The business of Photography offers a lot to those who seek to make it their source of income - be it the ONLY source or on the SIDE. But many, and I know a few, who does not seem to know the worth of their own services.

Not knowing the worth of your own services is like punching a hole on the hull of your own ship. Eventually, rather than float, you sink.

I say eventually, because no matter how low you price yourself for the unreasonable sake of getting even more clients will end up as an exercise in futility. I'm sure you'll end up with broken equipment and have no money to replace it.

Goodbye clients.

If you have been doing this business for a period of time and seems to have gone nowhere, or haven't saved enough money for the lenses you NEED, then this thread is for you.

Pricing yourself is important. Business is all about money. Don't get into any business if you intend to lose. Be it your money or your time. So know your own rates.

My dear photogs who have convincing words to tell fellow photogs not to low-ball their rates, let us raise the flags that bring us the food!

1. Price your self like there's no tomorrow. You are a valuable addition to society. Your eyes, your skill, your passion, your taste. Everything about you and your photography is a tangible result that is required and sought after by many, who either does not have the talent or does not have the time. This is an opportunity. So grab it and sincerely lay your cards on the table.

2. Price your self like you would go to a war - and add insurance. you'll never know what you're getting in to, where you're going, what you will be shooting and how you will be shooting it.

3. Price your self the way your clients want you to price them.

All clients requiring photography services have an allotted budget to it. It may be considerable, or money may not be an object, or it may be within reasonable bounds.

Ask. that's all you really need to do.

And it will be given to you.

4. When you don't know how much to charge, let your wife do the talking. If wife was unable to land the project. The client is just going to waste your time. Better spend that time with her.

5. When you think you've overpriced a client, having fluently told them how much you want to be paid. Just SHUT YOUR MOUTH and let the silence do the computing. The client either thinks you have too many clients to take care of, or you do great work, or your a con man.

Don't worry too much. The next photog that the client will go to has read this thread anyway, chances are, he'll over price just the same.

The thing is, as Dominique James would have it his way, compete on QUALITY. Never on PRICE. Do not disgust your fellow photogs. Respect is supreme.

6. An accountant will charge you P30,000 for his signature on an audit and financial statements for 2 hours work. I suggest you START your rates that way too. I did not say END okay. Because a wedding lasts for at least 8 hours. A concert event for at least 5 hours. A product will be advertised for at least a year.

im monitoring this thread, not because it violates any forum rules but i find it truly interesting.

Hey Master Nino. Thanks. Would love to find a few of your commandments forever etched in this "price counselling" thread.

Rather than let the industry rates get banged by a price war that makes no sense and lose a growing clientele to the unapologetic, somehow, a proactive approach into getting the right issues into the mindset of photogs that want to EARN doing photography would be a good topic.

For the betterment of the industry.

Hey Master Nino. Thanks. Would love to find a few of your commandments forever etched in this "price counselling" thread.

Rather than let the industry rates get banged by a price war that makes no sense and lose a growing clientele to the unapologetic, somehow, a proactive approach into getting the right issues into the mindset of photogs that want to EARN doing photography would be a good topic.

For the betterment of the industry.

Sounds like you know what you are talking about. This is also the dillema photographers here in my area are facing and I really don't want to add up to this. TFS.

7. Ever wondered why you, who kicks your own ass, pushing the limits of your own style, giving the clients what they want for the prices that they want it, turning night into day, burning the midnight oil for them, and yet find it hard to upgrade your equipment? or worse, can't afford the pro bodies you SHOULD have because you're a pro?

Then you must be salivating on them that works 10-6 on weekdays only with secretaries and post-processing staff that makes their business worth every lift of their muscles and clicks of their shutters?

Your rates my friend. Change your rates. Follow the pattern of the oil companies' costing strategies. Continually increase, and partially decrease.

Great basic concepts that are logical as well, Marlo :) Worse thing any SERVICE-related business can do is undersell yourself just because of "I'm new at this" reason.

If the average market rate seems "high" for you to charge to your client, then maybe it's time to work on your skills to justify to charge AT LEAST the average market rate...

Just because you don't physically cause any damage or harm by offering photography services, doesn't mean it's that different from a newbie mechanic damaging a car's engine, a newbie doctor from cutting off the wrong organ, or a barber that shaved off your ear.

If you can't do business like a professional, try not to offer your services at all unless you explicitly inform your client that you're really just performing a paid practice session.

Price wars only benefit the customer and not the supplier, and business should always be a 2-way street.

The same thing goes with our business in Manila, when a US-based, locally franchised company started a "rate" for their services, other smaller copy-cats followed suit with substandard quality. When we decided to price ourselves slightly above average rates due to technically superior services, we had to stick with it and not lower the price because we're a newcomer. We know how much our skills and time are worth and we're not willing to let customers undercut our prices, in the end, the customer base grew a lot faster with less "price matching" requests down the road.

I guess every service-based (especially those with little to no inventory) should see pricing the same way, calculate base on YOUR time and skill, not how much others are charging.

Don't insult yourself by pricing yourself too low... Be humble enough to know if you're not capable of charging at least the market rate as well.

7. Ever wondered why you, who kicks your own ass, pushing the limits of your own style, giving the clients what they want for the prices that they want it, turning night into day, burning the midnight oil for them, and yet find it hard to upgrade your equipment? or worse, can't afford the pro bodies you SHOULD have because you're a pro?

Then you must be salivating on them that works 10-6 on weekdays only with secretaries and post-processing staff that makes their business worth every lift of their muscles and clicks of their shutters?

Your rates my friend. Change your rates. Follow the pattern of the oil companies' costing strategies. Continually increase, and partially decrease.

Yes. And I hope we find our way through this bad habit of low pricing. Although, I must say I'm just a rookie and will probably price less than 6k. I assume that is your price?:)

Great basic concepts that are logical as well, Marlo :) Worse thing any SERVICE-related business can do is undersell yourself just because of "I'm new at this" reason.

If the average market rate seems "high" for you to charge to your client, then maybe it's time to work on your skills to justify to charge AT LEAST the average market rate...

Price wars only benefit the customer and not the supplier, and business should always be a 2-way street.

The same thing goes with our business in Manila, when a US-based, locally franchised company started a "rate" for their services, other smaller copy-cats followed suit with substandard quality. When we decided to price ourselves slightly above average rates due to technically superior services, we had to stick with it and not lower the price because we're a newcomer. We know how much our skills and time are worth and we're not willing to let customers undercut our prices, in the end, the customer base grew a lot faster with less "price matching" requests down the road.

I guess every service-based (especially those with little to no inventory) should see pricing the same way, calculate base on YOUR time and skill, not how much others are charging.

Don't insult yourself by pricing yourself too low... Be humble enough to know if you're not capable of charging at least the market rate as well.

Yes sir. My plan is to work my price up and make the client understand the situation. Business is really one hard part for me but I know I'm learning. TFS.:)

8. Ahh, my favorite number. So i'll let you in on a favorite computation.

Who doesn't want a rate that anyone would be comfortable with? The thing is EVERYONE in the business NEEDS to earn, either to spend it for overhead, or capital build up, or equipment upgrade or a vacation or what have you. There is a key to earning RIGHT. Here's an example.

For a wedding project : 8 hours minimum. 14 hours max. Pre-nuptial until event coverage.

Cost of YOUR SELF. Your take home pay : P30,000net
Cost of 2 lighstmen : P8,000
Cost of 2 assistant photogs : P18,000
Cost of transport : P3500.00
Cost of deliverables : photobook, 40 page, 11x14 : P10,000

Subtotal : P69,500.00
Add : Percentage amount for equipment depreciation (12% of subtotal) P8,500
Add : Percentage amount for reasonable income for the business (30% of subtotal) P 20,000

Total price before taxes : P98,000.00

Turns out, a wedding project would be somewhere in this vicinity, while you were "unilaterally" charging your clients P30,000 for an entire project like this and you thought that was enough?!!

Of course, provide discounts. Clients would love you for it. But DO UNDERSTAND, that the discounts you give WILL BE DEDUCTED from YOUR take home pay and not from the studio income or the other items above. This drastically reduces your opportunity to save for upgrades or repairs when the time comes.

When you low ball your rates, you end up having no more money for upgrades and repair. If you break your equipment. You lose your clients.

The idea of GAINING clients when lowballing on costs eventually leads to LOSING them all.

8. Ahh, my favorite number. So i'll let you in on a favorite computation.

Who doesn't want a rate that anyone would be comfortable with? The thing is EVERYONE in the business NEEDS to earn, either to spend it for overhead, or capital build up, or equipment upgrade or a vacation or what have you. There is a key to earning RIGHT. Here's an example.

For a wedding project : 8 hours minimum. 14 hours max. Pre-nuptial until event coverage.

Cost of YOUR SELF. Your take home pay : P30,000net
Cost of 2 lighstmen : P8,000
Cost of 2 assistant photogs : P18,000
Cost of transport : P3500.00
Cost of deliverables : photobook, 40 page, 11x14 : P10,000

Subtotal : P69,500.00
Add : Percentage amount for equipment depreciation (12% of subtotal) P8,500
Add : Percentage amount for reasonable income for the business (30% of subtotal) P 20,000

Total price before taxes : P98,000.00

Turns out, a wedding project would be somewhere in this vicinity, while you were "unilaterally" charging your clients P30,000 for an entire project like this and you thought that was enough?!!

Of course, provide discounts. Clients would love you for it. But DO UNDERSTAND, that the discounts you give WILL BE DEDUCTED from YOUR take home pay and not from the studio income or the other items above. This drastically reduces your opportunity to save for upgrades or repairs when the time comes.

When you low ball your rates, you end up having no more money for upgrades and repair. If you break your equipment. You lose your clients.

The idea of GAINING clients when lowballing on costs eventually leads to LOSING them all.

what a coincidence. 8, 13, and 75 are my favorite numbers.

i wonder how i'm gonna apply that. maybe i should start by blaming those photographers who set the standard of pricing here and work first as apprentice (shakes head).

maybe you should teach this to the club you're starting?

jerwin, substantiate your increase with your output :)

what a coincidence. 8, 13, and 75 are my favorite numbers.

i wonder how i'm gonna apply that. maybe i should start by blaming those photographers who set the standard of pricing here and work first as apprentice (shakes head).

maybe you should teach this to the club you're starting?

Hi there Jerwin, seems like the bait is working.

I don't charge 6k for my services if you want to know. I spend that for food of my staff instead, (A few boxes of pizza, soda and buffalo wings, kulang pa nga.)

As with the club, I didn't start any club. If you meant the Nikon Grey, thats not a club i started, thats the club that you BELONG and CONTINUE to start.

It hasn't lifted off a single inch off the ground if you haven't noticed. HAhahaha.

Stick around. More to come.

jerwin, substantiate your increase with your output :)

Ok I'll try determining how to do that. :D I'll give myself a lot of time for this. Practice is key according to the masters.

jerwin, substantiate your increase with your output :)

This is next.

9. Substantiate your increase with your output

Great basic concepts that are logical as well, Marlo :) Worse thing any SERVICE-related business can do is undersell yourself just because of "I'm new at this" reason.

If the average market rate seems "high" for you to charge to your client, then maybe it's time to work on your skills to justify to charge AT LEAST the average market rate...

Just because you don't physically cause any damage or harm by offering photography services, doesn't mean it's that different from a newbie mechanic damaging a car's engine, a newbie doctor from cutting off the wrong organ, or a barber that shaved off your ear.

If you can't do business like a professional, try not to offer your services at all unless you explicitly inform your client that you're really just performing a paid practice session.

Price wars only benefit the customer and not the supplier, and business should always be a 2-way street.

The same thing goes with our business in Manila, when a US-based, locally franchised company started a "rate" for their services, other smaller copy-cats followed suit with substandard quality. When we decided to price ourselves slightly above average rates due to technically superior services, we had to stick with it and not lower the price because we're a newcomer. We know how much our skills and time are worth and we're not willing to let customers undercut our prices, in the end, the customer base grew a lot faster with less "price matching" requests down the road.

I guess every service-based (especially those with little to no inventory) should see pricing the same way, calculate base on YOUR time and skill, not how much others are charging.

Don't insult yourself by pricing yourself too low... Be humble enough to know if you're not capable of charging at least the market rate as well.

and this is next :

10. If you can't do business like a professional, try not to offer your services at all unless you explicitly inform your client that you're really just performing a paid practice session.
Price wars only benefit the customer and not the supplier, and business should always be a 2-way street.

Hi there Jerwin, seems like the bait is working.

I don't charge 6k for my services if you want to know. I spend that for food of my staff instead, (A few boxes of pizza, soda and buffalo wings, kulang pa nga.)

As with the club, I didn't start any club. If you meant the Nikon Grey, thats not a club i started, thats the club that you BELONG and CONTINUE to start.

It hasn't lifted off a single inch off the ground if you haven't noticed. HAhahaha.

Stick around. More to come.

6k for the staff? I should be your staff! :D

Staying tuned. All ears.

ohhh apologies for butting in so quickly marlo :) please proceed :)

Finally, something good and informative popped up in the forum :) nice post.

6k for the staff? I should be your staff! :D

Staying tuned. All ears.

I knew you'd listen.

This is exactly the mindset that needs to be fed by this thread, and there are many more out there. Come out of the open and begin the transition from just "getting paid" to earning REASONABLY RIGHT.

There is no harm in earning right.
And no harm in admitting you have long discounted your self.

Jerwin here wants to make the change. Let us change the mindset therefore.

The time may have come.

7.Follow the pattern of the oil companies' costing strategies. Continually increase, and partially decrease.

Love this! .. revising my design rate sheet now. :Grin:

Bookmarked.

TFS Sir!

ohhh apologies for butting in so quickly marlo :) please proceed :)

Master Otep, of course you didn't butt. I quoted you on the input, and also Master David Tong afterwards. Inputs are highly sought on the thread. I will just be numbering them as they come along.

DPPers, keep the counsels coming in.

11. The issue of pricing is directly proportional to the issue of delivery.

When you DELIVER results, and clients are satisfied, they "realize" the meaning of your costs. The next project that they give you then becomes a natural reaction to the proportionality equation. When you INTEND to deliver some more, and make the same client SUPREMELY SATISFIED, then you again apply the proportionality equation and INCREASE your rates some more.

This will go on and on and on.

12. Loosing clients based on cost structures are inevitable, BUT temporary.
Loosing clients based on poor performance are deliberate AND permanent.

Nice thread... Having a lot of \"service oriented\" family members (lawyers, auditors, engineers, fashion designers, etc...) their common advice for me is: \"Never undersell yourself.\" True that.

Problem with the photography business in the philippines is that it is a buyer's market. there are just so many photographers to choose from. And the rates are really down. Even wedding photo services are being offered as low as 25k. Why? because of the competition.

Given this scenario, and being a newbie, it is only normal for the newbie to start at the low end of the rates....or even lower just to get initial projects. Im not promoting it though, but I can understand why this is happening. Life here in the phils is not as easy as in other countries. almost everything is being sold at a budget....from goods to services. If you're a newbie in a market like that, I would understand why would you join the price war.

A better alternative to address this is to gather all photographers to form an association that will primarily regulate the market. Or even influence law makers to help regulate and also protect the rights of photographers.

Cheers!

oh no worries marlo :) just respecting the thread :) keep em coming :D unkol basil, you have anything to add?

hmm..very nice indeed and very informative. Thanks Master Marlo for all these words... don't worry I have started to apply what you have said to me and will continue to apply them.

13. You know you're good, and you know you can improve some more. So you save a couple of thousand pesos or dollars and improve on your craft. You search for just the right seminar-workshop. You search for some more discussions and tutorials online. You search for the right inspirational books and self-help textbooks. You search and pick up bits and pieces of information on forums like this we have. You search for even more information about products and equipments.

You INVEST in your SELF.

All investments have returns. Some relatively faster than others, but still, with returns.

Invest wisely, and receive the returns tenfold!

14. You don't have enough money to start and make photography as a business, but every cell in your brain, every nerve in your system, every muscle in your body WANTS to be a photographer.

PRAY!

A business anchored on money will fall. A business anchored on God will fall last.

hmm..very nice indeed and very informative. Thanks Master Marlo for all these words... don't worry I have started to apply what you have said to me and will continue to apply them.

Marvs. Number 14th. It all starts there.

Of course..... actually its the number 14 that i have neglected... and the end result??... I did have many projects.....but I was very tired... had very little money and with broken gears.... which also made me loose some of them (my clients)

So am I a photographer that worth 6k??...... Yes...I was.... but not anymore.... I now worth a 70-200 f2.8 VR or more....

Problem with the photography business in the philippines is that it is a buyer's market. there are just so many photographers to choose from. And the rates are really down. Even wedding photo services are being offered as low as 25k. Why? because of the competition.

Hello Bong. Let me help you dissect 25k for a wedding being received by photographers in the Philippines.

Album : P4,500, the cheaper ones you can find in Hidalgo
Prints : P6,000, 100 pcs of 8r at Digiprint
Assembly of the album plus double sided tapes : P600
Gas and transport : P1,200 - 20 liters, unleaded
Bottled water for you and your fellows : P200

Subtotal : P12,500

Add:
1 assistant photog (not a relative!) : P6,000
1 lightsman (pwede na relative) : P1,500

Total : P20,000.00

Gross Profit : P5,000.00

Break your back for 8 hours.
No merienda while on the job, and you get to eat LAST on the reception.
You have not factored in costs of batteries, equipment use and depreciation, annex expenses as cell phone calls, vehicle errands, taxes and others i may be missing.

If you think the NEWBIES that have the money to pay for entry level dSLRS and accept 25k packages like this can stay in the business for long.

The computations show its a lot better you go to a Casino and spend P1,000 on chips and you still get to have bottomless coffee and an overnight hotel accommodation for free if you want to.

Do the math. Everything is divisible by "0" on the 3rd wedding.

Of course..... actually its the number 14 that i have neglected... and the end result??... I did have many projects.....but I was very tired... had very little money and with broken gears.... which also made me loose some of them (my clients)

So am I a photographer that worth 6k??...... Yes...I was.... but not anymore.... I now worth a 70-200 f2.8 VR or more....

Make the change!
This man shoots fabulous images, and he's making the change.
He believes its time to do himself a favor.
This equates to putting back something to help the industry instead of taking from it.

A mindset has been changed, at least 2 for this day.

@marlo, i think your value goes up as you climb up the food chain. it's a long process unless we have standardizations in place. think of the new pro as a doctor breaking into the industry who stats as hospital staff then moves up to become a healthway consultant and so on. shortcuts as in most professions is a rarity.

moreover, as we know, this is really a difficult situation we find ourselves in because it's really just market forces at play here...the law of supply and demand.

nonetheless, i agree with most of your principles and most of us will do well to err on pricing ourselves "right" than committing financial suicide.

all i can add really is keep your day jobs guys :(

Make the change!
This man shoots fabulous images, and he's making the change.
He believes its time to do himself a favor.
This equates to putting back something to help the industry instead of taking from it.

A mindset has been changed, at least 2 for this day.

Make that 3 sir Marlo. Though I have no paid shoots yet, after reading your thread, I am already thinking of ways to improve my craft and reap its rewards later on.

Keep them coming sir! :)

15. When you make a change, DO NOT do it overnight. Do it over time. This ensures you of a consistent, reasonable, attainable and positive growth.

One of the things ANYONE dislike is "change."

I know no car owner who is not pissed off with the increases in fuel costs, or the decreases in time deposit interest rates.

Change - up or down, positive or negative, left or right - is usually received with much angst.

If you have rated your self REASONABLY RIGHT from the start. You wouldn't have all these problems at all.

If you think the NEWBIES that have the money to pay for entry level dSLRS and accept 25k packages like this can stay in the business for long.

The computations show its a lot better you go to a Casino and spend P1,000 on chips and you still get to have bottomless coffee and an overnight hotel accommodation for free if you want to.

Do the math. Everything is divisible by "0" on the 3rd wedding.

Hello!

Yeah! It is a sad fact. It does happen. I know a few who had to "bite the bullet" cos they have to (or starve) and I also know a friend (from a well-off family) who cant get himself started cos he gets dismayed by the meager profits from this business.

By the way, the 25k example is a business by a father and a son who do this full time for over 5 years already. Wish I can mention names. They get a lot of projects and are so busy that my friends who got married first week of january got their wedding albums just the other week.

I understand that the the rates must be standardized and/or regulated. I understand also that we should be paid for our skill and equipment. Im just trying to explain to myself why some photographers charge low....price war happens because or a budget-sensitive market (coupled with "puwede na" mentallity). And this should be addressed....or else we risk the possibility of pulling the standards down.

Cheers!

@marlo, i think your value goes up as you climb up the food chain. it's a long process unless we have standardizations in place. think of the new pro as a doctor breaking into the industry who stats as hospital staff then moves up to become a healthway consultant and so on. shortcuts as in most professions is a rarity.

moreover, as we know, this is really a difficult situation we find ourselves in because it's really just market forces at play here...the law of supply and demand.

nonetheless, i agree with most of your principles and most of us will do well to err on pricing ourselves "right" than committing financial suicide.

all i can add really is keep your day jobs guys :(

Fantastic input Chief John. Here's another one:

16. When market forces are at play - the law of supply and demand suggests that when supply is greater than the demand , prices go down. When demand is greater than supply, prices go up. No one is above the law except our friggin' oil companies.

So naturally try to create demand by marketing campaigns, this will cost money but No.13 teaches us to make the right investments for an equal or greater amount of potential returns.

When an oil company knocks on your doors, rate your self right, and let me tell you this. They have ALL THE MONEY IN THE WORLD!

and another one.

17. Keep your day jobs.

Wow, this thread is a good read.
Awesome inputs.

One thing that everyone has to remember is that there will always be new people coming into the game and you will never ever ever ever remove those that price themselves so low that it makes our eyebrows do rotations around our heads. Since DSLR's are so easy to buy now and software that was only available to designers etc are now available to the masses, you cannot and will not be able to stop the flow of "new" photographers who want to compete in the market.

Never ever compare yourself with photographers who price themselves too low. Unless ofcourse their work is simply astounding. If so, I suggest you try to find out how they keep their costs low and their quality high.
Anyway, one good thing to do is, look at the works of photographers who price themselves high and see how they do it. This way, you have a basis for your work and you can work on getting yourself to that level. Always think, "When can i start charging like that? How can I improve my work to be able to start charging like that?" This mindset not only brings up your value, you also raise the quality of your work altogether.
Price yourself accordingly. Stop looking at the "New" photographers offering ridiculously low rates. As was said by a lot of people, compete on quality! The price will surely follow.
A lot of the "new" photographers will and can price themselves low. But why should you when you know the quality that you can give to your client?

I love this thread and the sense the light it sheds to this topic. Simply awesome.

I do not consider myself as a photographer that can compete on the professional level. As much as I can, I still try to get into practice sessions or paid practice sessions when possible. But I NEVER offer my services as a pro. I always just ask if its ok to shoot around. This in turn never takes business away from any photographer, helps me hone my craft and lets everybody go home happy. I am still getting myself to the level where I can compete on the professional level and price my work accordingly :)

12. Loosing clients based on cost structures are inevitable, BUT temporary.
Loosing clients based on poor performance are deliberate AND permanent.

I totally agree with this!!!

O.T. Losing (mawawala), not loosing (malalawlaw)...

I think another thing is... have a good portfolio. An impressive one at that.

I think another thing is... have a good portfolio. An impressive one at that.

I better be building myself right away. Now I have a project.:)

I totally agree with this!!!

O.T. Losing (mawawala), not loosing (malalawlaw)...

Loosing : Malalawlaw!
Master Dindin - i fell off my chair laughing at your tagalog word!!!! sounds like the photographer is a male and he needs to wear supporters for his balls, para hindi malawlaw!!!! woohooo!

Hello!

Yeah! It is a sad fact. It does happen. I know a few who had to "bite the bullet" cos they have to (or starve) and I also know a friend (from a well-off family) who cant get himself started cos he gets dismayed by the meager profits from this business.

By the way, the 25k example is a business by a father and a son who do this full time for over 5 years already. Wish I can mention names. They get a lot of projects and are so busy that my friends who got married first week of january got their wedding albums just the other week.

I understand that the the rates must be standardized and/or regulated. I understand also that we should be paid for our skill and equipment. Im just trying to explain to myself why some photographers charge low....price war happens because or a budget-sensitive market (coupled with "puwede na" mentallity). And this should be addressed....or else we risk the possibility of pulling the standards down.

Cheers!

My dear fellow Bong,

If you haven't noticed from your input regarding your observations on the "family photog business", Your friend got married JANUARY and they got what they paid for JULY.

This is gotta be rule 18.

18. The lower you price yourself, the harder it becomes for you to comfortably and professionally finish your deliverables. When it takes you six months to finish an album, that's NOT nearly close to being professional - thats something else. Somewhere between ripping off your clients and taking care of your clients at your free time.

That is NOT the way to take care of business or Photography as a profession.

Good thing your friends will not get married again, but i am pretty sure, they WILL NOT endorse the tag-team photogs anymore.

If that is your kind of competition, then you have a true opportunity waiting to be tapped.

My dear fellow Bong,

If you haven't noticed from your input regarding your observations on the "family photog business", Your friend got married JANUARY and they got what they paid for JULY.

This is gotta be rule 18.

18. The lower you price yourself, the harder it becomes for you to comfortably and professionally finish your deliverables. When it takes you six months to finish an album, that's NOT nearly close to being professional - thats something else. Somewhere between ripping off your clients and taking care of your clients at your free time.

That is NOT the way to take care of business or Photography as a profession.

Good thing your friends will not get married again, but i am pretty sure, they WILL NOT endorse the tag-team photogs anymore.

If that is your kind of competition, then you have a true opportunity waiting to be tapped.

But there are a couple of reasons why albums get delayed (bong did not specify why?):
- some couples have a hard time choosing pictures for the album or sometimes too busy that it takes weeks or months (My wife and I were guilty of this)
- too many revisions (if the studio allows it: some studios allow a certain no of revisions, some unlimited)
- backlog from the studio (very unprofessional)

Hi Marlo,

I've been enjoying this thread for the past couple of minutes. Funny that you should bring up the thing about your wife doing the negotiating! She just did that a few minutes ago with a difficult client. If its a no-go. I get to spend free time with her!

But on a more serious note...I've been a working pro for more than 15 years and with the crisis these days I'm hearing talk about clients and ad agencies reducing staff and spending less on advertising in the coming months. I consider myself a mid priced photographer charging far less than what the top pro's in the 80's were charging (them golden days was when you could count the number of good photogs on your fingers and toes). It's scary when you go three to four weeks without a good shoot and this hasn't happened for years.

To be fair, there are always editorial jobs to fill in the dead space but i would advice everyone getting into this business to pick your editorial jobs well. A choice of a good story or pictorial could land you recognition and more importantly a plum account that will make some real cash.

Thanks for your insights!

Albert

@Bong: A market is not only dictated by the customer, but the provider as well, hence the basic concept of supply and demand. Until the trend of newbies who think they're good enough to charge but has no experience in doing photography AS A BUSINESS (marketing, logistics, checks and balances, etc.) continues, then the industry will lean towards the buyer's demands.

While we can't stop people who thinks they're good enough to charge (I call rip-off, but that's just me) even if they haven't had enough skills to deliver a product worth paying, it's up to those who thinks long term and those who really want to make photography their bread and butter (either as an artist or photographic service provider) to not succumb to "I'll charge low for now" mindset.

Like I've mentioned earlier (and further explained in detail by Mr. Moya), do it right the first time and think ahead. If you've done all your homework and confident with your PRODUCT (which includes style, output, delivery commitments, etc.) then you decide on the price and offer it for nothing less that what it's worth. All the factors you've illustrated with your example (delayed delivery) stems back to lack of business planning. It doesn't really matter how long someone has been in the business, if the flaw in the production line isn't identified and rectified, it'll just snowball if the business does pick up.

Such actions (or lack of it) results to lower profits and handicapping growth potential.

While the proliferation of half-baked photographer cum photoshop users seem to dilute the market, in reality, it's a greater chance for bonafide artists to stand out.

It's HARDER to make it, but if you carve a niche, it's also a much better opportunity for you. You'll reach a stage where your clients will walk up to you and won't even mention anything about price negotiation.

It's easy to spot a red boat in a large green sea. :)

Lastly, investment doesn't start nor end with the equipment purchase... Don't forget that the camera, flash, etc. are just equipment, if you don't invest in educating yourself in photography, business, marketing, PR, time management, etc... It won't work no matter how good you think you are.

Hobby vs. Business, 2 totally different things.

and another one.

17. Keep your day jobs.

Im keeping mine this time. I got out of the military to push my photography fulltime shooting editorial stories for advertising and assisting big name photogs in my area but I had to learn it the hard way knowing that it is just too hard. A lot of new photographers wont even charge and it was killing the business (GWC's non-stop TFCDs), Magazine companies wont even pay unlike there in the Philippines. Cant blame them... theres just a LOT of us wanting to submit and the editors are just so happy making free harvests.

Good thread guys!

4. When you don't know how much to charge, let your wife do the talking. If wife was unable to land the project. The client is just going to waste your time. Better spend that time with her.

i don't have a wife. what i'll have is a husband.

Hi Marlo,

Today is the first time i'm reading your thread, and all i can say is... true.. true... true...

I have been doing this professionally for 3 years now and have focused on the areas of wedding and commercial photography.

I am based in Iloilo and most clients (even commercial ones) here have the following attitude towards photography:
1. They find the cheapest they can get.
2. Expect something good to come out of what they paid for.
3. (And then regret when the output comes)

Although there are exceptions for those who really look at our work, equipment, dedication and the high value we put in our selves, thus our PRICE.

There is no reason carrying at least P500K worth of equipment to a wedding for nothing! Even more than our equipment, let us value ourselves!

Some photographers unbelievably agree to a NET take home of as little as P2,000- P2,500for a wedding (from a P10,000 photo and video package)!

In the past year alone, due to the low cost of owning an entry level DSLR, I have seen several studios and photographers coming out from everywhere wanting a piece of the market. Instead on working on their craft to provide quality so that they can price better and earn more, they would rather price themselves really low just to "lure" more clients. "Practice lang daw muna." Even worse, some older photographers here would tell new photographers to "charge low, to get more clients" - but that just equates to more work and frustration!

Last year, I got very disappointed because we lost several commercial clients because they thought our prices were high, so they opted for others that charge only 10% of our price - as in P10k for P100K projects. This did not lead me to adjust my price. But it lead clients to realize that they made the wrong decision and that they got what they paid for. Now we charge even higher.

We can't really say that customers become winners if the prices are low. - How can you expect a photographer to work at his best when he knows he is getting paid so low? How can you expect him to improve his skills when he can't even afford seminars and trainings because what he earns is just enough? How can you expect him to give you high quality output when he can't even invest in better equipment? or high quality prints or albums?

We all lose when prices go down.

But those who gain are those who keep their prices at a level based on how much they are worth, how good they are, how much they want to earn, and how much they want to further improve themselves in professional photography work.

Customers can also win when they choose a photographer well, pay a premium for his/her service, thus the excellent output!

Hey Marlo,

Very nice thread... Lots of great nuggets to ponder... :)

I think this thread is not only applicable to those wanting to go into photography, but can be reapplied to any business venture. :)

I like the 17. Keep your day job. Sometimes, when we don't have other means we go into Fight or fright mode, and most often the fright mode is the culprit why we settle for low pricing...

19. The only reason you can price a wedding coverage package at P25K is when you are using UNLICENSED software.

You should be ashamed of yourself for earning with the wrong business ethics. Lowballing the industry is already an offense. Being a pirate on productivity softwares is a disgust.

If you are using software you do not own or purchase, then you must understand that you are not supposed to make money out of it. A pirate STEALS. A business is for a living, you should not STEAL for a LIVING.

Marking up your photography service fees means you are able to save money to purchase your own license. If you are adamant or shy in explaining why suddenly you have increased your rates, then just plainly tell them that LICENSE fees has increased too. Educating the clientele is SERIUOSLY IMPORTANT FOR ALL OF US.

It is just a matter of time when the NBI and BSA gets the manpower they need to bust your ass for using billion-dollar softwares you continue to steal.

And you LOSE everything you worked hard for.

Don't you just love it when you can straighten your neck and look fellow photogs straight because the playing field is level?

This is important too so think about it.

Hi Marlo,

I've been enjoying this thread for the past couple of minutes. Funny that you should bring up the thing about your wife doing the negotiating! She just did that a few minutes ago with a difficult client. If its a no-go. I get to spend free time with her!

But on a more serious note...I've been a working pro for more than 15 years and with the crisis these days I'm hearing talk about clients and ad agencies reducing staff and spending less on advertising in the coming months. I consider myself a mid priced photographer charging far less than what the top pro's in the 80's were charging (them golden days was when you could count the number of good photogs on your fingers and toes). It's scary when you go three to four weeks without a good shoot and this hasn't happened for years.

To be fair, there are always editorial jobs to fill in the dead space but i would advice everyone getting into this business to pick your editorial jobs well. A choice of a good story or pictorial could land you recognition and more importantly a plum account that will make some real cash.

Thanks for your insights!

Albert

Fantastic words from a true Pro! thank you Master Albert!

20. Photography is NOT a basic human need.
When the economics of cost dictate on us negatively, then everyone and everything is switched to "survival mode".

When on "survival mode", spending less is the name of the game, thus, agencies cut on staffing expenses and as you say, companies cut on expenses themselves.

However, cutting "marketing" expenses means reducing exposure which eventually leads to reducing recall which eventually leads the company to lose customers which eventually leads to lesser and lesser revenues - which IS NOT the name of the game of business. Too many companies have grown so large because the bosses have the RIGHT AND REASONABLE MIND not to cut expenses that MAKE the money.

The Photographer here should see the opportunity. So do not despair.

Cutting costs IS NOT the solution to remain in business. MAINTAINING and IMPROVING quality is.

Now I remember a studio who offers just around P12,800 for photo/video package (5"x7" digital albumm) that's around 2 years ago. This studio has the equipment and staff and I consider them good as I have seen the output from my cousin's wedding. Now I think they are also victims of the price war here.

Question. Would it hurt the industry if I aim at the class c market where normally a couple's budget would go no higher than 50k for the entire occassion? I'm assuming they will be alloting 8-10k for the our service. I don't want to do diservice to our profession by going at the higher market with my present gears. Now if I get a higher class client I can always tap my buddy with high end gears right?

Nice read, great learning information, very real and solid foundations but... there should be a line drawn between these entities or groupings:
A. Professional (those who depend on Photography as their bread and butter. Be it running a studio or for their services making images)
B. Part Timer (those who has a day job that does not entail photography, but takes on small projects once in a while)
C. Hobbyist (those who shoot for the art of it, the recognition, or simply for the fun of it, he maybe contemplating on being a PRO)


These 3 groups have different interests: the pro to earn money, the part timer to have fun and earn to buy more photo equipment, the hobbyist to prove to himself and the world that his images are interesting and good or simply to have fun.


This thread talks about photographers undercutting the fees of other established photographers or industry for that matter. Sometimes the guilty party would come from the newbie’s or part timers who just need extra income or worst, the hobbyist who will sometimes even do it for free! Is that wrong… it simply depends on which group you are looking from.


Corporations who need photos for their collateral materials will just hold contests and use these “free” images instead of hiring an ad agency/photographer/stylist/venue/etc/etc. Hobbyist will be more than glad to submit those photos simply because their interest is to be recognized.


Even photographers are guilty of this “free harvest” phenomena, look at what’s happening in a related industry, modeling. Do we not look for models or aspiring models who will render their services for free, you just have to provide to them files of the shoot. Should the professional models association shout “foul” as well? The same predicament.


It would be interesting to figure the ratio between these three group within the DPP Forums Community. Some issues will present in itself obvious conflicts like the “Caltex Photo Contest” rights over submitted photo issue, and this six thousand peso photographer…again from whose eyes are you looking from.


But I am quite sure there are others like me, a part timer/hobbyist who wishes all our brothers who chose photography as their profession , sustained livelihood and stability in the industry…

19. The only reason you can price a wedding coverage package at P25K is when you are using UNLICENSED software.

You should be ashamed of yourself for earning with the wrong business ethics. Lowballing the industry is already an offense. Being a pirate on productivity softwares is a disgust.

If you are using software you do not own or purchase, then you must understand that you are not supposed to make money out of it. A pirate STEALS. A business is for a living, you should not STEAL for a LIVING.

Marking up your photography service fees means you are able to save money to purchase your own license. If you are adamant or shy in explaining why suddenly you have increased your rates, then just plainly tell them that LICENSE fees has increased too. Educating the clientele is SERIUOSLY IMPORTANT FOR ALL OF US.

It is just a matter of time when the NBI and BSA gets the manpower they need to bust your ass for using billion-dollar softwares you continue to steal.

And you LOSE everything you worked hard for.

Don't you just love it when you can straighten your neck and look fellow photogs straight because the playing field is level?

This is important too so think about it.


Ahaha I missed this. I have to start my price at 20k but I have to sweeten the deal. I have to use Gimp and buy video editing software. 2 photogs initially. When I get my name in the field I'll start pricing up. How's that?

During my last trip to Davao, I saw an AD in the streets of a photo studio offering a whole wedding with album and prints AND video for 6K. That actually made me wonder how much the person is paying his/her staff and the expenses that occurred during the wedding coverage.

hi jerwin, ideally it would be good to do everything within your but if it can be done better at a cheaper cost by outsourcing it, do it :)

During my last trip to Davao, I saw an AD in the streets of a photo studio offering a whole wedding with album and prints AND video for 6K. That actually made me wonder how much the person is paying his/her staff and the expenses that occurred during the wedding coverage.

I think I can do that if the couple is really gusgusin (poor). But no editing whatsoever. Here's the cd and the tape you poor things. :D Kidding. I'd probably advise the couple buy yourself a digital camera worth 6k. I'll even teach them how to shoot.

hi jerwin, ideally it would be good to do everything within your but if it can be done better at a cheaper cost by outsourcing it, do it :)

yes. i think we have to be firm with our policies. thanks for the suggestion.

Ahaha I missed this. I have to start my price at 20k but I have to sweeten the deal. I have to use Gimp and buy video editing software. 2 photogs initially. When I get my name in the field I'll start pricing up. How's that?

Hello Jerwin, you're getting the idea. We're all happy for you.
But let me remind you, the sample rates i gave here, are PHOTOGRAPHY SERVICES pa lang. If you haven't noticed, there is no item for video, videography or videographers.
This is an altogether other business na.

Start with a 15k to 20k take home fee just for your SELF. Then add whatever spending is needed for the project. You may end up with a STARTING package of 35-40k.
When you land the first 40k job, send DPP a cheque for a year's subscription to the magazine. You'll swear you should have done this a long time ago.

I think I can do that if the couple is really gusgusin (poor). But no editing whatsoever. Here's the cd and the tape you poor things. :D Kidding. I'd probably advise the couple buy yourself a digital camera worth 6k. I'll even teach them how to shoot.

That's a bit condescending to be honest... Why not do it for free if they can't afford you? Then just aim for the market that can actually afford your 'right' price... If you deliver something that is not as good as your best work, this is also doing a disservice to yourself.

Also, Its actually hard to justify why you're pricing one client for 6K, and another for 60K, and your only reason is that one can afford the 10x price, while the former can't... Howabout the market who can only afford 30K??? Will you give into this as well???

What I learn from being a corporate slave is that: I'm only as good as my best and last work. Doing anything less is a failure. Success is always redefined daily...

Wow,

So many insights, too bad they're mostly negative but i guess it really just reflects on the state of the business these days. Another thing i'd like to say is that standards of our clients have gone down as far as the photographs are concerned. They just aren't that discriminating any more and many look for the value of inclusions instead of the photographers output. Many will go for puwede na because realistically the end consumer doesn't really care what things look like anymore. On the other side of things, many assume that since the newbies are priced very low they aren't all that good. I for one beg to disagree. the scary thingis that there are also many young new photographers out there who can shoot with the best and can afford not to charge very high.

Albert

Hello Jerwin, you're getting the idea. We're all happy for you.
But let me remind you, the sample rates i gave here, are PHOTOGRAPHY SERVICES pa lang. If you haven't noticed, there is no item for video, videography or videographers.
This is an altogether other business na.

Start with a 15k to 20k take home fee just for your SELF. Then add whatever spending is needed for the project. You may end up with a STARTING package of 35-40k.
When you land the first 40k job, send DPP a cheque for a year's subscription to the magazine. You'll swear you should have done this a long time ago.

Hmmmm... Now I have something to really aim for. I probably need to get my subscription now.

40k for a project is overwhelming for a guy like me. Still haven't figured out how I'll do that. Thinking...

I'll get to that someday.:)

That's a bit condescending to be honest... Why not do it for free if they can't afford you? Then just aim for the market that can actually afford your 'right' price... If you deliver something that is not as good as your best work, this is also doing a disservice to yourself.

Also, Its actually hard to justify why you're pricing one client for 6K, and another for 60K, and your only reason is that one can afford the 10x price, while the former can't... Howabout the market who can only afford 30K??? Will you give into this as well???

What I learn from being a corporate slave is that: I'm only as good as my best and last work. Doing anything less is a failure. Success is always redefined daily...

No sir. I'm not that kind of person. Thanks for the insight.:)

Hi Marlo,

Today is the first time i'm reading your thread, and all i can say is... true.. true... true...

I have been doing this professionally for 3 years now and have focused on the areas of wedding and commercial photography.

I am based in Iloilo and most clients (even commercial ones) here have the following attitude towards photography:
1. They find the cheapest they can get.
2. Expect something good to come out of what they paid for.
3. (And then regret when the output comes)

Although there are exceptions for those who really look at our work, equipment, dedication and the high value we put in our selves, thus our PRICE.

There is no reason carrying at least P500K worth of equipment to a wedding for nothing! Even more than our equipment, let us value ourselves!

Some photographers unbelievably agree to a NET take home of as little as P2,000- P2,500for a wedding (from a P10,000 photo and video package)!

In the past year alone, due to the low cost of owning an entry level DSLR, I have seen several studios and photographers coming out from everywhere wanting a piece of the market. Instead on working on their craft to provide quality so that they can price better and earn more, they would rather price themselves really low just to "lure" more clients. "Practice lang daw muna." Even worse, some older photographers here would tell new photographers to "charge low, to get more clients" - but that just equates to more work and frustration!

Last year, I got very disappointed because we lost several commercial clients because they thought our prices were high, so they opted for others that charge only 10% of our price - as in P10k for P100K projects. This did not lead me to adjust my price. But it lead clients to realize that they made the wrong decision and that they got what they paid for. Now we charge even higher.

We can't really say that customers become winners if the prices are low. - How can you expect a photographer to work at his best when he knows he is getting paid so low? How can you expect him to improve his skills when he can't even afford seminars and trainings because what he earns is just enough? How can you expect him to give you high quality output when he can't even invest in better equipment? or high quality prints or albums?

We all lose when prices go down.

But those who gain are those who keep their prices at a level based on how much they are worth, how good they are, how much they want to earn, and how much they want to further improve themselves in professional photography work.

Customers can also win when they choose a photographer well, pay a premium for his/her service, thus the excellent output!

ok... anyone want to talk about this over drinks...

If you are somebody like Neal Oshima, in reality, you are worth 6,000 x 10

Over drinks? Lord knows we all need one...or a couple. Let's x-deal a shoot with a bar...hahahahah

I'd gladly join you guys over a couple of beers, i'm just afraid we'll all go home more depressed.

Marlo, thanks for starting this thread...no "master" here, just a regular joe who felt comfortable shooting pics for a living. I used to be an artist but could never take myself seriously doing so.

One thing i'd love to tell all these huge companies asking for discounts is i once shot food shots for a pares house - they paid my regular rate and never asked for a discount heck they even paid cash on the day of the shoot. Lets pray there are more Pares houses out there who pay fairly for the value of our work.

Albert

I think I can do that if the couple is really gusgusin (poor). But no editing whatsoever. Here's the cd and the tape you poor things. :D Kidding. I'd probably advise the couple buy yourself a digital camera worth 6k. I'll even teach them how to shoot.

Jerwin, although the stages for a change has begun for you. It would be a positive thing to begin to make the initial changes slowly AND start it on your self and slowly revise the attitude. I know you may just be joking on your reply quoted above, but Melvin is right and the point should be well taken by you.

Defining the worth of you as a photographer in the business of earning BY photography has more meaning than just money. Money IS always an OBJECT. But clients, no matter how small they can pay, SHOULD be treated as a SUBJECT, thereby learning from them and adjusting your self accordingly.

When clients are poor, have a heart. The other clients are looking for a heart themselves, someone who can understand them, therefore the photographer sees THROUGH the barriers of money and into the SUBJECT themselves which allows him to create some of the more magnificent images he can ever capture. It is a warming experience to make "as you say it - a poor couple" happy by photographing for free, which is a way of giving back to the world.

Its okay Jerwin, nobody said it would be easy to make the change. But go for it!

Lowballing doesn't always gets the job and it may even give an impression to clients that you're pricing your services that way because you can only produce LOW quality output (which isn't always true for everyone). And even if you get the job, it's hard to charge higher for succeeding projects with the same clients. They can always say na, "you did exactly the same project for 6K before, how come you are asking 60K now?"

In projects that undergo bidding, I observed that those who give middle-price quotes often gets the project. there are a number of reasons why this happens. Most of it are already mentioned in previous posts.

Learning the business side of photography is as challenging as learning the craft itself.

Jerwin, although the stages for a change has begun for you. It would be a positive thing to begin to make the initial changes slowly AND start it on your self and slowly revise the attitude. I know you may just be joking on your reply quoted above, but Melvin is right and the point should be well taken by you.

Defining the worth of you as a photographer in the business of earning BY photography has more meaning than just money. Money IS always an OBJECT. But clients, no matter how small they can pay, SHOULD be treated as a SUBJECT, thereby learning from them and adjusting your self accordingly.

When clients are poor, have a heart. The other clients are looking for a heart themselves, someone who can understand them, therefore the photographer sees THROUGH the barriers of money and into the SUBJECT themselves which allows him to create some of the more magnificent images he can ever capture. It is a warming experience to make "as you say it - a poor couple" happy by photographing for free, which is a way of giving back to the world.

Its okay Jerwin, nobody said it would be easy to make the change. But go for it!

Yes. I have heart for my clients. Whenever I have clients in my shop I can't help with my service I always make sure they know what to do. After all I am one of those poor things :D.

Thanks for the encouragement. I'm sure it will help me in my development as a photographer. Cheers to all.:)

In projects that undergo bidding, I observed that those who give middle-price quotes often gets the project. there are a number of reasons why this happens. Most of it are already mentioned in previous posts.

ft itself.

Exactly... This is a technique used in bidding... the rationale is that the highest bid is obviously too high, while lowest bidder/s might have questionable quality and specs might not be order... :)

i wish i were a 6k pesos photographer so i can give you all the reasons for being one.

with the present economic conditions, i guess that 80 per cent of the total number of photographers here in the philippines belong to the 6k pesos category and only 20 per cent or less are in much higher category than the 6k pesos photographers (applying pareto's law).

if that estimate is right, i don't think the majority of the 6k pesos photographers do not know their real worth. maybe they are still surviving in that rate or else they should have gone out of the photography business.

is it really bad or wrong to be a 6k pesos photographer?

business competition is 'war'. as the saying goes - 'all is fair in love and war'.

.....there should be a line drawn between these entities or groupings:
A. Professional (those who depend on Photography as their bread and butter. Be it running a studio or for their services making images)
B. Part Timer (those who has a day job that does not entail photography, but takes on small projects once in a while)
C. Hobbyist (those who shoot for the art of it, the recognition, or simply for the fun of it, he maybe contemplating on being a PRO)

This thread talks about photographers undercutting the fees of other established photographers or industry for that matter. Sometimes the guilty party would come from the newbie’s or part timers who just need extra income or worst, the hobbyist who will sometimes even do it for free! Is that wrong… it simply depends on which group you are looking from.

But I am quite sure there are others like me, a part timer/hobbyist who wishes all our brothers who chose photography as their profession , sustained livelihood and stability in the industry…


21. Know what kind of photographer you are in the business sense.

a. Professional.
b. Part time.
c. Hobbyist.

To sustain the stability of the industry. It pays to be honest to your client FROM THE START. If you are a hobbyist - and you got chosen to shoot for whatever reason, be it by affinity or consanguinity, by referral, by your multiply site etc, just tell them you're a HOBBYIST PHOTOGRAPHER, by this you meant you need not get paid and that you are doing this for any other reason EXCEPT money. If they give you a dole out, gracefully accept. It is NOT your professional fee. It is a TOKEN of appreciation. If your work gets published - congratulations. But understand that some other people does what you just did for a LIVING! When people like you multiply, like today, those other people will starve to death.

If you can accept that, then you can go to hell!

Is it bad or wrong?

In my opinion, the photographers that charges 6K or lower shouldn't be totally vanished in the scene. Keep in mind that not all people have the capacity to pay big bucks for premium photos. as i've mentioned in another thread, Photography just like most businesses, caters to a broad spectrum of clients. There's the class A, the B, the C, and the Classes D and E. Imagine a couple living along the riles who are madly inlove with each other, and they decided to get married. Let's say they are both earning minimum wages. If a wedding coverage was standardized to cost 50K-ish and above, don't you think it wouldn't be far fetched for them to spend the huge amount of money to have their special day immortlized? or would they even have the capacity to pay for the service, (take note that it's for photography coverage only without video pa)?

If there are no more 6K photogs to take these kind of jobs, then photography will be an exclusive privilege only for those who can afford.

That's why there are 5 star hotels and some cheap bedspace-per-night inns, there are luxurious restaurants and there are turo-turos, there are luxury cars and there are those who commute or walk, there are 10K neckties and there's the P50 ones from ukay-ukay. The economic status of people/client in this country of ours is so varied--from the filthiest of the filthy rich to the dirtiest of the dirt poor. Thus, i think, it follows that the spectrum of the services providers(photographers included) varies.

just my two pixels.

BTW
JE: tara beer na hehe. kelan?

Interesting thread.

I'm not much of a businessman. More of an "artist" (hopefully, that didn't come off as snooty).

If somebody asks how much, I give them a FIRM quote. And more often than not, I feel quite relieved when they don't bite. Because that only means that I get to keep my prints :)

I really get emotionally involved where photographs are involved... from shooting all the way to printing... so I find it hard to part with my stuff.

Oh, and it really helps that I have a day job :)

Christian: That goes with the initial planning for the business, every business has a target market anyway, if your target market are the lower income bracket, then you still have to do the same costing procedure and not play the pricewar with those already in that segment.

That's worth mentioning in this thread. Define your target market :)

Interesting thread.

I'm not much of a businessman. More of an "artist" (hopefully, that didn't come off as snooty).

If somebody asks how much, I give them a FIRM quote. And more often than not, I feel quite relieved when they don't bite. Because that only means that I get to keep my prints :)

I really get emotionally involved where photographs are involved... from shooting all the way to printing... so I find it hard to part with my stuff.

Oh, and it really helps that I have a day job :)


This is how FIRM we ALL should.
And this is the kind and level of PASSION we ALL should have.
The day job IS the side line.

Passion IS emotion. And emotion always seeks PERFECTION.

22. Perfection comes at a steep price. - NC08

23. DEFINE your target market. - DT.

Im keeping mine this time. I got out of the military to push my photography fulltime shooting editorial stories for advertising and assisting big name photogs in my area but I had to learn it the hard way knowing that it is just too hard. A lot of new photographers wont even charge and it was killing the business (GWC's non-stop TFCDs), Magazine companies wont even pay unlike there in the Philippines. Cant blame them... theres just a LOT of us wanting to submit and the editors are just so happy making free harvests.

Good thread guys!
sounds familiar....many companies here in P.I. are doin the same thing. They organize photo-competition or photo contest......encourage many submissions of entries....give meager prizes....gets EXCLUSIVE rights of your photos ( winning or non-winning)....FINAL product...." THEY SAVE ON ADVERTISING EXPENSES "...their business gain profits....and you end up with an accolades or praises!:(

Is it bad or wrong?

If there are no more 6K photogs to take these kind of jobs, then photography will be an exclusive privilege only for those who can afford.

Thus, i think, it follows that the spectrum of the services providers(photographers included) varies.


Fantastic input Chirstian. All true. Now commandment #23.

But this thread IS about letting go of the 6k photogs.
You can not price more if you let the client get out the door with your tongue in their hands for a measly sum. Surely, you are scratching your head when the realization sets in, but can't do anything more about it.

This thread is about taking the next step forward. Forward, meaning more REASONABLE MONEY for the photographer. LEAVING the 6k tag behind and how to successfully land in the next stage without too much blood on the way.

The "poor" that we keep referring to may exist, but then again, it may not. Because the poor have cellphone cameras that they use to forego with a photographer. If they can do that, let us simply think we can do the same.

In all honesty, i doubt if that is our target market. It may still be a target market, but photography is admittedly a luxury. A luxury that people WANT. We should let those who WANT it KNOW that it is not cheap.

Therefore, this thread.

If anyone among you are interested with client's capacity to pay, here are two honest to goodness experience-based generalizations about clients abroad, and clients here.

Thread #32 by Bong Bajo

Problem with the photography business in the philippines is that it is a buyer's market. there are just so many photographers to choose from. And the rates are really down. Even wedding photo services are being offered as low as 25k. Why? because of the competition.

Given this scenario, and being a newbie, it is only normal for the newbie to start at the low end of the rates....or even lower just to get initial projects. Im not promoting it though, but I can understand why this is happening. Life here in the phils is not as easy as in other countries. almost everything is being sold at a budget....from goods to services. If you're a newbie in a market like that, I would understand why would you join the price war.

A better alternative to address this is to gather all photographers to form an association that will primarily regulate the market. Or even influence law makers to help regulate and also protect the rights of photographers.

and Thread #57 by Dennis Santarinala

Im keeping mine this time. I got out of the military to push my photography fulltime shooting editorial stories for advertising and assisting big name photogs in my area but I had to learn it the hard way knowing that it is just too hard. A lot of new photographers wont even charge and it was killing the business (GWC's non-stop TFCDs), Magazine companies wont even pay unlike there in the Philippines. Cant blame them... theres just a LOT of us wanting to submit and the editors are just so happy making free harvests.

Good thread guys!

Fantastic input Chirstian. All true. Now commandment #23.

The "poor" that we keep referring to may exist, but then again, it may not. Because the poor have cellphone cameras that they use to forego with a photographer. If they can do that, let us simply think we can do the same.

.


Sad to say this is very true!:(there are poor and there are those who play "poor". They can afford new celfone every year, DVD players, karaoke, flat TV, cosmetic surgeries ( gluthatione etc...etc...) and yet they don't have MEDICAL INSURANCE!:Shock:

21. Know what kind of photographer you are in the business sense.

a. Professional.
b. Part time.
c. Hobbyist.

To sustain the stability of the industry. It pays to be honest to your client FROM THE START. If you are a hobbyist - and you got chosen to shoot for whatever reason, be it by affinity or consanguinity, by referral, by your multiply site etc, just tell them you're a HOBBYIST PHOTOGRAPHER, by this you meant you need not get paid and that you are doing this for any other reason EXCEPT money. If they give you a dole out, gracefully accept. It is NOT your professional fee. It is a TOKEN of appreciation. If your work gets published - congratulations. But understand that some other people does what you just did for a LIVING! When people like you multiply, like today, those other people will starve to death.

If you can accept that, then you can go to hell!

I really enjoyed what i've read so far. Now I understand why I paid that much for my wedding photos and why I only paid P3,500 for my kid's birthday party..

Hmm., number 21.. Since I'm a hobbyist and will soon start taking on projects, I would probably be guilty of this. Friends who own businesses are starting to ask if I could take pictures of their events (pre-school events, birthday parties etc). Since these are friends, I would probably give the service for free. I don't want to be one of the causes of other people starving and definitely don't want to go to hell:Oops: Another dilemma is, if I don't start here, how could I gain experience to bring my hobby to the next level?

I really enjoyed what i've read so far. Now I understand why I paid that much for my wedding photos and why I only paid P3,500 for my kid's birthday party..

Hmm., number 21.. Since I'm a hobbyist and will soon start taking on projects, I would probably be guilty of this. Friends who own businesses are starting to ask if I could take pictures of their events (pre-school events, birthday parties etc). Since these are friends, I would probably give the service for free. I don't want to be one of the causes of other people starving and definitely don't want to go to hell:Oops: Another dilemma is, if I don't start here, how could I gain experience to bring my hobby to the next level?

If you liked #21. you might want to reflect on #13 for your improvement

13. You know you're good, and you know you can improve some more. So you save a couple of thousand pesos or dollars and improve on your craft. You search for just the right seminar-workshop. You search for some more discussions and tutorials online. You search for the right inspirational books and self-help textbooks. You search and pick up bits and pieces of information on forums like this we have. You search for even more information about products and equipments.

You INVEST in your SELF.

All investments have returns. Some relatively faster than others, but still, with returns.

Invest wisely, and receive the returns tenfold!

When you finally make and take the next step. Seriously consider your fees. It is incredibly more painful to increase your fees than to decrease them, so START RIGHT, and PROVE IT.

Meanwhile, if you still do not have your own OFFICIAL RECEIPTS, keep the hobby and accept the TOKENS they give you. Use the time and exposure as an investment to your self, and get those damn DPP magazines if you haven't got them yet.

in my experience.. clients might go and search for other photographers with lower pro fees... and it is inevitable... but later if you really gave quality work to those clients who went out to try out other photographers... ..they will go back to you...

Before I asked here in another thread about how to let your clients know that you will be increasing your pro fee. I have received many good suggestions and I applied them. Ofcourse, my clients initial reaction was not good.. they ought to transfer to another photographer.. i experienced an almost zero income for a month... but after that month... that client started to call me up again and gave me numerous projects because they were really disappointed with the quality of work of the photographers that they transfered to. It almost doubled my monthly income.. and I was able to buy another body... unfortunately... even if i have implemented a raise in profee.. compared to what this thread is all about it was still low.... i was thinking if I have met marlo 3 months ago... I would have been holding by now my 70-200 F2.8 VR

Aysus Marvin, pambihira ka talaga! Stop that.

But let me inspire you more.

There is a time for everything under heaven.
Break new ground. Plant righteousness, and harvest the fruit that your loyalty will produce for me." It's time to seek the LORD! When he comes, he will rain righteousness on you. Hosea 10:12

Ask...and it shall be given to you.

Aysus Marvin, pambihira ka talaga! Stop that.

But let me inspire you more.

There is a time for everything under heaven.
Break new ground. Plant righteousness, and harvest the fruit that your loyalty will produce for me." It's time to seek the LORD! When he comes, he will rain righteousness on you. Hosea 10:12

Ask...and it shall be given to you.

Amen. May the God heaven and earth fill my cup in the presence of my enemies.

Now this one I like! There is so much connection between photography and biblical principles.

Keep it comin' Bro Marlo. This is the year of the Lord's favor for all of us!
God bless.



Aysus Marvin, pambihira ka talaga! Stop that.

But let me inspire you more.

There is a time for everything under heaven.
Break new ground. Plant righteousness, and harvest the fruit that your loyalty will produce for me." It's time to seek the LORD! When he comes, he will rain righteousness on you. Hosea 10:12

Ask...and it shall be given to you.

24. If you CAN'T do it. Think first. If you don't want a challenge, learn to say no. If the project is an untried style yet belong to your core photographic competencies, then give yourself a day to decide.

It may pose as a serious challenge to your capability and you may want to push the limits, but do so only if your instincts tell you that you can do it. If you will still figure out if you can do the challenge, then you can't. Pushing your self to the limits is the one thing that separates the professionals from the rest - learn it.

Learning to say no without shooing the client away to the next photographer is an easy art. Either you have prepared a recommendation for another photog, or you are thinking of asking this photog to work WITH you or FOR you. Working with a fellow photog on a project is normal. Explore it.

25. If you want to win. You have to let others win too. And you can't win by low-balling your price. You lose the price, YOU LOSE THE PRIZE.

Some photographers may be in a better position than you, you ask yourself how they are able to pull it off, always remember, these are WINNER PHOTOGRAPHERS. They are there because they WIN the prize. You can BE in that position when you begin to BE a winner.

26. When you want to get noticed, make your own style. When you have your own style, you will get all the notice you want. Be the boss of your own style. Do not remain a copycat, be a boss.

Money is dynamic.
It never stays in one place all the time. It may stay there for a long time, but eventually, it goes somewhere else.

When money finds your doors. Be ready. Because it may leave without a moments notice. What is it looking for? Money looks for a boss. Someone who is able to make it grow and tell it what to do. It doesn't like to be a boss , although at times, you can really feel its teeth, but money moves around, searching, looking for its potential boss. The boss has an open door, when the boss closes the door, he opens the window, he knows its just a matter of time when money finds him.

So be the boss. Be your OWN style. And money you will have.

this thread should have been a whole seminar on the business of photography. i feel its worth a couple of thousand pesos and in it we get to learn to make hundreds of thousands. really.:)

TFS Master Marlo...this thread deserved to be pinned :)

27. To get the money. Look like you don't need it. Dress properly and clean yourself up.

When talking to clients, good breeding AND grooming pays. And it pays handsomely.
When shooting for a wedding. Wear what everyone else is wearing. Do not wear that very expensive Columbia Photographer's pocket shirt while everyone else is wearing a Barong Tagalog. It may be expensive, but you'd look like shit.

Looking like shit IS NOT how you want all those potential Barong-clad clients see you, else they think your the 6k photog.

Trim your nails. Get a new haircut. Ask for an invitation to the wedding. BE PART of the event. Be like a guest who holds a camera, and damn, hold the BEST camera you have in your arsenal. If you have other photogs with you, teach them weeks before how you want the event covered, so you can shake hands with your fellow guests, and leave a mark AND a business card while talking to them, while your assistant continue to shoot. As much as you can, be NEAR the couple, but be smart. You're being paid to do a job, of course, it wouldn't hurt to give out a few business cards. But hell, don't give out ALL of it. you'b be worse than shit, you'd again become the 6k photog.

Agree. Although my case is a bit different.

This is what I did a few weeks back - I said NO simply because I was unsure if I am ready to plunge into photography as a side job, that is, with pay. I was asked by another pastor (former showbiz-personality-turned-pastor in one of the fastest growing congregations in the country) if I am willing to accept an assignment. With regards to capability, I firmly believe that I am NOT a PRO (yet) but what made him ask me is because he saw my works - which, I believe, best describes one's level.

Bottom line is, we don't have to plunge into photography just to earn a few bucks and in the process diminish its value. Period! I must say that I have invested (and continue to invest) in this craft - both in terms of equipment and in skills, yet I am not about to go into the paid photography just to recover these investments.

I may not probably give in to paid photography (well, at least at this point, I have no plans of going there yet). But it is also beyond my imagination to contribute to the degradation of photography as a ministry of documentation or as an art form.

I am still learning. We all are.


Thanks for this thread and thanks for allowing me to share my thoughts and experiences.

God bless.



24. If you CAN'T do it. Think first. If you don't want a challenge, learn to say no. If the project is an untried style yet belong to your core photographic competencies, then give yourself a day to decide.

It may pose as a serious challenge to your capability and you may want to push the limits, but do so only if your instincts tell you that you can do it. If you will still figure out if you can do the challenge, then you can't. Pushing your self to the limits is the one thing that separates the professionals from the rest - learn it.

Learning to say no without shooing the client away to the next photographer is an easy art. Either you have prepared a recommendation for another photog, or you are thinking of asking this photog to work WITH you or FOR you. Working with a fellow photog on a project is normal. Explore it.

this thread should have been a whole seminar on the business of photography. i feel its worth a couple of thousand pesos and in it we get to learn to make hundreds of thousands. really.:)

Hooorraayyyy!!!!! This is precisely the point.
After 100 posts and 26 rules of thought, you've finally arrived at the intended fruit.

Should we stop making out rules na?
Or keep 'em coming?

High price of fuel, high interest rates, high unemployment, and rising cost of production and easy accessibility and affordability of digital cameras...with all this happening around , what do you think will be the future or outlook of photography as a profession in the country?

High price of fuel, high interest rates, high unemployment, and rising cost of production and easy accessibility and affordability of digital cameras...with all this happening around , what do you think will be the future or outlook of photography as a profession in the country?

Photography as a profession has withstood wars, political turmoil, economic crisis and technology ever since it was invented. Too many of these crisis has sparked too many opportunities for those who keeps their focus and instead of being doomed has flourished.

This present condition we are in is no different.

We will withstand. We will remain.

and another one.

17. Keep your day jobs.

Definitely.

I don't to photography full time, but I do have a growing business. It's big enough to allow me little luxuries (like supporting the gear habit), but I still keep my day job in IT.

Great thread, Marlo, very informative even for people like myself (at this point, qualified to go for the "paid practice shoots" hehe). Glad to see others contributing too. :)

Hooorraayyyy!!!!! This is precisely the point.
After 100 posts and 26 rules of thought, you've finally arrived at the intended fruit.

Should we stop making out rules na?
Or keep 'em coming?

More sir! Keep those rules coming! :)

Me and my buddy photographers are keeping our eyes on this thread because it's been really helpful and very informative.

Okay!. If it helps anyone at all, then it makes sense.

28. If you've been charging 6k all your photog life, you will realize that 6k ain't no different from 20k or 30k at that as a take home fee.

Both rates came from your mouth.
Both rates your client will pay.
The difference between both is the NEW output you will provide and the extra effort you will deliver.

The extra effort is not too tasking on you anyway, because, to begin with, that was how you intended to do your work. More professional. Only this time, you're happier, and the money coming in allows you to smile more because you get more for almost the same effort. Now you are happy, and because you're happy everything you touch turns to gold. It's a positive thing.

Later on, you can afford a secretary or a studio or perhaps an in-house assistant photog. You WILL be able to afford these when you begin to up-rate your self. Remaining to be a 6k photog degrades you and your output in time.

29. Say it loud. "I AM A PHOTOGRAPHER!"

Study and learn. Keep studying your homework. Keep learning. Keep pushing the curve.
Be proud of your work.

30. Price yourself based on YOUR time and skill, not how much others are charging.

Do not insult yourself by pricing yourself too low. - DT

Okay!. If it helps anyone at all, then it makes sense.

28. ... and because you're happy everything you touch turns to gold. It's a positive thing.....

I really agree with this! A happy well paid photographer almost always turns out fantastic work compared to one who is just "contented" with what he got.... thus the mediocre work.

More than just being paid well, photographers should demand to be respected as professionals, as masters of their craft. We do not beg for a living, we earn it like everybody else. We went to the best schools we can afford and earned our degrees. We work endless hours honing our craft, and we invested on equipment, training ourselves and our team for the work that we love.

We are PHOTOGRAPHERS (as pointed out in item 29) ! We should stand proud, and respect each other and support each other.

If we respect ourselves and our fellows, then respect it is that we will get in return.

31. Stand proud, and respect each other and support each other.

If we respect ourselves and our fellows, then respect it is that we will get in return. - DA

31. Stand proud, and respect each other and support each other.

If we respect ourselves and our fellows, then respect it is that we will get in return. - DA

How come you are quoting on the people here? :Grin:

Maybe we should compile this as a handbook as part of a kit on our newly formed geyscale club?

As the majority of Philippine photographers mature and begin to compete on QUALITY, it will begin to become an industry that seeks to challenge itself continually, encouraging others to make the next step, always pushing each other to improve and achieve. When this happens, you will see insignias and labels on your offices and studios like this.

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee317/v8designstudio/DPP-Rating-LEVEL--1.jpg

And all clients will understand your worth.
And no longer will you need to justify the fees.
The CHANGE starts now.

As the majority of Philippine photographers mature and begin to compete on QUALITY, it will begin to become an industry that seeks to challenge itself continually, encouraging others to make the next step, always pushing each other to improve and achieve. When this happens, you will see insignias and labels on your offices and studios like this.

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee317/v8designstudio/DPP-Rating-LEVEL--1.jpg

And all clients will understand your worth.
And no longer will you need to justify the fees.
The CHANGE starts now.

wooohoooo! i like that. go greyscale!

Hey Jerwin, I know you're in the change phase, but this isn't for the Greyscale Club. This is for EVERYONE.

If this can be achieved, i'm sure the next step will be to get the next star.

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee317/v8designstudio/DPP-Rating-LEVEL-3-1.jpg

Hey Jerwin, I know you're in the change phase, but this isn't for the Greyscale Club. This is for EVERYONE.

If this can be achieved, i'm sure the next step will be to get the next star.

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee317/v8designstudio/DPP-Rating-LEVEL-3-1.jpg

ok this rocks. go philippine photographers!

hi sirs, very interesting and informative subject here, just a noob question, "what exactly is a 6K photog?"

;)

hi sirs, very interesting and informative subject here, just a noob question, "what exactly is a 6K photog?"

;)

Sir if I have it right, it's a representation of a stagnated photograpghic career. Whereas it doesn't really represent anyone with literally 6k price but anywhere in the field who's practice of photography is somewhat hurting the industry in a general sense. Hope I got it right. :)

yes.CHANGE should start now. photography industry deserves the respect that it should get as compared to the kind of respect clients give to other vendors such as the caterers and venues for one. when couple for a wedding inquire for a menu, they don't go "can you give discount for the P700/pax? especially when the food taste satisfies them. they don't ask venue owners to lower their rental fee when the place has impressed them.so why should photography service be given the least of importance in budgeting when it will be the only remaining living proof of all their long preparation with all their hard earned money after the event?

hmmmm, I'd like to give a difference stance on this issue. First, I am primarily a hobbyist and just wanted to earn from something that I love doing. But photography is not my bread and butter. But I would like to give a different perspective of this issue as being into business myself and started virtually from nothing. I can't say that I am a 'made businessman' now but I can say that the business that I am in has been profitable though I admit has not been without pain. And with the way I got started in this, is very much similar to the good points raised here. So here is my take:

First, FREE MARKET is the word for me. In this free market, there will always be pros, amateurs and 'hobbyist' types. That should always be a given and I dont believe that will change in the long term. Having three such entities in this photography business industry actually makes a good balance. And in the end, customers benefit from this balance. Ever since I started on being an entreprenuer, I always subscribe to the idea that what I do should always benefit my customers and my intended prospects. Price wars (I refuse to call it undermining prices) was for me a offensive tool that I can take advantage of when needed, instead of a defensive reaction. IN some VERY KEY transactions, you sometimes do take risks and sell below cost, and that means losing money. But you do that to leverage on something more beneficial to you in the long run (e.g. getting one high profile client to be part of your portfolio).

In a free market, small players are now a pain to bigger players. Especially those good/exceptional small players who know their game very well. For example, If I can cut my price 50% that of the price of the more established photographer and yet being able to provide the same quality service/products and still find it profitable, I can't go to hell right? :) I can't be concerned of course to the woes of other players because of what I did. From my point of view, I was able to satisfy my client's photographic desires and pocket and still do profit from it. In the end both the customer and the supplier are happy. Now, for those I have affected (obviously my competitors), they should adapt else they should starve. In every business, market share is one in the top agenda. To gain more share of the market, you got to keep eliminating your competitors (in some, you literally have to starve them) in ways that are legal. Improving one's product/services and having great pricing are definitely a few in the books. That is but natural in the business world so I dont quite agree that this issues are giving photography business a hard time.

Eventually, it will become survival of the fittest. A David and Goliath story (of course until David becomes another Goliath). It has been that way I believe since ancient trading began. So for those that can't adapt to the realities of today, I can only symphatize but I'd be far from agreeing that the dificulties that we now are experiencing are brought by the explosion of 'hobbyists and amateurs' wanting to take the market share from pros.
If I am now a Goliath, I'd definitely change my tactics to beat David in his own game. How? perhaps I can be smaller than david if being small is the only way to win.

Just a thought!

Yes, photog Trixie has a good point.

Although this is more than just wedding photography, in a wedding project, a couple spends, on average, just about 10% of their total event expense on their wedding photographs, unfortunately, about the same percent they spend on flowers.

Its a complicated spending pattern.

But the point has been made. EDUCATE the clients to think twice, hell, three times if possible, on the importance of the photographs of the event. All the details, the drama, the romance and the communal joy on a wedding when captured, becomes historical accounts of that couple.

When a couple spends willingly a million pesos for their wedding. The translation suggests that they are open to spending P100,000 of it for their right to be historically captured, and beautifully at that.

The clients are there. Many among us agree that this is not wishful market concoctions. This is for real and this is happening. Find them.

And make them proud of you!

hmmmm, I'd like to give a difference stance on this issue. First, I am primarily a hobbyist and just wanted to earn from something that I love doing. But photography is not my bread and butter. But I would like to give a different perspective of this issue as being into business myself and started virtually from nothing. I can't say that I am a 'made businessman' now but I can say that the business that I am in has been profitable though I admit has not been without pain. And with the way I got started in this, is very much similar to the good points raised here. So here is my take:

First, FREE MARKET is the word for me. In this free market, there will always be pros, amateurs and 'hobbyist' types. That should always be a given and I dont believe that will change in the long term. Having three such entities in this photography business industry actually makes a good balance. And in the end, customers benefit from this balance. Ever since I started on being an entreprenuer, I always subscribe to the idea that what I do should always benefit my customers and my intended prospects. Price wars (I refuse to call it undermining prices) was for me a offensive tool that I can take advantage of when needed, instead of a defensive reaction. IN some VERY KEY transactions, you sometimes do take risks and sell below cost, and that means losing money. But you do that to leverage on something more beneficial to you in the long run (e.g. getting one high profile client to be part of your portfolio).

In a free market, small players are now a pain to bigger players. Especially those good/exceptional small players who know their game very well. For example, If I can cut my price 50% that of the price of the more established photographer and yet being able to provide the same quality service/products and still find it profitable, I can't go to hell right? :) I can't be concerned of course to the woes of other players because of what I did. From my point of view, I was able to satisfy my client's photographic desires and pocket and still do profit from it. In the end both the customer and the supplier are happy. Now, for those I have affected (obviously my competitors), they should adapt else they should starve. In every business, market share is one in the top agenda. To gain more share of the market, you got to keep eliminating your competitors (in some, you literally have to starve them) in ways that are legal. Improving one's product/services and having great pricing are definitely a few in the books. That is but natural in the business world so I dont quite agree that this issues are giving photography business a hard time.

Eventually, it will become survival of the fittest. A David and Goliath story (of course until David becomes another Goliath). It has been that way I believe since ancient trading began. So for those that can't adapt to the realities of today, I can only symphatize but I'd be far from agreeing that the dificulties that we now are experiencing are brought by the explosion of 'hobbyists and amateurs' wanting to take the market share from pros.
If I am now a Goliath, I'd definitely change my tactics to beat David in his own game. How? perhaps I can be smaller than david if being small is the only way to win.

Just a thought!

Sir, I'm sure you are a good photographer but I would politely disagree. We as photographers must look at our community as a real community. We must care for this community. Although I must admit that before, I have the same mindset as this. Like cutting the competitor down. But when it begins happening to you, you'd actually feel you should have not done something like that. I don't want to think like a beast because eventually it will consume you and you will become one.

Sir, I'm sure you are a good photographer but I would politely disagree. We as photographers must look at our community as a real community. We must care for this community. Although I must admit that before, I have the same mindset as this. Like cutting the competitor down. But when it begins happening to you, you'd actually feel you should have not done something like that. I don't want to think like a beast because eventually it will consume you and you will become one.

that is the hard part. going into business sometimes will consume you. and believe me, the most that the community can do is to appeal to everyone. getting the results the community wants is not entirely up to the community. it is in the hands of the customers. besides, we dont dictate what our products are worth. they do.

@totogamboa

coming from a battle tested business man, your post is the most realistic and sensible assessment on how to be engaged in business that photographers should learn instead of keeping on complaining.

they should learn how to sharpen their pencils (one of the most probable reason to be able to lower the price and still make a modest profit and not shoot for 'tubong lugaw' profit) like a 6k pesos photographers.

being a cry baby will not earn you respect much more if you keep on asking for it instead of working to earn it.

that is the hard part. going into business sometimes will consume you. and believe me, the most that the community can do is to appeal to everyone. getting the results the community wants is not entirely up to the community. it is in the hands of the customers. besides, we dont dictate what our products are worth. they do.

Yes. Even those who are already established are very disappointed. It's like we-should-have-not-got-into-this-business kind of hard. Sir, I'm one of those who would want to help to make the community become stronger. Although the reality we face tells us it is useless. But I'm sure there will be people with the same sentiment who hopes tomorrow may be a better day for all of us. God bless.

I think people who wants to be photographer should receive informal training first on how photogarphy as a whole should be done before they even get a hold on a camera? wishful thinking?:Grin:

IMHO

with the current scenario on our nation economy ... this one is the dagger

There's the class A, the B, the C, and the Classes D and E. Imagine a couple living along the riles who are madly inlove with each other, and they decided to get married. Let's say they are both earning minimum wages. If a wedding coverage was standardized to cost 50K-ish and above, don't you think it wouldn't be far fetched for them to spend the huge amount of money to have their special day immortlized?
If there are no more 6K photogs to take these kind of jobs, then photography will be an exclusive privilege only for those who can afford.

it is in the hands of the customers. besides, we dont dictate what our products are worth. they do.

Yes. Even those who are already established are very disappointed. It's like we-should-have-not-got-into-this-business kind of hard. Sir, I'm one of those who would want to help to make the community become stronger. Although the reality we face tells us it is useless. But I'm sure there will be people with the same sentiment who hopes tomorrow may be a better day for all of us. God bless.

True. But the ball game has changed. The rules has changed. High end photography now is almost commoditized. And the big players should realize that.

I would agree that it is a lot harder now, but unless they adapt to the new rules (thanks to DSLR makers and kuripot customers), they will succumb to the harsh realities and they will only be a part of the great history. What they can do is to find ways so they can stand out of the pack and still be attractive enough for would-be customers.

The community might be able to dictate on the photogs but will it be able to influence on how a customer decides to let go of their hard-earned money? I doubt the community will be able to do that. The customer will always find ways and means to have their memories on photographs on their own terms and capacity .. not ours.

True. But the ball game has changed. The rules has changed. High end photography now is almost commoditized. And the big players should realize that.

I would agree that it is a lot harder now, but unless they adapt to the new rules (thanks to DSLR makers and kuripot customers), they will succumb to the harsh realities and they will only be a part of the great history. What they can do is to find ways so they can stand out of the pack and still be attractive enough for would-be customers.

The community might be able to dictate on the photogs but will it be able to influence on how a customer decides to let go of their hard-earned money? I doubt the community will be able to do that. The customer will always find ways and means to have their memories on photographs on their own terms and capacity .. not ours.

Yes sir. I think we both get it. I mean what we are trying to say. This is called balance. Two opposing ideas in harmony. It can only be balance. :)

Dennis: As mentioned earlier, seeking photographic services is a want, not a need. Setting a target market for your business sets your price range as well. Just the same, if I have 10 bucks in my pocket for coffee, I would go to a carinderia for a cup of it rather than enter UCC, for example.

While as a country, the Phil may be considered "poor", the fact is, just look around this forum, virtually everyone is carrying over 10K worth of equipment AS A HOBBY. Everyone around town has a cellphone. It's rather futile to consider a business that'll target the homeless and the Ayalas at the same time.

Part of the problem with these kind of businesses (non-object-permanence products) is the stigma of "you just pressed the button with a good cam" mindset. While we can't fault clients of thinking that (hey, if they knew how hard it is, they'd probably be doing it or understand your pricing, right?) photography is merely a button-pressing task, it's more unacceptable if fellow photographers follow this line of thinking when they offer their services.

A lot of side-line photographers do think that way, "laway lang puhunan, may cam na ako dati pa" (trans: I just offered lip-service, I have the equipment long ago anyway) and they offer a low price thinking that it's already a profit since they can charge the client for prints/CDs at cost (if they even offer it).

Many think "My gear costs P80k total, if I just do 10 gigs of 8k each, I'm set!"....

One thing most hobbyist forget is that they always ignore the PRICE of their TIME. Their time spent on the actual shoot, their time spend to gather the skill, their time spent when meeting with clients for price/review/selection, their travel time to venues, their time spent starting at their computer screen.

This is a service business, charge your TIME.

david, i remember a couple of clients asking me before why i'm charging that much. i just told them, you're paying for my time. :)

David did not kill Goliath because he was good with a slingsot!
David was the best the military had at the time, he was no military soldier, more a rogue warrior. A mercenary of sorts.

He then took the kingship from Saul and made it his. He killed Saul afterwards.
He killed 2 of his sons who wanted to kill him to become king.
Eventually, Solomon, became king after David, because he was his son from Bathseba,
whose spouse David killed too.

We shouldn't be here debating about how to kill each others businesses.

We should be uplifting everyone, and in the process find more opportunities for the 6k photog to grow.

When our profits are good enough to make us smile, I think we should let others smile just the same. Everyone wants a good smile. This can not happen if all we ever think about is how to kill the competitor by the competition that is price. .

One thing most hobbyist forget is that they always ignore the PRICE of their TIME. Their time spent on the actual shoot, their time spend to gather the skill, their time spent when meeting with clients for price/review/selection, their travel time to venues, their time spent starting at their computer screen.

This is a service business, charge your TIME.

yup got the point guys ... but what about for those apprentice or beginners that are willing of "free" of charge for there time in exchange for experience or actual trainings and yet the client will see there work and astounded, then the client will do the pricing even though it is just free for the one whose getting some experience...

by the way i'm just a hobbyist :D and this is not my actual experience ..

I would agree that it is a lot harder now, but unless they adapt to the new rules (thanks to DSLR makers and kuripot customers), they will succumb to the harsh realities and they will only be a part of the great history. What they can do is to find ways so they can stand out of the pack and still be attractive enough for would-be customers.

and one should learn to be 'smart' and 'clever' to succeed in the present business environment.

"if you are 'smart', why are you not rich?'

David did not kill Goliath because he was good with a slingsot!
David was the best the military had at the time, he was no military soldier, more a rogue warrior. A mercenary of sorts.

He then took the kingship from Saul and made it his. He killed Saul afterwards.
He killed 2 of his sons who wanted to kill him to become king.
Eventually, Solomon, became king after David, because he was his son from Bathseba,
whose spouse David killed too.

We shouldn't be here debating about how to kill each others businesses.

We should be uplifting everyone, and in the process find more opportunities for the 6k photog to grow.

When our profits are good enough to make us smile, I think we should let others smile just the same. Everyone wants a good smile. This can not happen if all we ever think about is how to kill the competitor by the competition that is price. .

Let us be realistic enough Sir. We can't all be up there, we can't all be down there. When I bought my Nikon, I have 2 choices. one with a respectable price (the black one), and the other was the price that I can afford (the grey one). I am sure the blacks wanted to eliminate the greys (and i dont think this is bad in the true sense of the word). But free market distates what is best for us. THat is why customers do have options. And we as customers are benefiting from it. Imagine if there is a community dictating on how these vendors play. We wont surely like it and we will find ourselves perhaps buying through other means. In the end, we, the customer, will prevail.

and one should learn to be 'smart' and 'clever' to succeed in the present business environment.

"if you are 'smart', why are you not rich?'

goodness. now i know why i'm poor. :D

goodness. now i know why i'm poor. :D

heheheh. me too! :) And I agree, I guess I am not smart enough. Yet!

heheheh. me too! :) And I agree, I guess I am not smart enough. Yet!

Kudos to us! :Grin:

and one should learn to be 'smart' and 'clever' to succeed in the present business environment.

I believe so too. If ever i get 'booted out' in the business where I am in, I have no one else to blame but myself. I would readily tell myself, "I never learned".

Kudos to us! :Grin:

We just have to accept that there are really people smarter than us. :Grin: Otherwise it would be a boring world. Imagine where everyone has a DSLR and knows how to shoot like smart photog gurus like Librodo, Avila, Jallorina just to name a few.

We just have to accept that there are really people smarter than us. :Grin: Otherwise it would be a boring world. Imagine where everyone has a DSLR and knows how to shoot like smart photog gurus like Librodo, Avila, Jallorina just to name a few.

Yes. They are masters.

"if you are 'smart', why are you not rich?'

not everything in life is about money, unless "rich" refers to something else

peace!

not everything in life is about money, unless "rich" refers to something else

peace!

i agree. although i know i can be 'smart', i choose not to be.

but i won't deny that i envy the 'smart' people with lots of money. just look around.

True. But the ball game has changed. The rules has changed. High end photography now is almost commoditized. And the big players should realize that.

I would agree that it is a lot harder now, but unless they adapt to the new rules (thanks to DSLR makers and kuripot customers), they will succumb to the harsh realities and they will only be a part of the great history. What they can do is to find ways so they can stand out of the pack and still be attractive enough for would-be customers.

The community might be able to dictate on the photogs but will it be able to influence on how a customer decides to let go of their hard-earned money? I doubt the community will be able to do that. The customer will always find ways and means to have their memories on photographs on their own terms and capacity .. not ours.


I remember how the community inflluenced Caltex to change its own terms and conditions on their latest Photo Contest. I was skeptical, as you would see on the post i made on that thread a few months back. But I was wrong. I was dead wrong.

I shut my big mouth.

A lot can be done when we all come to grip each other's arms and push to our advantage the opportunities presented to us.

Doing nothing, flowing like the wind, on all directions, would be a passionate life in photography without passionately living it.

I remember how the community inflluenced Caltex to change its own terms and conditions on their latest Photo Contest. I was skeptical, as you would see on the post i made on that thread a few months back. But I was wrong. I was dead wrong.

I shut my big mouth.

A lot can be done when we all come to grip each other's arms and push to our advantage the opportunities presented to us.

Doing nothing, flowing like the wind, on all directions, would be a passionate life in photography without passionately living it.

This is what I was advocating at the : Montalban: Photoshoot warning thread. Pls clik this link:http://www.digitalphotographer.com.ph/forum/showthread.php?t=15837&page=8

Whoa!!! 15 pages??? it is a long read but worth reading it...Nice thread Mr. Moya...:)

I remember how the community inflluenced Caltex to change its own terms and conditions on their latest Photo Contest. I was skeptical, as you would see on the post i made on that thread a few months back. But I was wrong. I was dead wrong.

if the community we are referring to is the community of photographers here in the philippines, right now you have just divided them into groups - the 6k pesos photographers
and the photographers who know their own rates group. basing our estimate on the 80-20 natural law the 6k pesos photographers group outnumber the photographers who know their own rates group.

and it seems that the 6kpesos photographers group is willing to follow the dictates of the market/customers.

but if the photographers who know their own rate group wants to dictate their rates to market/customers, they are not being prevented to do it (at your risk).

if the community we are referring to is the community of photographers here in the philippines, right now you have just divided them into groups - the 6k pesos photographers
and the photographers who know their own rates group. basing our estimate on the 80-20 natural law the 6k pesos photographers group outnumber the photographers who know their own rates group.

and it seems that the 6kpesos photographers group is willing to follow the dictates of the market/customers.

but if the photographers who know their own rate group wants to dictate their rates to market/customers, they are not being prevented to do it (at your risk).

There are no groups divided in this house. It would be wise to understand that the thread is about helping the 6k photog increase his TAKE HOME PAY. The 6k photog does not exist, it is a term currently used to refer to photographers who wants to shoot and get paid but are having problems reaching their goals and their dreams because they DON'T KNOW how to rate themselves. This is a thread that seeks to provide hints to do just that - addressed by providing them ideas on how to INCREASE THEIR TAKE and similarly, the OUTPUT required to justify it.

The natural law you are referring to can not be used as an issue to REMAIN AS A 6k PHOTOG in this community simply because it is a law. Laws remain true and essential and binding upon society, i agree, but i do not see how RAISING ONE'S TAKE HOME PAY can break this law.

While evenly admitting that the law may be true, just as the law of supply and demand is, the thread merges ways and means to justify INCREASING RATES based on performance and output and the willingness to do so and not statistics that instead pull down the hearts and minds of the photog who wants to change.

Nobody remains 18 years old for the rest of their lives.

32. When the going gets tough. The WINNER PHOTOGRAPHER gets going.

When hurdles are on your doors. Jump!

33. Lowballing doesn't always gets the job and it may even give an impression to clients that you're pricing your services that way because you can only produce LOW quality output (which isn't always true for everyone). And even if you get the job, it's hard to charge higher for succeeding projects with the same clients. - CA

if the community we are referring to is the community of photographers here in the philippines, right now you have just divided them into groups - the 6k pesos photographers
and the photographers who know their own rates group. basing our estimate on the 80-20 natural law the 6k pesos photographers group outnumber the photographers who know their own rates group.

and it seems that the 6kpesos photographers group is willing to follow the dictates of the market/customers.

but if the photographers who know their own rate group wants to dictate their rates to market/customers, they are not being prevented to do it (at your risk).

If you want to follow this 80-20 rule to another conclusion then it's that the 80% of the photographers who are in the 6K bracket are earning 20% of what's out there to earn, and the 20% of the photographers who charge what they are worth are getting 80% of the pie. I think I know which 20% I would like to belong to and which 80% earning capacity I would like to be in.

@Nino - I am also monitoring this very interesting thread and I am sorry that I am a bit behind as I don't have full-time Internet access where I am.

@Mario - congratulations. You are doing a great service to photographers! Thank you very much and keep those rules coming.

sorry, that should be Marlo, not Mario. I really should use my reading glasses. :D

if the community we are referring to is the community of photographers here in the philippines, right now you have just divided them into groups - the 6k pesos photographers
and the photographers who know their own rates group. basing our estimate on the 80-20 natural law the 6k pesos photographers group outnumber the photographers who know their own rates group.

and it seems that the 6kpesos photographers group is willing to follow the dictates of the market/customers.

but if the photographers who know their own rate group wants to dictate their rates to market/customers, they are not being prevented to do it (at your risk).

I do not believe that there is an intention to divide photographers into groups, but we do put ourselves on a chosen spot in the spectrum from lowest to highest, but that we move up and down that spectrum. All that I am seeing Marlo do is to help "push" people to the top end of the spectrum by sharing insights on how to price, how to improve ourselves so we can deserve the better rates, and how to negotiate for the rates that we deserve. Hopefully, we will listen to what he is sharing with us. He is giving us valuable lessons on the business of photography.

If you want to follow this 80-20 rule to another conclusion then it's that the 80% of the photographers who are in the 6K bracket are earning 20% of what's out there to earn, and the 20% of the photographers who charge what they are worth are getting 80% of the pie. I think I know which 20% I would like to belong to and which 80% earning capacity I would like to be in.

i agree, because it's a natural law. even if the economic condition change for the better and all the photographers follow the commandments given in this thread, the proportion will still be approximately at 80-20. 20 percent will still be earning 80 per cent of the total pie.

the sad thing is the present economic condition is very bad and almost 100 per cent of us are being affected (income wise).

it look's like many of the 20 per cent of those making the 80 per cent earnings are now complaining and they are blaming what they call the 6k pesos photographers.

I remember how the community inflluenced Caltex to change its own terms and conditions on their latest Photo Contest. I was skeptical, as you would see on the post i made on that thread a few months back. But I was wrong. I was dead wrong.

I shut my big mouth.

A lot can be done when we all come to grip each other's arms and push to our advantage the opportunities presented to us.

Doing nothing, flowing like the wind, on all directions, would be a passionate life in photography without passionately living it.

I saw your post on that caltex thread. You did the right thing. But i dont see the relevance of that thread on this, other than the fact that we all can voice out our minds in this very democratic country everytime we see it fit.

Nonetheless, as I have said earlier, we can only appeal to the photogs but I really doubt if we can dictate on the customers on how they should spend their money on photography. I am not saying that we stop advocating and improving the lives of everybody, we can all try, and I wish everyone a great time going into this business.

I just hope that this advocacy is genuinely into protecting the interests of everybody and not by those who are currently affected negatively by this problem. But I do hope that we also respect if a lot of 6k photographers are still hell bent on conquering the market with their guns blazing with the intent to replace the big players on top of this photography food chain. I mean, we have to be aware that NOT all 6k photographers see things the way we do. We will see if indeed, what they do now, will change the future of photography business. In my mind though, they have already effected that change. Whether it will turn out good for all of us, that remains to be seen.

it look's like many of the 20 per cent of those making the 80 per cent earnings are now complaining and they are blaming what they call the 6k pesos photographers.

Sir Rudy, you maybe right in saying this but i don't see this thread as that. I see this as offering assistance to those photographers who are working so hard to earn a living but are not getting the compensation they deserve for their hard work.

The photographers are pricing their services right need not worry about the "6k photographer" because the latter needs to work at least 4x more just to be at par with the earnings/profit of the former.

just my 2 cents worth.. :)

it look's like many of the 20 per cent of those making the 80 per cent earnings are now complaining and they are blaming what they call the 6k pesos photographers.

Yeah. And it is very clear that there is a valid and potent threat to the established players. It is understandable though that some have already pushed the panic button. Also for me, it wasn't the 6k photogs that have been causing all these to them. Technology did enable some leveling of playing field, thereby allowing more people to get into previously elite craft. The way I see it, the more established photo businesses just still refuse to admit that what they are in now is not as lucrative as before.

We can all go back on this thread once the prices of most DSLRs go below 15k and currently affordable lenses become more affordable. We might find 6k photographers to be very expensive when that time comes.

Sir Rudy, you maybe right in saying this but i don't see this thread as that. I see this as offering assistance to those photographers who are working so hard to earn a living but are not getting the compensation they deserve for their hard work. :)

i appreciate in what you see as the intention of this thread. but please don't blame the 6k pesos photographers for the other photographers problem. majority of the 6k pesos photographers i guess, like all the other photographers in business also want to get a 'decent' profit and will be happy if this thread can really help them.

i appreciate in what you see as the intention of this thread. but please don't blame the 6k pesos photographers for the other photographers problem. majority of the 6k pesos photographers i guess, like all the other photographers in business also want to get a 'decent' profit and will be happy if this thread can really help them.

I agree. The 6k photographers should not be blamed for the problems of other photographers.

I agree. The 6k photographers should not be blamed for the problems of other photographers.

Sir, nobody is blaming anybody. All of these are all for discussions sake. We all give our piece and we hope to arrive at the middle. Not so that the middle be followed, but because we can't follow only one idea whereas it would called something like authoritarianism so the other must not cease to exist so we won't fall into something like authoritarianism. That's why these opposing idea must be in constant challenge with each other. It's an ideal method for a state.

Is it really that the 20% are blaming the 80% as they claim? Or is it really that the 80% is in a self destructive pattern as claimed by the 20%? Now where is the middle of this? The answer is none. Because the middle is just an ideal state (which is actually non-existent) but this where the place no idea overpower the other, and it is not a perfect answer.

Admittedly I'll advocate the 20%. But that's because I see that even the gearmakers comes at play with this. I am probably taking them into consideration. But seeing that doesn't mean this strategy gets everything in consideration. In fact, no one's idea can put everything into consideration. But the part must be played.

I don't know what you make of this. I probably read too much political books. :) Hope I don't get in hot water on this. :Grin:

Sir, nobody is blaming anybody. All of these are all for discussions sake.

I agree that no one should be blamed for what is happening to the profession. Instead of photographers blaming each other, they should actually be working together. And this is why I like Marlo's inputs - they are meant to help and unite, not blame or divide.

Besides, there are too many factors that are putting pressure on prices to go down - the economy, technology, software development, lack of standards, lack of unity, negative developments in certain industries, etc., that it would be a waste of time to blame fellow photographers. These negative factors present threats to everyone - no matter where we stand in the spectrum. It would be better to take Marlo's suggestions (or rules) on how we can all move up, instead of putting us on separate camps.

Just a bit of sharing on the old times: When we were just starting, we got a lot of help from more established photographers. The top advertising photography studio then was Lens Center, and one of its photographers was Danny Feliciano. He actually allowed me to copy their rate sheet and to base our pricing on theirs, albeit a bit lower because our studio was not as well-equipped, and we were not as experienced. He shared what he knew. The reason I am mentioning this story is because it shows that established photographers can work with photographers who are just starting (the 6K photographer?), and vice versa. We could say that we were one of the 6K (at today's value, factoring in inflation through the years) photographers, but we worked hard - with help from other photographers - to move up.

Let's join hands, and let us appreciate the insights that Marlo is sharing with us.:)

i appreciate in what you see as the intention of this thread. but please don't blame the 6k pesos photographers for the other photographers problem. majority of the 6k pesos photographers i guess, like all the other photographers in business also want to get a 'decent' profit and will be happy if this thread can really help them.

Photog Rudy, you couldn't have said this any better.

This IS what this thread is all about.

34. The road to a bountiful harvest is a bit steep. But the road is there for anyone to take. Take it.

Do not allow others to influence you at how little you can do or how you belong and should remain little. The wise is courageous. The doubtful photographer discourages.

35. The lucrative result that you want can be achieved. It HAS been achieved by photogs before, it can be achieved again after. Make yourself a WINNER PHOTOGRAPHER.

No one among us can tell what tomorrow will offer, so the best way to win the future is to win today. The photog that holds tomorrow's promise is the one that sends out the invoice today for the hard work done yesterday.

Procrastination delays success.

Photog Rudy, you couldn't have said this any better.

This IS what this thread is all about.

If this is the case, the title of the thread should be changed to avoid the connotation that 6k photogs are a questionable breed and the way I see it, the title carries a negative connotation thus the reactions. Perhaps, I can consider myself to be among this group and the thread just happen to strike some sensitiv issues.

36. In a community that has one flag, it makes little sense to know which is the wrong side, or which is the right. It makes sense to raise the flag together.

When you have touched the sensibilities of your fellow photogs. Apologize.

If by the suggestions here, the words, the terms, the connotations, the implications, have slighted sensibilites. Please accept my apologies.

To photog Toto Gamboa, please accept my sincere apologies. It is not my intention, for that matter, the thread, to belittle the 6k photog.

This will always remain FOR the photogs. OF the photogs, and BY the photogs.

You inputs will remain here. It will be dissected by everyone for years to come. And everyone will learn. Thank you. Please add some more. They will all be numbered as the thread progresses.

Madame Moderator, thank you. A pleasure.

Let me share a story to everyone.

On a conversation with a CEO of a distribution company yesterday, he shared a story i can only describe as a winner.

Having been a distributor of high end photographic equipment, he chanced upon a conversation between one of his clients, whose name i will not mention, but whose name perhaps all among you rings a bell. Client walks in to the photog's studio. Photog welcomes the client. Gestures for coffee or tea were made, client was made comfortable and conversation ensued. Client eventually entered the cost issue. Client openly discusses how expensive the photog asks for his fees.

Photog bluntly says without blinking an eye.

"We've been working together for a long time. I have not turned you down. The fee is just for my time".

Silence.

Client computes through the silence.

And client shakes hands with the photog, proud and content.

Photog is left with a cheque.

All seven digits of it!

Masterfully crafted execution.

That could be you next time. Go get it!

37. Photographers CAN work WITH photographers.

Get help from more established photographers. -HC

To photog Toto Gamboa, please accept my sincere apologies. It is not my intention, for that matter, the thread, to belittle the 6k photog.

This will always remain FOR the photogs. OF the photogs, and BY the photogs.

You inputs will remain here. It will be dissected by everyone for years to come. And everyone will learn. Thank you. Please add some more. They will all be numbered as the thread progresses.

Hey Marlo, no need for this. Won't accept it, no harm done naman in my case. I was jsut trying to show a different perspective. We are ok :) I guess it is healthy for us to sometimes disagree whether we like the outcome or not. Most often, it can bring us to greater things. Just proceed!

Cheers to this thread!

38. Greater things CAN be accomplished when we understand each other. When we are united. When we find time to discuss our own issues and learn. In the end, we realize the importance of each other.

Photographers can be paid in different ways, and in order for the client not to overwhelm you with money talk, especially if you find it hard to talk ABOUT money, here are a few suggestions you might want to use and think about - BEFORE that client knocks on your door.

Price can be arranged based on HOW the images will be used.

Example : If you were tasked to photograph DIATABS for a national campaign. Chances are, by using your imagination, the images will be used on posters, flyers, maybe on diatabs delivery boxes, maybe on the delivery fleets, on billboards or bumper stickers and so on that will be printed and distributed and used nationwide. This will tell you that the END RESULT demanded from you is of the best quality. IF the client has already knocked on your doors, chances are, you are already shooting superb images, and already knows the principles of good photography.

This means you will need to consider resolution (among others) because many elements of media are printed in many different ways. To use the highest possible resolution, you will need to have to use the best possible equipment.

The best possible equipment can be rented or purchased. If you have these equipments in your studio, then you have paid much for them. Even if the client has the money to buy those equipment, still, they can not buy the talent and skill you have.

All clients are intelligent spenders, and there are two things they consider most.
1. How they can spend the LEAST money on you, OR
2. How they can use their money to pay you and get the results in the LEAST amount of their time.

Time IS gold. And business is always a two way street.

So shooting Diatabs, you might want to dig deep in your passionate photographer's mind and figure out a way to get the images you want that will enable Diatabs to sell their merchandise effectively. When you imagine how many Filipinos there are in the Philippines and how many of those would use Diatabs because they saw the images you've created, then perhaps you can begin to rate your self properly without being laughed at.

Six-digit pay cheques are divided into 3 levels.
The Low 6.
The Median 6. and
The High 6.

When you realize the opportunities presented to you this way, admittedly, it would be VERY hard to give your services for 6k.

Price can similarly be arranged based on WHAT is required from you.

A wedding coverage requires A LOT of your time and attention to detail and patience. There is one common denominator among wedding photographers and their assistants - they all need Alaxan at the end of the day.

Wedding photography demands a lot from you.

Other than concentrating your costs based on the usual deliverables (photo book, images on DVD, archiving, posters, printing, etc), take some of your time detailing all of these expenses one by one, to include, how much you want to get paid on a per hour basis and how many hours it will take you to finish the job, how much money should be allotted to your assistant photogs, lightsmen, download staff and other personnel, how much you want to add for using your equipment (total equipment cost used on the event x 10%), how much for annex expenses as gas, phone calls, food, etc. How much for post production effort and time, software, computer use, lights and power expenses, freight and delivery costs.

A winner photographer would factor all these into his rate sheet, discuss openly and honestly and will be able to convincingly make his client agree with him. Not all will agree, but the honesty and cleverness will make MOST agree.

Pay cheques :
Mid-5.
High-5.
Low-6.
Mid-6.

Getting paid for your photography service is honestly quite easy. However, unless you are happy with TOKENS of appreciation dole outs, the photographer who seeks to inch himself up the stage would really need to provide "official receipts" to their clients so the dole outs can be commercially translated to official photog fees. A legitimate photography business allows you to do REPEAT BUSINESSES from clients. Freelance work without the attached Official Receipts will eventually lead you to rethink this issue.

When you realize the opportunities presented to you this way, admittedly, it would be VERY hard to give your services for 6k.

Bro Marlo, allow me to give another perspective hoping to help clarify more of these:

So to my fellow 6k photogs,

Being new, small, virtually an unknown in the photography services industry, you also have to be aware of the following: (1) know your capabilities, limitations and inherent advantages; (2) know how your competitors would do their best to get the opportunity away from your reach; (3) You also need to know how customers decide on letting go of their money.

KNOW YOUR CAPABILITIES, LIMITATIONS, and INHERENT ADVANTAGES

Perhaps knowing what you can do and cannot do is the easiest among the things you need to know since you are the only one who can clearly gauge yourself if you really can deliver in terms of photography, logistics and time. But most start-ups and newbie who want to get their hands on this business sometime do not know that they also have inherent advantages. Being new and small can also be advantageous. By being small, you can be nimble, dynamic and flexible. By being new, you still have not acquired the bad habits and probably you are more enthusiastic and energetic in exploring new stuff and breaking old norms.

know how your competitors would do their best to get the opportunity away from your reach

In the business world, you have to compete. For every piece of opportunity out there, most often, you will have to outdo your competitors. Else, you will be left out to dry.

Know who they are and what they do best. They have inherent advantages that you still don’t have. Most often, they are established and probably have extensive knowledge and experience in the job being required of them. Most often, they have real portfolios to boot. Don’t fall into a belief that they will be there to help you or make you feel better. You can test that statement if you happen to be involved in a bid with the two of you having to compete on getting the same project. Believe me; each of you will outdo one another to get the project. But don’t think of it as something negative. Things are just like that when you compete for something of value. It is a healthy exercise. Though if you have a faint of heart, you might as well reconsider going into this business or any other. You might well be ok with an 8 to 5 job setup.

YOU ALSO NEED TO KNOW HOW CUSTOMERS DECIDE ON LETTING GO OF THEIR MONEY

Customers, no matter how predictable they are, are always unpredictable. They are always good at messing up your financial plans J In short; they would always want to get their money’s worth no matter how big or small the amount is involved. Their purchasing behaviors vary. Some prefer to go for high profile photogs despite the fact that they know they can get the same product and services from someone unknown and at a lower price. Some would go around comparing prices and carefully decide on whom to tap. Some Just don’t know what they are getting into.

SO WHAT NOW?

By all means, use your advantages to the maximum. If you happen to get hold of an opportunity to possibly get into a photography project, use your advantages. For example, by being “small”, you probably don’t have the overhead yet of having to pay the monthly bills associated with maintaining an office, studio or showroom for your business. Bigger players would charge their clients to cover for such expenses. Now see it as an inherent advantage. Naturally, you will have the capability to bring down prices. But if you feel guilty that you are bringing down the entire business of photography if you cut your prices rationally, you can charge like those bigger players and see what will happen next. Big players don’t charge for their time. They charge for their time and a lot more. Check out in what area you can compete with them in terms of costs/prices. By offering your prices within the same range with that of the more established players, you are not helping your business any further. You are helping the business of bigger players grow some more.

If you are still building up your portfolio, it won’t harm a bit if you entice key prospects with your very very low prices (like if you charge 6k compared for a 100k price from a big player). I still consider it a strategy to keep the ball rolling. But don’t overdo it. Be selective. But It doesn’t mean you have to cut down on quality and delivery too, so if you can maintain the same high quality, well and good. If you can’t, you are doomed. But pricing is not the only area where you can unleash your power of being new and small. As I have mentioned, you can be very dynamic and flexible. Some great businessmen just have the talent in wheeling and dealing. They have mastered the art of compromising. Do make x-deals if you see it fit. For example, you can ask the prospect if you can use them as part of your portfolio in exchange of something beneficial to them (e.g. low price, or some freebies). If you are confident and desperate enough, you can give the project away for free. Or, the way I do, I’d give the client a very irresistible offer that they get the entire project for free if they don’t like my deliveries at all. But of course, they get it free in exchange for a very detailed explanation why they don’t like my output. All of these strategies will benefit you in the long run.

You can do all these while you build up your empire in photography business. Sometimes, you have to gamble and lose money to gain something in exchange. I know you will hurt your competitors in the process, especially if you succeed on each and every way you get into, but mind you, if you don’t do this, others will and you will be left out with nothing to gain.

I hope I do make sense.

[quote=totogamboa;445917

SO WHAT NOW?

By all means, use your advantages to the maximum. If you happen to get hold of an opportunity to possibly get into a photography project, use your advantages. For example, by being “small”, you probably don’t have the overhead yet of having to pay the monthly bills associated with maintaining an office, studio or showroom for your business. Bigger players would charge their clients to cover for such expenses. Now see it as an inherent advantage. Naturally, you will have the capability to bring down prices. But if you feel guilty that you are bringing down the entire business of photography if you cut your prices rationally, you can charge like those bigger players and see what will happen next. Big players don’t charge for their time. They charge for their time and a lot more. Check out in what area you can compete with them in terms of costs/prices. By offering your prices within the same range with that of the more established players, you are not helping your business any further. You are helping the business of bigger players grow some more.

If you are still building up your portfolio, it won’t harm a bit if you entice key prospects with your very very low prices (like if you charge 6k compared for a 100k price from a big player). I still consider it a strategy to keep the ball rolling. But don’t overdo it. Be selective. But It doesn’t mean you have to cut down on quality and delivery too, so if you can maintain the same high quality, well and good. If you can’t, you are doomed. But pricing is not the only area where you can unleash your power of being new and small. As I have mentioned, you can be very dynamic and flexible. Some great businessmen just have the talent in wheeling and dealing. They have mastered the art of compromising. Do make x-deals if you see it fit. For example, you can ask the prospect if you can use them as part of your portfolio in exchange of something beneficial to them (e.g. low price, or some freebies). If you are confident and desperate enough, you can give the project away for free. Or, the way I do, I’d give the client a very irresistible offer that they get the entire project for free if they don’t like my deliveries at all. But of course, they get it free in exchange for a very detailed explanation why they don’t like my output. All of these strategies will benefit you in the long run.

You can do all these while you build up your empire in photography business. Sometimes, you have to gamble and lose money to gain something in exchange. I know you will hurt your competitors in the process, especially if you succeed on each and every way you get into, but mind you, if you don’t do this, others will and you will be left out with nothing to gain.

I hope I do make sense.[/quote]

that is the secret of HOW TO PLAY 'SMART'.

"By offering your prices within the same range with that of the more established players, you are not helping your business any further. You are helping the business of bigger players grow some more". (IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THIS YOU ARE NOT "SMART').

.....By offering your prices within the same range with that of the more established players, you are not helping your business any further. You are helping the business of bigger players grow some more.....




I like the way you put into words what most of us cannot express fully. I strongly agree.

That is a simple marketing lesson. For any product or service to enter an industry, it should consider bringing down the price and not compete head on with the big players. If you're a home based business producing your own toothpaste, it's common sense that you cannot price your product same as the big brands, ie. colgate and close up. Probably someday you can, but not today when you are just starting. By pricing your product low, you may have a better chance of getting a share of the market.

Cheers!

Client eventually entered the cost issue. Client openly discusses how expensive the photog asks for his fees.

"We've been working together for a long time. I have not turned you down. The fee is just for my time".

Silence.

Client computes through the silence.

And client shakes hands with the photog, proud and content.

Photog is left with a cheque.

All seven digits of it!

Masterfully crafted execution.

That could be you next time. Go get it!

7 digits for a shoot is a lot of money, specially for a direct client shoot. but i dont understand your story. care to elaborate?

How many photogs in the Philippines would get a seven digit one-time-payment in their entire career?

And OUCH! i'm one of those 6k photographers, i don't see how can i jack up my price for a less than two hour event like contract signing (which they can do with their P&S camera) or groundbreakings and topping-off's for their PR use. Yes my time and TALENT/SKILL is worth so much more but it should work both ways. For product shoots, ads, menus, brochures, billboards... that's a different ballgame.

Both Marlo and Toto have a point here... now let's get back to REALITY and discuss this over a cup of coffee.:D

7 digits for a shoot is a lot of money, specially for a direct client shoot. but i dont understand your story. care to elaborate?

hehe. that is not a lot if you include 2 digits on the right side of the decimal point. :Grin:

Seriously, I also wonder if these are actually the prevailing rates of bigtime photography project in the country. No wonder many would want to enter the photgraphy circuit and make money out of it. Non wonder too why many feel threatened by the emergence of 6k photogs.

It is kind of temping to ask a similar question, are you a photographer worth a million pesos and in the process know the answers. but that would be OT here i guess.

i AGREE with TOTO and MARK, this were the words that i want to say since the thread start ..
but having a hard time translating this in ENGLISH ( nose bleed )

HAHAHAHA:Grin:

PEACE

If you price yourself 6K for a 60K project then you're not smart. This has been debated many times in many fora. I believe the thread purpose is to educate the 6K photog their real worth (read: You're worth more than 6k!). If the project is worth 6K then by all means charge 6K or even 5.5K to get the project. If the pro charges 60K for a 60K project and you just charge 6K because you think you're just a newbie (put here all your excuses/reasons) then this thread is for you. You could have charged 50K and still beat the veteran pro photographer.

i think its not really 6k, its just lower than the pro 50k +++ :D

The 6k photog does not exist, it is a term currently used to refer to photographers who wants to shoot and get paid but are having problems reaching their goals and their dreams because they DON'T KNOW how to rate themselves.

"By offering your prices within the same range with that of the more established players, you are not helping your business any further. You are helping the business of bigger players grow some more". (IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THIS YOU ARE NOT "SMART').

In the past i would have argued for this but now that i have my feet wet for close to a year (yes im new) i will side with "big business" even if i'm not.

i believe what is also being addressed is the rapid price erosion happening in the industry. do a little research/ googling here and abroad and you'll know what i mean. if this continues, there wont be anything for anyone of value as far as treating professional photography as a serious source of income.

It is kind of temping to ask a similar question, are you a photographer worth a million pesos and in the process know the answers. but that would be OT here i guess.

Apparently, some among us view the thread as an affected photographer's way to dictate how business of photography is supposed to be or should become to his fellow photogs, his competitors at that. Somehow, this is being construed as a photog's thread who is aching in the business and would like everyone else to go to hell.

But this is not. The last 4 to 5 pages of this thread has been filled with RAW reactions FROM the very photogs that would benefit from this thread.

This is a way to let all of US know, besides the comparisons and the laws and the prices. That increasing your take CAN be done. No matter how long anyone intends to remain as a 6k photog, the truth of the matter still remains, you MAY NOT know how much you are really worth if you don't TRY to discover it yourself, By this, the customer becomes one of the determinant in the matrix of costing, BUT IT IS JUST ONE AMONG THEM. The others include you as a person, your skill, your talent, your equipment, and so on.

I AM NOT a made-businessman for everyone to know.
I AM NOT a million-peso-paid photographer.
I AM NOT a wailing photographer in the competiton that is price.
I AM NOT the big-gun photographer that you think.

I AM a no one in the industry. No one knows me. Except here.
I AM 36 years old and drink a lot of coffee.
I AM now almost bald but it's not my competitor's fault.
I have a camera and a small studio, and i have learned that most clients are ABLE to adjust.
Because I have discovered this, I want all of you to know too.

That's my story.

Please don't take the suggestions here as a fellow photog's way of putting off the 6k photog becasue I am affected by it.

My suggestions come as they are shown to me.
They are not MY truths. They are truths of history.
They are not MY laws. They are jurisprudence that would lead you to make a decision.

If anyone will benefit from it, thank God instead.

Signing off.

If you price yourself 6K for a 60K project then you're not smart. This has been debated many times in many fora. I believe the thread purpose is to educate the 6K photog their real worth (read: You're worth more than 6k!). If the project is worth 6K then by all means charge 6K or even 5.5K to get the project. If the pro charges 60K for a 60K project and you just charge 6K because you think you're just a newbie (put here all your excuses/reasons) then this thread is for you. You could have charged 50K and still beat the veteran pro photographer.

Now if I am a customer, and I want something photographed professionally, the first thing that comes to mind is to look for an established photographer. If their price falls on my budget, I might not bother anymore to task myself of finding other alternatives. If the price I got is beyond my expectation, then I would look for other alternatives. Perhaps, i'd look for less known photographers who are just equally proficient and can give me something acceptable that is within my budget. whether that is 6k or 50k is irrelevant. But I would definitely go for something more affordable with basically the same offerings.

With this in mind, how can i be differentiated in the customer's short list if I price myself like a bigger player? If I am the customer, seeing two almost identical quotations coming from Librodo studio and one from an unheard freelancer Toto Gamboa, I'd be out of my mind to pick Toto Gamboa.

Bottomline here is that, the photog has to know how to use the calculator and punch in the multiplier for profit over known cost. It doesn't have to anchor its pricing on the pricing models of the bigger players. It doesn't mean he has to lose money. A decent profit margin will do.

The 6k figure is exaggerated. The 6k figure i believe is just symbolic and is representive of a segment in this industry that has caused the downtrend in prices of photography related products and services. It is not necessarily cheap, not necessarily about losing money, or the lowering down of photography from its luxurious, classy past. High end photography is still expensive. But the 6k photog trend has opened new avenues that anyone can explore and challenge. It has given customers more options in terms of afordability. 6k photogs has created more reach for this industry and has created awareness that high end photography is reachable nowadays.

i believe what is also being addressed is the rapid price erosion happening in the industry. do a little research/ googling here and abroad and you'll know what i mean. if this continues, there wont be anything for anyone of value as far as treating professional photography as a serious source of income.

Not a chance this would happen. there is always that tipping point. The industry will stabilize itself naturally. It will eventually weed out all the clingers and reward those who will persevere. Players (clingers) that can't adapt to the challenges will lag behind and probably will fall out of the race and never attempt to give it a try anymore. Sadly, some of those that will succumb could be big players themselves if they can't adapt to the trend now. BUt eventually, as clingers fall, prices will go up once again.

Now if I am a customer, and I want something photographed professionally, the first thing that comes to mind is to look for an established photographer. If their price falls on my budget, I might not bother anymore to task myself of finding other alternatives. offerings.

With this

Sadly, that's not the case. Because there are people who offer to do the same job at a very low cost. And customers are biting. Worse, they take it as the new standard rate. This is actually the problem as John Taca mentioned "rapid price erosion". And when will the industry stabilize itself? When photography is not a profession anymore i guess.

Apparently, some among us view the thread as an affected photographer's way to dictate how business of photography is supposed to be or should become to his fellow photogs, his competitors at that. Somehow, this is being construed as a photog's thread who is aching in the business and would like everyone else to go to hell.

Hi Marlo, the thread actually sounds like an appeal to raise prices to the level of the pricing that bigger players were used to. There is nothing wrong with that. And I'd be one with you in trying to achieve that. Who else would not want to earn like the big name guys earn from their photography.

What I am doing is presenting another way of achieving it.

There is no way I would stand a chance with your studio if we happen to bid out on the same prospect and I will also follow your current business models.

Want to do some experiment? Let me submit a quote with your own prospect, with your dictated pricing, with your talent, your gears and talent and all. Though I wont be actually taking that business out of you, you will just use my name in the experiment and see how many of your customers will try to consider me. Then we can also conduct the 6k test and let us see if I might be able to get your clients away frmo your studio. But of course, that is only an experiment. :Grin:

Nevertheless, I do understand you. I am not against what you have started in this thread. I just wanted others to see another angle to explore. It is up for them to decipher which is more sensible and more realistic and what works for them.

Sadly, that's not the case. Because there are people who offer to do the same job at a very low cost. And customers are biting. Worse, they take it as the new standard rate. This is actually the problem as John Taca mentioned "rapid price erosion". And when will the industry stabilize itself? When photography is not a profession anymore i guess.

I understand you perfectly sir. Perhaps it is not the photographers that we have to appeal to but we should exert more effort in educating our customer base. By educating our customer base and allow them to see what entails in capturing their images, we might get a better chance ... but of course that is easier said than done. After all, the customers will always have the last say.

As for customers really biting such very very low cost, we cant blame them. and we have to respect them. Perhaps, their decisions of going to that 6k photographer are very valid. That is the challenge. Let us ask questions why on earth did they afford to offer such a package while I can't even lower it down to just mere 10%. Perhaps, you all need to review your business models. Are they still applicable now? Are they justifiable now?

This does not happen to the photgraphy business alone. It is prevalent everywhere.

Just even imagine if you are in a software development business and you got open source communities giving away free software. You can even imagine the pains Anderson Tan is having with all the grey sellers surrounding his CDSC business. It is pretty normal sir.

If you have a killer folio coupled with a budget pricing, I believe that clients would bite even if you are a no name photographer. Clients are wiser now than before, some preferred those with big names already even though they bill huge too just for the sake of peace of mind knowing that they'll get exactly what they are paying for but even those who are just new but can deliver the same output on a much cheaper bill have the chance simply because most especially the couples who are just about to get married are more interested in not only saving their bucks but also will look at your folio first before they decide.

Let's look at it in the eyes of clients point of view, if we are to compare the folios of two bidding photographers, a known and unknown people but both have a very similar output on their hard copies or say the unknown one presents a much better folio on a definite cheaper billing, wouldn't you choose him/her over the other? These guys who offers cheap but can really deliver thus pushes the envelope of competitiveness ensuring quality service. Only those who don't want to give the new players a chance and those who don't want to show what they really are worth for and just banking on previous successes are the only ones who are threatened.

If you have a killer folio coupled with a budget pricing, I believe that clients would bite even if you are a no name photographer.

This is the new ballgame! Adapt or perish. Resistance is futile.

Perhaps, you all need to review your business models. Are they still applicable now? Are they justifiable now?

This does not happen to the photgraphy business alone. It is prevalent everywhere.

This is a nice and informative thread.

IMO, Probably a business model that considers using D300s or 40Ds instead of D3s or 1Ds , PCs for MACs , Photoshop 7 instead of CS2 or CS3, 3rd party lenses instead of the in-house brand (oh boy i could almost hear violent reactions :)) .... I guess If photography is treated 1st as a business and 2nd as a passion then these might be considered, but i doubt it if it were the other way around.

Not a pro ,just my 2cents...

cheers:Grin:

I think it is dangerous to draw conclusions from statements we can't vouch with hard facts. Let's try to analyze this without too much generalization. I said dangerous because it's like writing a letter with wrong heading. We all know the implication of writing a letter with a wrong heading. Something like you start with a name like Jerwin San Juan then the title like "The H of the E", then the office like "Office of the God of Heaven and Earth" then the location "Infinity".

Like the letter I received today in "The Office" which has wrong heading which is very dangerous. And when I say dangerous it's an understatement. I probably wait for another with the correction. I'm willing to pay but I am certain there will be implications so I have to say this. Last time I humbly submitted to the rule of a diosa (trans: goddess) Phrank made a turn overhead. And when in fact I saved around P800 that day now that I'm gonna lose significant, the damage will be exponential. If I pay this we'll have to brace ourselves.

So the ideal discussion about photography as a business is being clear.

39. KNOW YOUR CAPABILITIES, LIMITATIONS, and INHERENT ADVANTAGES - TG

"Knowing what you can do and cannot do is the easiest among the things you need to know since you are the only one who can clearly gauge yourself if you really can deliver in terms of photography, logistics and time."

39. Know how your competitors would do their best to get the opportunity away from your reach - TG

"In the business world, you have to compete. For every piece of opportunity out there, most often, you will have to outdo your competitors. Else, you will be left out to dry. "

40. By all means, use your advantages to the maximum. - TG

"You will have the capability to bring down prices. But don’t overdo it. Be selective. But It doesn’t mean you have to cut down on quality and delivery too, so if you can maintain the same high quality, well and good. If you can’t, you are doomed."

41. You have to gamble and lose money to gain something in exchange. -TG

"I know you will hurt your competitors in the process, especially if you succeed on each and every way you get into, but mind you, if you don’t do this, others will and you will be left out with nothing to gain."

42. By pricing your product low, you may have a better chance of getting a share of the market. -BB

43. If the pro charges 60K for a 60K project and you just charge 6K because you think you're just a newbie (put here all your excuses/reasons) then this thread is for you. You could have charged 50K and still beat the veteran pro photographer. - MP

44. The photog has to know how to use the calculator and punch in the multiplier for profit over known cost. It doesn't have to anchor its pricing on the pricing models of the bigger players. It doesn't mean he has to lose money. - TG

44. The 6k photog trend has opened new avenues that anyone can explore and challenge. It has given customers more options in terms of afordability. 6k photogs has created more reach for this industry and has created awareness that high end photography is reachable nowadays. -TG

IMHO, a photographer may start with 6k and move his way up tho 60k. It is inevitable to raise the price when you're so good and customers flock at your door. Basic law of demand in economics. You drop your price when buyers are only few. Increase the price as demand grows.

Cheers!

39. Know how your competitors would do their best to get the opportunity away from your reach - TG

"In the business world, you have to compete. For every piece of opportunity out there, most often, you will have to outdo your competitors. Else, you will be left out to dry. "

may i share MHO?:)

something I learned from someone. Changed my life.:) In regard to business be it photography or not. the quote above was truth to me before. I believed it. The world is cut throat, there are lots of competition, you have to survive, be ruthless,etc. etc. And because I believed it, I operated that way - find out the going rates, compute and slash the price so you get the deal, Im sure you know how that goes. Soon enough i found myself tired, frustrated, broke and with less and less equipment.and sad. as in.

I got the deals, but I wasn't happy. I was worse than when I started off. Broke and miserable. I wanted answers and then this encounter happened.

Talking about business, he asked, " why are you operating in a point of scarcity and lack?" Explaining further," People/businesses that operate in this kind of mindset are those who create for themselves scenarios of competition, and cutting throats, of creating short cuts, hoarding, etc. etc. Try to observe these businesses/ these people - are they really living life? Are they enjoying it? No, and worse because they have that competitive mindset even if they get to the top of the game, eventually someone/something better gets ahead of them. Why? Simply because you stand on the point of competing where, someone wins and someone loses. And in this reality, even if you win, you lose...one way or another. sooner or later."

And then He said, " Think about this, why not WIN-WIN?"

I was dumbfounded. I asked, " is that possible?", " does that work?"," is that realistic?,etc... He then gave real life examples of Win- Win situations in business and life in general.

To say the least I was sold. The difference thereafter was amazing. We really could choose to operate in a mindset of lack and scarcity thus finding people/clients with the same ways of thinking. We also get the results of such mindset in our business pursuits. O r we could choose to think and believe that there are clients and businesses out there that pays well, wants the best products and services you can offer and all leading to your well being financially, artistically... the works!:)

To sum it up - if you think poor as a photographer ( or in life in general ), you get poor clients. If you think rich/abundant/progressive... - you get the benefits of it.

I tried it and never looked back since. as a photographer and as a normal pinoy living life - much more fulfilling. less stressful and always productive, progressive.:)

And nakaka upgrade na po ako ng gamit.hehehe.:D

How many photogs in the Philippines would get a seven digit one-time-payment in their entire career?

And OUCH! i'm one of those 6k photographers, i don't see how can i jack up my price for a less than two hour event like contract signing (which they can do with their P&S camera) or groundbreakings and topping-off's for their PR use. Yes my time and TALENT/SKILL is worth so much more but it should work both ways. For product shoots, ads, menus, brochures, billboards... that's a different ballgame.

Both Marlo and Toto have a point here... now let's get back to REALITY and discuss this over a cup of coffee.:D

I've learned that I can't keep doing the same thing and still expect a different result. The way to move up from 6K is to learn to do something that others are not doing or offering. Try to do something others find difficult, or do something nobody else has thought of. Remember Anne Geddes - the baby photographer? She still did what she liked - which was photographing babies - but she introduced a way of photographing babies that nobody else was doing then - with all sorts of cute props to make them look like bees, babies in pails etc. Then when almost every baby photographer was copying her style, she started to shoot babies not at what was popularly thought as the most cute stage - which is when they could sit up -but just a few days old. Her sale is still skyrocketing - she's into books, cards, all sorts of merchandise.

We need to learn to innovate.

I've learned that I can't keep doing the same thing and still expect a different result. The way to move up from 6K is to learn to do something that others are not doing or offering. Try to do something others find difficult, or do something nobody else has thought of. Remember Anne Geddes - the baby photographer? She still did what she liked - which was photographing babies - but she introduced a way of photographing babies that nobody else was doing then - with all sorts of cute props to make them look like bees, babies in pails etc. Then when almost every baby photographer was copying her style, she started to shoot babies not at what was popularly thought as the most cute stage - which is when they could sit up -but just a few days old. Her sale is still skyrocketing - she's into books, cards, all sorts of merchandise.

We need to learn to innovate.

So that's her name, I've always found her displays to be extremely FRESH despite the simplicity... :)

[quote=totogamboa;446161]

With this in mind, how can i be differentiated in the customer's short list if I price myself like a bigger player? quote]

I believe the more challenging question that can bring in more bucks is - outside of price, how else can I compete? How can I differentiate myself from others? What can I offer that nobody else is offering? Of course, competing on the basis of price is still an option, but it should be the last consideration.

@ Majarlika Mirasol

"Soon enough i found myself tired, frustrated, broke and with less and less equipment.and sad. as in. I got the deals, but I wasn't happy. I was worse than when I started off. Broke and miserable."

Upon seeing this statement of yours, I told myself, that you already failed before you even got started. For me, that was like starting on a wring footing.

By competing, by cutting prices, it doesnt mean you have to forego profits. You cut prices coz you see yourself investing on a move that someday you will get returns of your investment. You have to weigh a lot of things, you have to carefully lay out your long term strategy and how you will be able to achieve it. You dont grow your business once transaction at a time.

By giving away something without getting back in return is outright recklessness in business. Bottomline, dont cut prices without knowing why you are cutting your prices and just for the sake of getting the deals. The real pros will be laughing at you if you do that. Here are some of things I have done before that paid well after:

I gave a significant discount to a high profile client in exchange of another contract. That contract states, I can use them as reference in my portfolio and be allowed to drop/use their name that they are one of my most high profile clients. Some clients just dont want strings attached after a transaction. But I can see a lot of outfits use their client's photos for their portfolios without explicit permission. WARNING: By failing to capitalize on this after the transaction, you are only wasting some things you have just gained.

I gave a deal for free knowing i will gain a tremendous amount of knowledge and experience if I get the deal. I know that if I dont get this deal, there is no way for me to gain the knowledge and experience through any other easy means. WARNING: By failing to capitalize on this after the transaction, you are only wasting some things you have just gained.

I overpriced a deal (400% from possibly what I thought would be the highest competitor price) as I see the deal as something of a distraction to begin with. In short, I am really avoiding to get the deal but I just couldn't shoo anyone away if they really like to get my services. In my mind, If I get this deal, it should really well worth my time, thus I saw to it that I profit really really really big. To my surprise, the wealthy client still wanted me to do it. I dunno if they were stupid or just have lots of money. But in the end, it turned to be one of the best one time deals I ever had. Had the client, went and signed up with a competitor, I'd be happy to know that they will be distracting my competitor, not me. :Grin:Just carefully balance your strategies. Always do things advantageous to you and things that will make you happy but always try to capitalize on the gains you just had coz nothing lasts forever.

I've learned that I can't keep doing the same thing and still expect a different result. The way to move up from 6K is to learn to do something that others are not doing or offering. Try to do something others find difficult, or do something nobody else has thought of. Remember Anne Geddes - the baby photographer? She still did what she liked - which was photographing babies - but she introduced a way of photographing babies that nobody else was doing then - with all sorts of cute props to make them look like bees, babies in pails etc. Then when almost every baby photographer was copying her style, she started to shoot babies not at what was popularly thought as the most cute stage - which is when they could sit up -but just a few days old. Her sale is still skyrocketing - she's into books, cards, all sorts of merchandise.

We need to learn to innovate.

That is adapting. That is embracing constant change. She is always evolving so she becomes a hard target for her competitors.

[quote=totogamboa;446161]

With this in mind, how can i be differentiated in the customer's short list if I price myself like a bigger player? quote]

I believe the more challenging question that can bring in more bucks is - outside of price, how else can I compete? How can I differentiate myself from others? What can I offer that nobody else is offering? Of course, competing on the basis of price is still an option, but it should be the last consideration.

Yes I agree. Pricing is just one aspect of the game. Only those pros who refuse to adjust when needed and doesnt have an ounce of creativeness in their blood are the ones most likely to be vulnerable to price wars.

Sir, nobody is blaming anybody.

I agree that no one should be blamed for what is happening to the profession. Instead of photographers blaming each other, they should actually be working together. And this is why I like Marlo's inputs - they are meant to help and unite, not blame or divide.

Precisely, what I meant. Ma'am Harvey just said it way better. :Grin:

Wow! Good read Marlo!

If there's one thing that I've learned from this thread, it's about sharing what you know and not selfishly keeping things for your own -- your doing a good service to all the other responsible fotogs out there! If given the chance, I'll do the same and share what I learned and do a pay it forward. :)

Cheers!
Ian

WOW! ang haba ng thread but worth the time spent reading it...

i missed a good portion of this topic already. i wonder if theres a way to consolidate the post / opinions so i can just print ; P

This thread rocks.....read the whole thread in 3 days....(since am reading it only during break time / lunch periods - even had to hasten my lunch just to hv time to read)...am blessed with all the info sharing with the community. I hope someone will have the time to consolidate and share a pdf version of the thread to the community. More blessings if this happen....kudos to the authors.

This thread caught my eye because I started at P6k shooting by myself (not counting the backup days because those were really low). Good read.

I figured the trouble is when you work on referral and then you shot at a certain price, the friends of that client would expect you to give the same amount even if you've decided to jack up the price already so you could keep up.

I figured I always base my rates following the guidelines:

With 1 coverage, I should be able to replace my camera in case it breaks down or at least be able to have the funds to repair it and still get a profit from the gig. What if it rains and your camera breaks down?

If the client has very limited budget, I charge on an hourly rate. (For some, let's say P1500 per hour).

I always add in the cost of the lights/lamps/halogens. These are disposables so my rates always include brand new units of the lamps. If a lamp is PhP800 then multiply that amount to how many lamps you use.

Really good thread... enlightening... Ive been pondering about whether I should pursue photography as a career... one thing I am very afraid of is that I may end up as 1x1 id photographer... :KO::(

Im very passionate about it and its one of those things that you feel like you're meant to do... :D hope it works out for me... Im still on the learning stage but ill try soak up all the knowledge I can and improve on my photography....

Oh, any advice on newbie photogs? how they should set their price?
Is it ok if I give my services for free if my purpose is to practice?

one thing I am very afraid of is that I may end up as 1x1 id photographer... :KO::(


There's decent money on that as well, especially when your cost is so low.

well.. still wouldnt want to be stuck there..

4. When you don't know how much to charge, let your wife do the talking. If wife was unable to land the project. The client is just going to waste your time. Better spend that time with her.

Whew! 23 pages.... HAHAHA what if not yet handcuffed to any lady out there...who will replace wifey????hehehe Im thinking MOMMY??????

hehe. that is not a lot if you include 2 digits on the right side of the decimal point. :Grin:

Seriously, I also wonder if these are actually the prevailing rates of bigtime photography project in the country. No wonder many would want to enter the photgraphy circuit and make money out of it. Non wonder too why many feel threatened by the emergence of 6k photogs.

It is kind of temping to ask a similar question, are you a photographer worth a million pesos and in the process know the answers. but that would be OT here i guess.


Flexibility I guess is the key...So one would not feel threatened by the emergence of 6k photogs... In my opinion, I think the problem is, most of these 6k photogs don't know exactly where to start. So what happens they enter the playing field of the pro thereby threatening those in the higher level. Most of the playing field of the pro are more known due to publicity.If the other playing grounds specially for those in novice and lower, gets a fair share of publicity, then these novice and lower would know where to go. If only these novice photogs knew where their playing field is, I think no harm will come out.

Like in my case. Live stock business would still be my bread and butter, yet I would like to earn from photography. As my family saying goes; 'since you are putting time into it, make money out of it as well, so that your time and effort bears fruit.' At the moment I don't know yet where I can start or how I can start. In fact Im willing to do photography for 5k@ the moment, only @ the moment.

Some of the photogs want higher pay so they can up grade stuffs. In my mind had any one ever thought of delayed self gratification? so as to make ends connected an establish one self, as the saying goes; 'wala sa pana yan, nasa tirador yan'.

I think those who made it to the higher level should stop felt being threatened. instead they should help those new comers know where they(beginner/novice) can start their career or how they can earn from photography even just a small amount.

nice read!
many thanks to the TS and all the mods and members who contributed their slice of pie in one way or another, thru voicing their opinions and point of views. hobbyists who are thinking of getting into the industry must read this thread. for me, as a paid hobbyist ( i can call myself proudly), this is an eye-opener :)

nice read!
many thanks to the TS and all the mods and members who contributed their slice of pie in one way or another, thru voicing their opinions and point of views. hobbyists who are thinking of getting into the industry must read this thread. for me, as a paid hobbyist ( i can call myself proudly), this is an eye-opener :)

Care to share how some one like me can become a paid hobbyist??? Lik what I mentioned earlier... if only the amateurs knew where the starting line is...

Care to share how some one like me can become a paid hobbyist??? Lik what I mentioned earlier... if only the amateurs knew where the starting line is...

Start by attending some business classes - then you would know where to set your own starting line. :)

Doi: Read the thread again from page 1, then read it again... You'll get the idea that this has very little to do with photography itself but how you do approach this as a business. It applies to virtually any service-based start-ups.

[this is such a great thread. kudos to mr marlo for starting this and to mr gamboa for providing a different perspective, to ms harvey chua sharing an opinion coming from an established name in the photography community. this "classic" argument couldn;t come at a better time im sure, not just for me but for eveyone who had a lot of questions but are afraid to post them here. hope to read more. great day everyone.

Very nice, interesting, and informative thread! I stumbled upon this thread when actually I was searching for ideas for online portfolio where I can display my most recent gig -- it was free though. I don't think that I've low-balled myself here as this is my FIRST ever gig. I consider it as my capital, my initial investment into a new level of my hobby and hopefully be a part-timer then turn pro. I may or may not get anything tangible yet but I know I will in the future.

With the first experience, I've learned a lot and this thread did come at the right time. God do let things fall into place.

There's a lot of truth in the previous posts -- some points can really hurt the ego but the truth really hurts and I believe that accepting the truth is the first step to learning. Accept that one needs to learn.

Cheers to all!

Very Good thread and informative....

If I may share...I've read and known about this predicament for a while now and its been a problem for photogs around the world...I remember reading about a guy who landed a cover for the Time Magazine and got about $25 for his picture (or some other absurdly low price) because his picture was taken from a stock photography site....I understand that people's livelihood are at stake and I believe that we are all in the same spirit of wishing everyone well but it is what it is...Digital SLR wont go away, the internet will continue to make information easy and accessible.

Is the hobbyist to blame? the part timer?...this change was brought about by the times...think of music and napster...think of the assembly line and the specialized robots...stretch it a bit more and we can even maybe draw a line with call centers in India and in the philippines "stealing" work from angry western workers because a filipino in the philippines is paid maybe 5x cheaper than an american doing the same job in the states...

Economics and Technology are at play as much as the people practicing this craft...it has been noted that change is difficult....indeed it is. Ive read varying opinions some criticizing the photographer for hurting the industry because that cover could have gone to a professional working for a living..some criticizing the critics for being dinosaurs clinging to a business model that is getting more obsolete by the day...

we might be in the middle of a transition for the photography industry...it may take a year or 10 i dunno but technolgy is like a freakin pandora's box....I only hope that whatever form it takes could still be a reasonable form of livelihood for I too would love to shoot for a living..

just my 2 cents

^ You already mentioned it. Technology makes it possible to use assembly lines for almost everything making things cost-efficient and therefore making products cost less.

Technology enables us to work smarter and not harder.

@ Mam Harvey and Sir David.

Looks like there is misunderstanding. What I meant was what are the other playing fields for the amateurs. I am wondering where else I can earn from photography even in a small amount. Sure I can come up with a studio rental business or something like that, though I want to earn more with my pictures.

anyway all is well

Cheers!

@Doi: Ah, I see... I posted this site not too long ako, it's worth mentioning here. http://www.asmp.org/strictlybusiness/

Diversification in terms of earning in photography doesn't always have to end with producing a photo.

This is a good read (http://rising.blackstar.com/clients-will-choose-trust-over-talent-every-time.html) as well.

Cheers.

Spent my three days (online time) to read this whole thread... truly, a good read... an eye opener.

I wonder why this thread is not yet 'Sticky'.

It took me the entire afternoon to read and understand (a little :Grin:) the entire thread. :Grin: This really deserve to be 'Sticky'

This thread is really interesting, not to mention very helpful especially for someone like me who just graduated college. I've had my share of rakets here and there, and I often find myself racking my brain on how to price. This definitely is a good read, thank you to Marlo Moya!

13. You know you're good, and you know you can improve some more. So you save a couple of thousand pesos or dollars and improve on your craft. You search for just the right seminar-workshop. You search for some more discussions and tutorials online. You search for the right inspirational books and self-help textbooks. You search and pick up bits and pieces of information on forums like this we have. You search for even more information about products and equipments.

You INVEST in your SELF.

All investments have returns. Some relatively faster than others, but still, with returns.

Invest wisely, and receive the returns tenfold!

THis nails down to my side of photography, not that I do photography shoots as a service, but the stuff I earn from shoots and other photography related job helps (time to crank up my stuff, and my costing) :Grin:

very informative Sir..,:)

Question how do you join the wedding photographers team before embarking it alone.... I am interested in the photography field. I read most of the commandments up to number 19.

I think the best way is to join a pro and learn how to do it.

I'm a hobbyist and started to do 1 little prenup for my girlfriend's brother it was free only. I noticed I lacked the concept in the shoot so I wanted to learn more about weddings and prenup hope I can hook up with some of the wedding photographer and still get paid for my time and equipment of course as the thread implies hehehe

Question how do you join the wedding photographers team before embarking it alone.... I am interested in the photography field. I read most of the commandments up to number 19.

I think the best way is to join a pro and learn how to do it.

I'm a hobbyist and started to do 1 little prenup for my girlfriend's brother it was free only. I noticed I lacked the concept in the shoot so I wanted to learn more about weddings and prenup hope I can hook up with some of the wedding photographer and still get paid for my time and equipment of course as the thread implies hehehe

just ask someone you know personally if you could join him in a shoot, and if he agreed, he'll just schedule you.. and remember the proper manners, and of course, DONT EXPECT PAYMENT!! you joined them for you to learn, they did not hire you.. they dont even know how good you are.

for us, we give some amount of money to them too, its still a way to respect other people.. but, when they dont give you, dont bother with it.. the important thing is you learned.

this thread is very informative indeed esp. to newbie in photog industry like me. Thanks!

just ask someone you know personally if you could join him in a shoot, and if he agreed, he'll just schedule you.. and remember the proper manners, and of course, DONT EXPECT PAYMENT!! you joined them for you to learn, they did not hire you.. they dont even know how good you are.

for us, we give some amount of money to them too, its still a way to respect other people.. but, when they dont give you, dont bother with it.. the important thing is you learned.



oh ok thanks for the tip

Question how do you join the wedding photographers team before embarking it alone.... I am interested in the photography field. I read most of the commandments up to number 19.

I think the best way is to join a pro and learn how to do it.

I'm a hobbyist and started to do 1 little prenup for my girlfriend's brother it was free only. I noticed I lacked the concept in the shoot so I wanted to learn more about weddings and prenup hope I can hook up with some of the wedding photographer and still get paid for my time and equipment of course as the thread implies hehehe

Take your time and it will pay off. The more you rush things, the less your confidence and knowledge will be. The more time you observe - by being a non-shooter assitant, by being a lightsman and the more time you read things and browse styles on the internet, the more it will accelerate your career when you eventually start.

Take your time and it will pay off. The more you rush things, the less your confidence and knowledge will be. The more time you observe - by being a non-shooter assitant, by being a lightsman and the more time you read things and browse styles on the internet, the more it will accelerate your career when you eventually start.


@ Lei any workshop catering to the photographer who wants to enter wedding photography and prenups and etc. I saw one from imagine nation for 5k I'm not sure if that is the workshop for me. It is the "purpose driven photographer workshop"

Like we mentioned (waay) earlier in this thread, if you want to turn this into a business or income-generating thing, handle the business side of things first. Your photography skills and business skills are two different things that you have to understand in order to succeed financially.