now, i'm not really sure if i should post this here or over in the sports photography section. hope the resident sports photogs here, along with all the other more business-savvy colleagues here, can help shed some light.

i've been into sports photography ever since i got my existing telephoto lens last year. what started with our company's beach volleyball tournament has since "grown" to include marathons, pbl games, and recently, the ongoing uaap mens basketball matches (after which i intend to try out tennis, volleyball, and football).

all this time, my wife has been super supportive of my hobby, "allowing" me to upgrade camera bodies to one that offers a higher fps - though i haven't told her of my intention to upgrade to an L-telephoto soon.

recently, she's been asking me about getting some ROI for all the sports photos i've managed to take over the past several months. she's heard of the many compliments i've received from friends and colleagues at work over how good my shots were that she pointed out the possibility of selling these shots and finally finding the means to "support" my hobby (or should i say, passion?).

what do you guys think, does a sports photog have a chance at selling his photos and earning of them? a photog friend of mine pointed out that in the US there is a market for such a field, but he can't say that the same opportunity exists here.

what do you guys think?

and this may have been covered in one of the threads here, what is really involved when you sell your photos, whether to a publication, company, or an individual? i mean, there's the matter of pricing, retaining copyright, maximum number of prints allowable, contracts, and other related details that i'm, honestly, still in the dark with.

thanks in advance!:)

Mark,

Did you established some networking during those times while you were taking pictures? I did the same route as you did by volunteering with various known organizations. However, as a volunteer I had complete access to the venues and all my pictures were credited.

Next month I will be covering the Chicago Marathon as the event photog for the organizing group to document their volunteers at the finish line! I got this gig through contacts when I did the Chicago Avon Walk three months ago. Last week I shot the Quebec marathon due to my contacts at the Chicago marathon.

Get your contacts working and before you know it, other folks will sort you out to take more pictures. My next objective is to contact the Boston Marathon group which is the grand daddy of them of all. After you get your credentials then start asking for potential fees.

Hope this helps.

By the way, I don't sell my pics since everything is given back to the company sponsor. It's really more of the experience and meeting a lot of nice people.

NormT

i guess you really have to network so as to get the ROI that you expect from your photos. right now, there's no niche for sports photography as a business here in the philippines. most of the people covering the sports events (basketball, golf, futbol) are basically media people connected with the national dailies.

with your network, you can get gigs to shoot for mags and get paid for the photos submitted :) hopefully sooner or later, there will be a niche for sports photography here in the country so that we can get the ROI for the photos we took :)

I don't think Sports photography is really big here in the Philippines as compared to wedding or advertising photography.

I agree with Spam, most of the sports events are already covered by fotogs doing regular rounds for several National paper.

I remember Vic Icasas (also a DPP member) held a talk at our office to discuss sports photography. He has been covering UAAP basketball for a Green Archer-related website, and he said that he spent a small fortune on his gears, shot thousands of images for the DLSU and DLSU fan sites (and I have to say his images are kick-ass), yet he said he hasn't really made any 'real' money on his hobby...

You can always try to make it big in sports photography here in the Philippines, but again please leave some margin for disappointment. :)

i know photographers who are very passionate about sports photography. however, if you ask any professional, they will say the same thing. "the money is in advertising". im not saying walang pera sa sports, or magazines or weddings (which is probably 2nd). they just all agree that its the easiest way to earn from photography.

i guess you really have to network so as to get the ROI that you expect from your photos. right now, there's no niche for sports photography as a business here in the philippines. most of the people covering the sports events (basketball, golf, futbol) are basically media people connected with the national dailies.

with your network, you can get gigs to shoot for mags and get paid for the photos submitted :) hopefully sooner or later, there will be a niche for sports photography here in the country so that we can get the ROI for the photos we took :)

Spam, when Tata gets famous, you'll make money from your football shots. :D

actually that's the sad part of sports photography in the Philippines. YOu spend a lot but the monetary returns are very lil to none. Even photogs in newspapers have to juggle doin a variety of news reports first before they cover a sporting event.

actually that's the sad part of sports photography in the Philippines. YOu spend a lot but the monetary returns are very lil to none. Even photogs in newspapers have to juggle doin a variety of news reports first before they cover a sporting event.

which leads us to the sorry fact that sports is NADA in the eyes of our government. and we ask why we keep coming up with embarrasing NADA olympics after olympics...

@Mark, read between the lines. Your wife is 'worried' about da hobby. Given the sorry state of commercial sports in the country, I think you should go shoot bread-and-butter events like weddings, baptisms, parties, etc... to get that ROI. AND shoot sports on the side because that keeps your hobby going.

Separate the hobby from the work for now.

That's what I did when I decided to stop weddings for pay and just shoot weddings to relieve stress (stress of having to earn money).

first of all, thanks for all the honest replies to my query.

i now have some understanding of why sports photography hasn't really picked up here, as it has in other countries - with the disappointing state of our own sports development programs (as seen in our recent olympic "performance"), the context isn't exactly a perfect "breeding ground" for excellent sports photogs.

with the high investment needed to excel in this specific field (it's probably the most expensive one out there, at least in terms of equipment, eh?), locals have very little chance of really getting good ROI, especially if they've already bought that 500t tele lens. i really envy those guys shooting for cnnsi.com...:Angry:

@spam: i see the value in having a network, especially in this kind of a field. unfortunately, my network's pretty shallow right now, if that's the right word to describe it. while i have been grateful to th epeople who've seen, and complimented, on the photos i managed to post here, on multiply, or facebook, that has yet to translate to an tangible network.

i marvel at the sports shots that people like yourself, philip sison, nono felipe, tj parpan, and sir vic icasas (to name a few) have taken. networking with them, however, is a different story, one i'm kinda still hesistant to do since i'm not yet satisfied with the quality of my current output (not to mention equipment). high expectations of myself, you see.

@jerry: i'll think very seriously about your suggestion, mainly because its a very realistic one to consider right now. any photo field you get into, even though it's kinda far off from where you originally wanted to specialize in, will only make you a better photog in the future. plus, there's that chance of developing an even wider network of contacts in the process.

if ever there's an initiative to help develop sports photography here in the future, i'll definitely sign up for that.:)

this thread got me thinking....

Aside from Golf Punk, is there a local sports glossy magazine? Or sports oriented website na hindi blog/forum?

Spam, when Tata gets famous, you'll make money from your football shots. :D

@winston - unless she plays in the states professionally :D hehehehehe

Mark - I've been at this for the past five years. The only ROI in my book is a trophy back in Loyola Heights. Depends on how you see "ROI" actually. It isn't just about monetary ROI.

My wife probably wondered the same thing as your wife did. When she sees me happily processing my photos after a great game - she knows that I've had my "ROI" already.

Will entertain your application after the basketball season. Keep on shooting. One Big Fight!

My wife probably wondered the same thing as your wife did. When she sees me happily processing my photos after a great game - she knows that I've had my "ROI" already.


this is so correct!

Mark - I've been at this for the past five years. The only ROI in my book is a trophy back in Loyola Heights. Depends on how you see "ROI" actually. It isn't just about monetary ROI.

My wife probably wondered the same thing as your wife did. When she sees me happily processing my photos after a great game - she knows that I've had my "ROI" already.

Will entertain your application after the basketball season. Keep on shooting. One Big Fight!

Amen on this Nono :)

this thread got me thinking....

Aside from Golf Punk, is there a local sports glossy magazine? Or sports oriented website na hindi blog/forum?

I think Golf Digest is a direct competitor of GPP, thing is, their phorographers here are basically old farts who work for the dailies and think that they're GOD's in the fairways...

this thread got me thinking....

Aside from Golf Punk, is there a local sports glossy magazine? Or sports oriented website na hindi blog/forum?

Men's Health?

I don't know if Metro Active is still around. It would be nice to have Sports Illustrated but at the same time sad since sports in this country is all BBB (Boxing, Billiards and Basketball). Beijing 08 anyone?

The sports magazines here are very diverse like Scooterista, Urge or something.

and this may have been covered in one of the threads here, what is really involved when you sell your photos, whether to a publication, company, or an individual? i mean, there's the matter of pricing, retaining copyright, maximum number of prints allowable, contracts, and other related details that i'm, honestly, still in the dark with.

thanks in advance!:)

You may want to ask Aaron Vicencio (http://aaronvicencio.wordpress.com/) he's currently conducting workshops on Sports Photography

Mark,

Did you established some networking during those times while you were taking pictures? I did the same route as you did by volunteering with various known organizations. However, as a volunteer I had complete access to the venues and all my pictures were credited.

Next month I will be covering the Chicago Marathon as the event photog for the organizing group to document their volunteers at the finish line! I got this gig through contacts when I did the Chicago Avon Walk three months ago. Last week I shot the Quebec marathon due to my contacts at the Chicago marathon.

Get your contacts working and before you know it, other folks will sort you out to take more pictures. My next objective is to contact the Boston Marathon group which is the grand daddy of them of all. After you get your credentials then start asking for potential fees.

Hope this helps.

By the way, I don't sell my pics since everything is given back to the company sponsor. It's really more of the experience and meeting a lot of nice people.

NormT


What do the organizations or the sponsors do with the photos you submit? Because if they are using them for any type of commercial purpose, such as advertising or publication (internally OR externally), you have a right to be paid for them. Gaining experience and meeting people is all well and good, but the fact remains that you are offering your services and skills to these people, and giving your photos away undermines the efforts of our industry. It's hard for working pro photographers to compete with people who are willing to give away their work for free or at prices that are below industry standards.

It looks like the sports photography field can be a blue ocean waiting to be developed as a market. Probably the reason it has not taken off is because no one has focused on shooting sports to sell to this waiting market - the athletes and their families, the sports teams, the companies into sports, schools, etc. Since the photographers who regularly do sports photography are media photographers, they get their pay from media. There should be residual sales from selling directly to the above mentioned market segment, but media photographers probably have not thought of marketing to them, or because they work alone, they can't. It's too much work for one man.

I agree that the sports market in other countries, especially the U.S., is much bigger than in the Philippines, but it is not non-existent. I believe it just has not been tapped.

Unfortunately, sports photographs have not been well regarded, and therefore have not fetched "good" prices. But that was how it was even in weddings until photographers like Patrick Uy and Pilar Tuason gave prestige to the profession. Same way with Rupert Jacinto with portraits (and Bob Razon for the earlier generations). The country needs a great sports photographer who also does a great job of marketing this specialization - then the market will grow, and well-paid sports photographers will emerge.

Just my thoughts.

i think that's what we're trying to do in www.fabilioh.com

Harvey - as Aly pointed out, that is exaclty what we are doing. The main reason we setup shop as the Ateneo Sports Shooters is to reach out to a very niched market, the Ateneo community. We shoot with this market in mind and derive our income from servicing this market not just by selling photos but a business model that thrives under the conditions that this market can give. Over the years we have attracted huge volumes of traffic, sales, and sponsorship. It also helps that we as photographers are part of the same market - thus we know what the market demands at different points of the season. It's grown to be an ecosystem already over the years.

hmmm an opinion from another country i am used to take pictures of sports events, but at the end of the day if i do not capture pictures from other events i could not survive. it is the mixture which guaratnees me the ROIS.

but i can also tell you, if you start getting involved with prof. sportsphotography you will never compute the value of ROIS compared of the time you spend :Grin:

It is how I have gotten most of my income. Being said that is it a niche market, you also get clients that appreciate how you do the job. As a professional and as a friend. you develop connections and relationships because of how small the number of sports photographers there are in the market.

I have been shooting sports professionally for the past 4 years and counting. Sure I have travel assignments to augment my income but sports makes up for most of it. There's a market for it, but it is not instant. That being said, you must have a love for what you are doing. Sports photography gear is not cheap. That is why I dont dabble in fields of photography that i know i dont have a passion for. Sports is my passion. I want to be there when the Philippines wins its first gold medal in the Olympics, I want to be there when Ateneo wins a championship, I want to be there when my team in the ABL wins a game. I don't want to be there for the personal glory nor the dreams of being paid like in the states. But i want to be there to be as a medium to tell the story of national, school, personal heroes.

The pay will eventually come. I believe that there are certain magazines, sports brands and organizations that cater to this market. I am happy with what I have done for the past 4 years.

Harvey - as Aly pointed out, that is exaclty what we are doing. The main reason we setup shop as the Ateneo Sports Shooters is to reach out to a very niched market, the Ateneo community. We shoot with this market in mind and derive our income from servicing this market not just by selling photos but a business model that thrives under the conditions that this market can give. Over the years we have attracted huge volumes of traffic, sales, and sponsorship. It also helps that we as photographers are part of the same market - thus we know what the market demands at different points of the season. It's grown to be an ecosystem already over the years.

Congratulations, then. :) I wasn't aware of your group, but now I am. It's great to know that you're doing very well. :)

There's a market for it, but it is not instant. That being said, you must have a love for what you are doing.

I second that, Aaron. :-)

me three :)

Will entertain your application after the basketball season. Keep on shooting. One Big Fight!

no problem with this, nono! it's a good thing we're still at the start of this year's uaap season, so there'll be many more sporting events to shoot. i guess your group will be in full force for this saturday's game, eh?

but going back to the topic at hand, it's is good that there is already a very well-established photography community like the ateneo sports shooters. i've seen int he sports section here that there is already one representing feu, and up has their own version as well. this is also one of the main reasons why i voiced my intention to join the ASS - not only do you get to perform a service for your alma mater (OBF!), but you also stand to gain from the camaraderie and potential networks.

i still have high hopes that a sports photo market can still be created here, even if its starts with what tammy correctly pointed out, the three Bs.:Grin:

@aaron: maybe you can provide a liitle bit more detail on how you started, and even sustaining your profession in such an untapped field.

in the end, i go back to what nono pointed out, coz i can also relate to it - my personal ROI is after viewing the images on my computer and finding out that i managed to capture a specific piece of the action exactly how i experienced it on court - plus there's the compliments i receive from the people who manage to view it.

but then, of course, it won't hurt to have a financial "compliment" to go along with that, eh?:)

George,


The organizations that I have worked with are all non-profit. They use sports events to add funding to their cause. I have a full-time day job. I don't get access to national events if you are not with a daily newspaper. So what's the next move? I contact these organizations to compliment their professional photographers they already hired. I take pictures because I love it!

Is it expensive? hell yes. Is it tiring? more so when you are running in the middle of the day to catch the "shot" with the star athletes. The sponsors, they feed me, they treat me like I am one of their own.
The pros, they take no breaks. They leave after the shots are done. I linger for hours to take more pictures that I don't need but people are asking me to take their pictures. Why because its a passion, its catching the moment when it happens. This is my personal ROI. I know my pictures are being published and use for PR purposes as we speak. You can't compete with it nor put a cost to it. It's a volunteer thing. At the end I am not short changing the industry. I am challenging the pros for them to do a better job than we do or else they will keep calling me.

Mark keep on shooting, remember Van Gogh. Did you think the towns folks ever imagine the crazy guy with a bum ear will have paintings selling in millions? Hang in there! It will come soon.

NormT

@Mark It's basically the same with any other kind of business model.
The more time you spend shooting, the more you get better at it and consequently, you get noticed doing it. I do not claim a monopoly on this field. There are others who make a living out of sports photography. I stated out doing bit assignments for various magazines also getting assigned to do work in the provinces also helps, because i get to expand my network; do what i love and get to shoot sports and travel, my two favorite things to do.

Being a capitalist will take you only so far. Passion to be; my Atenean friend.

George,

Mark keep on shooting, remember Van Gogh. Did you think the towns folks ever imagine the crazy guy with a bum ear will have paintings selling in millions? Hang in there! It will come soon.

NormT

To photographers interested in finding or creating a sports photo market:

Why wait when you can make it happen? Van Gogh's paintings sold only after his death. If I remember my art history correctly, he never sold even one painting while he was alive. Hopefully his heirs benefitted from the posthumous sales of his paintings, or is it just the collectors and the art dealers who raked in the millions?

Don't get me wrong. Photographers need to be passionate about their work, and if you have a dayjob that you equally love, then by all means, stay a hobbyist. There are easier ways to earn money than from photography, but for those of us who are in professional photography (by professional, I just mean we get paid to shoot), it's a double treat to have photography as a hobby and as a job.

I believe the question here is about a sports photo market. Let's help those who are interested to become professional sports photographers to find one, and if there isn't one, then maybe we can offer suggestions on how to create one. :) That's all I was trying to do. Cheers. :)

but then, of course, it won't hurt to have a financial "compliment" to go along with that, eh?:)

Believe me, there is a good financial ROI in the young sports photography market right now. One just has to be creative in creating a business model that thrives. The reality is that you cannot sustain yourself by selling prints. Another probable reality is unless you have a magazine shoot every week, it won't sustain you either. Given those - find out what works and what doesn't. I'm sorry I can't go into specifics right now but you'll find out when you join us.

My point is get creative with your business model. Nowadays one has to think out of the box.

what i'm trying to do right now is to get as much practice as i can, while consciously looking for new opportunities to develop my skills. this involves going beyond "traditional" basketball games.

part of me is kinda glad that the current uaap basketball season is nearing its end - that means that all the other sports out there will soon have their turn in the "limelight". i'm personally interested in shooting the tennis & volleyball games. i guess that one advantage of the former sport is that it's played outdoors, so lighting won't be too much of a problem. i hope my current focal length (70-200) will be enough.

at the end of the day, sports photography will continue to be where my current passion lies. i am still hopeful that its local popularity will increase and that a solid market finally emerges. until that day comes, it's best to be prepared. i'm doing it from a skill approach (coz equipment-wise, i still have a pretty long wishlist - :Grin: hehe).