profile their displays at the outlets that you mentioned. Calibrating the display is useless without creating a profile for it.

Some people claim they are calibrating their display when all that they are doing is just fudging about with Adobe Gamma :D

Cheers!

Jo Avila

P.S.

My students and I are holding another Print Day event at my studio tonight. SMS me for the details if you wish to attend. :D It's just going to be a long night of color management, printing and post processing.

Thanks for your points, Jo. This printing newbie appreciates it. I'm thinking of finally buying a high-spec Pixma printer and going to one of your printing workshops. My replies to your comments below in yellow.

At the end of the day, my primitive method of viewing my photos on the Digiprint monitors work 99% of the time and when it doesn't, Digiprint replaces my photos. But your comments bear merit. Maybe I've just been lucky. As my printing needs increase with my photography sideline business, I am grateful for your comments. I am definitely reexamining my workflow. :)
/winston

A few points:

1) It is useless to view images on a calibrated and profiled display if you are using a program that doesn't recognize color profiles (i.e. Microsoft Picture & Fax Viewer, etc.). It might not matter though if your files are in sRGB.
- Doesn't Photoshop qualify as a program that recognizes color profiles?

2) Who said that matte paper darken's the image? :D What might be of more significance is your choice of rendering intent when viewing the image. What rendering intent did you select?
- Hmmm. At least two of Digiprint's staffers have told me that matte paper darkens the image. Please refresh my memory, what do you mean by rendering intent?

3) Calibrated and profiled displays still won't show you how the images will appear once printed if you don't softproof.
- What do you mean by softproof, please?

4) Miguel will have to chime in on this one.

@ Miguel, are all the displays at your different outlets calibrated and profiled? Or just the displays at your main lab? :D
- The Digiprint people at the outlets (I go to Glorieta, Makati Cinema Square and SM Megamall) tell me that their displays are calibrated. Miguel, please confirm.

Cheers!

Jo Avila

P.S.

You overexpose while shooting to compensate for matte? Or are you adjusting the image to make it brighter when you print on matte?
- I stand corrected. I shoot for perfect exporsure and pp the brightness when I print on matte. :)

A question from a printing noob: won't we get darker prints if we don't use the correct paper? specifically in this case, printing on less glossy paper when the profile is for ultra glossy?

Softproofing in Photoshop should give you a good approximation of how the image will look once printed.

What really screws up the image during printing is using an incorrect or inaccurate color profile for the printer and the paper.

Cheers!

Jo Avila

Thanks for the explanation and the invite, Jo. I must admit some of it is still over my head and that's why I should do your printing workshop. But I think tonight is family time. Sigh.

1) Yes, Photoshop is a color-savvy program. It does recognize color profiles. But that isn't enough of an assurance that the print and the screen will be a close match. The display (at the very least) has to be calibrated and profiled regularly.

2) Matte paper tends to dull the colors and lowers the contrast of the image. Glossy makes the colors pop and adds a bit of punch to the image.

3) The color gamut of the file is different from the color gamut of what your choice of printer and paper can handle. The act of making one color gamut fit another is called gamut mapping. The method that you choose to make it fit is rendering intent (i.e. Perceptual, Relative Colorimetric, etc.).

Softproofing is a Photoshop feature that allows you to see on your display how the image will look once printed. There are three basic things that have to be present for this feature to work with a high degree of accuracy:

a) A properly calibrated and profiled display.

b) A source color space (the embedded/assigned/tagged/enabled color profile of the digital image).

c) A destination color space (the color profile for the printer and paper of your choice).

Your choice of rendering intent using the same color profile affects the image. Perceptual will make the image appear brighter. Relative Colormetric does make the shadow areas of the image appear to lose a bit of richness.

4) A better question would be how they calibrate and profile their displays at the outlets that you mentioned. Calibrating the display is useless without creating a profile for it.

Some people claim they are calibrating their display when all that they are doing is just fudging about with Adobe Gamma :D

Cheers!

Jo Avila

P.S.

My students and I are holding another Print Day event at my studio tonight. SMS me for the details if you wish to attend. :D It's just going to be a long night of color management, printing and post processing.

Thanks for the explanation and the invite, Jo. I must admit some of it is still over my head and that's why I should do your printing workshop. But I think tonight is family time. Sigh.

Check out this image:

http://web.me.com/misterkodaker/Jo_Avila/Blog/Entries/2008/7/13_Profiling_the_Canon_Pixma_iP4500.html

We printed on three different paper surfaces.

I had to adjust brightness of the image when we printed on Fine Art Photo Rag. We made the image darker (Photo Rag is a matte surface).

The image was adjusted to be darker because I opted to use Perceptual as my rendering intent :D

Cheers!

Jo Avila

It just occurred to me that assigning the incorrect color profile might cause the image to darken.

But converting from one color space to another doesn't usually produce such an effect.

Cheers!

Jo Avila

Most if not all our monitors are calibrated.

Thanks for your points, Jo. This printing newbie appreciates it. I'm thinking of finally buying a high-spec Pixma printer and going to one of your printing workshops. My replies to your comments below in yellow.

At the end of the day, my primitive method of viewing my photos on the Digiprint monitors work 99% of the time and when it doesn't, Digiprint replaces my photos. But your comments bear merit. Maybe I've just been lucky. As my printing needs increase with my photography sideline business, I am grateful for your comments. I am definitely reexamining my workflow. :)
/winston

A few points:

1) It is useless to view images on a calibrated and profiled display if you are using a program that doesn't recognize color profiles (i.e. Microsoft Picture & Fax Viewer, etc.). It might not matter though if your files are in sRGB.
- Doesn't Photoshop qualify as a program that recognizes color profiles?

2) Who said that matte paper darken's the image? :D What might be of more significance is your choice of rendering intent when viewing the image. What rendering intent did you select?
- Hmmm. At least two of Digiprint's staffers have told me that matte paper darkens the image. Please refresh my memory, what do you mean by rendering intent?

3) Calibrated and profiled displays still won't show you how the images will appear once printed if you don't softproof.
- What do you mean by softproof, please?

4) Miguel will have to chime in on this one.

@ Miguel, are all the displays at your different outlets calibrated and profiled? Or just the displays at your main lab? :D
- The Digiprint people at the outlets (I go to Glorieta, Makati Cinema Square and SM Megamall) tell me that their displays are calibrated. Miguel, please confirm.

Cheers!

Jo Avila

P.S.

You overexpose while shooting to compensate for matte? Or are you adjusting the image to make it brighter when you print on matte?
- I stand corrected. I shoot for perfect exporsure and pp the brightness when I print on matte. :)

Huh... im planning send my layout of coffee table book to digiprint, but seems like there's a technical problem! I hope they could fix it asap..
I agree with mr. jo avila's comments...

2) Who said that matte paper darken's the image? What might be of more significance is your choice of rendering intent when viewing the image. What rendering intent did you select?-Jo Avila

I have my EPSON photo printer and i also did some calibration on both software and hardware and NOT on the image adjustment. Image adjustment is the last thing i did ONLY- if i wanted some adjustment from my original shots.

Can i ask also to Digiprint to pls. post what color profile and workflow are you using, or do you change or convert the profile of the image used by your customers.

Thanks!

Photo lab machines don't recognize color profiles.

The safest things to do are either:

1) Calibrate and profile your display - and then convert the color profiles of your images to the destination color space of the lab and the paper; or

2) Calibrate and profile your display - and just keep your files in sRGB or convert them to sRGB before sending them off to Digiprint.

You will have to calibrate and profile your display.

But desktop inkjet printers don't really need any calibration if they are well-behaved and stable. This usually means that all nozzles are firing correctly (none are clogged) and you are using original ink and media. You could probably profile the output of your inkjet printer. But that is usually done if you feel that the generic or canned profiles that came with your inkjet printer are inaccurate for your needs.

Cheers!

Jo Avila

Huh... im planning send my layout of coffee table book to digiprint, but seems like there's a technical problem! I hope they could fix it asap..
I agree with mr. jo avila's comments...

2) Who said that matte paper darken's the image? What might be of more significance is your choice of rendering intent when viewing the image. What rendering intent did you select?-Jo Avila

I have my EPSON photo printer and i also did some calibration on both software and hardware and NOT on the image adjustment. Image adjustment is the last thing i did ONLY- if i wanted some adjustment from my original shots.

Can i ask also to Digiprint to pls. post what color profile and workflow are you using, or do you change or convert the profile of the image used by your customers.

Thanks!

Most if not all our monitors are calibrated.

Hmmm... then the image should only darken if they wrong color profile is assigned (when what should be done is to convert from source to destination color space).

@ Winston

When they softproof the images for you in Photoshop, are they using:

1) Edit>Assign Profile>Profile>Matte + Rendering Intent; or

2) View> Custom Setup> Device to Simulate> Matte + Rendering Intent?

Cheers!

Jo Avila

Photo lab machines don't recognize color profiles.

The safest things to do are either:

1) Calibrate and profile your display - and then convert the color profiles of your images to the destination color space of the lab and the paper; or

2) Calibrate and profile your display - and just keep your files in sRGB or convert them to sRGB before sending them off to Digiprint.

You will have to calibrate and profile your display.

But desktop inkjet printers don't really need any calibration if they are well-behaved and stable. This usually means that all nozzles are firing correctly (none are clogged) and you are using original ink and media. You could probably profile the output of your inkjet printer. But that is usually done if you feel that the generic or canned profiles that came with your inkjet printer are inaccurate for your needs.

Cheers!

Jo Avila

Thanks JO, for the info...

So, that's how it works on LAB... meaning even if you did any calibration at home before sending your digital file to digiprint, it won't work coz lab machines don't recognize color profiles. So the safest things to do is just keep your files in sRGB. Right?

maybe Digiprint can post more detail guidelines and workflow for their customers so at least we should know how to prepare our digital files before sending it to their lab for final printing.

Thanks JO, for the info...

So, that's how it works on LAB... meaning even if you did any calibration at home before sending your digital file to digiprint, it won't work coz lab machines don't recognize color profiles. So the safest things to do is just keep your files in sRGB. Right?

maybe Digiprint can post more detail guidelines and workflow for their customers so at least we should know how to prepare our digital files before sending it to their lab for final printing.

Yup. sRGB is usually the safest color space to use in certain situations. It isn't the best. But it is the safest. :D

Lab machines assume that the RGB values of the colors of a digital image have already been converted to the destination color space.

That's why one of the worst things you can do is to send your Adobe RGB files to a one hour lab for printing :D

Cheers!

Jo Avila

Guys, always remember that the display doesn't affect the image.

We are only calibrating and profiling our displays in order to get an accurate preview of the image.

What affects the image is the consequences of our actions based on what we saw on our display monitors.

An incorrect preview of the image leads to an incorrect action during post processing.

GIGO (Garbage In Garbage Out).

Cheers!

Jo Avila