Do You Really Need A Flash Meter Part2 [Archive] - Digital Photographer Philippines

Christian_Alcala

02-23-2008, 05:18 AM

mr. alonzo,

please read and re-read your statement above, look at yourself in the mirror and tell me if this is a response of a patient, fair, respectable and stable moderator. then delete this thread because like i said, this has become very embarassing- not for me but for you. this is a big blot on your so called reputation. go ahead, make my day..

I wish I won't be the one to make your day, but since you were the one who first showed your "balat-sibuyas" mentality here, and that you yourself claimed so... "OUCH!! i feel like an idiot because i don't use a light meter anymore! but that's ok. i have exactly the same sentiment as the idiot/author but i have never felt more comfortable with my craft than the day i dropped my meter in the blender and celebrated with beer and peanuts".

Now, please re-READ what you've written and then deny to everyone that you are an IDIOT, and that it was you who actually made things worse. Bato-bato sa langit, ang tamaan mabubukulan! Too bad... having gone to & from a 'western country' never removed the common pinoy sentimental attitude of including oneself in a situation or scenario when the finger is not pointed at you, or even tries to hit you on the side. It's as if I'm hearing poor people saying "porke mahirap lang kami" kinda thing/ Now, being a professional yourself (as well as an educator), such attitude is not proper at all, IMHO. If the children you teach (for free, I know) would learn the attitude you exhibited in your first reply, then it's going be a big disaster when they learn how to join forums and discussions.

As for the link mentioned in this thread:
"That brings us to today, the good new days. With today’s digital technology, you simply click the shutter and there ya go… Instant, cost free, test polaroids (without the Polaroid) So what if the exposure is wrong? Shoot another picture, stupid! :+) If it’s too dark, adjust. Too light? Adjust! What’s the big freakin deal? Use the histogram as your meter. If that puppy is over too far to the right, stop down. If it’s over too far to the left, open up. Shoot, view, adjust. Repeat as needed.
Some people might argue, what about light ratios? How do I know what the light ratios are without a light meter? WHO CARES!? If the shadows are too dark, add some fill light! Too Flat, take some fill away. You don’t need a light meter, trust me."

Shoot another picture??? STUPID??? Boy oh boy! Ain't that really nice. And why would I even trust him? Did the writer contribute any novel things in photography? Would you shoot products from big companies using just your DSLR to meter for exposure as well as ratio??? And would you just tell or even yell at your assistant that it's too dark, it's too bright, adjust here, adjust there... in front of the client??? Well, I doubt if that would work, especially for those mid to upper class ad agencies.

However, I do understand your point about how a photog becomes knowledgeable & familiar with the equipments he owns and frequently use, it's like driving your own car. My first ever mentor and friend in this craft who happens to be one of the best photographer I've ever known, is so adapted with his light set-up in his studio, (read, studio) that he can do things without a meter. However, when we went to an out-of-town wedding photography seminar, he just have to rely from others who brought their meters as to the measured shooting settings. And I even admired him more. For a 60 year-old man with more than 30 years of TV broadcast and photo experience, he still acknowledges the fact that not using a meter has it's limits, even when using a digital camera.

On the other hand, there are still some photogs who simply manages to pull things off without a meter... that is, after running back & forth from their shooting distance to the monolights, removing the camera from his hand, adjusting the stand to be able to reach the controls, and then make the test shot again... over and over. And sad to say, that really looks stupid and idiotic. There's also one who kept on yelling just so his assistant could hear his command... well at least he had an assistant, Now, that's very unprofessional. Good thing it wasn't a big time project.

Case point, for a veteran photographer like you Sir, you really have a point, it's somewhat valid, and I respect that. We learn through experiences, right. But we all have to start somewhere, the basics. And it simply works. And most of the time, we have to go back to the basics when learning somethings new, or even, when venturing into a different territory or set-up. I just hope we can remove such 'attitude' I've pointed out. I would rather hear harsh words against me and react in either a benevolent or belligerent manner, than getting paranoid whenever I hear such ear-banging word, especially, again, if the finger is not pointed at me.

Now, I would really like to know of someone who teaches photographic lighting that would tell their students not use a light meter. Anyone?

Mabuhay to all! :)

PS: I am comfortable with my craft as well, despite having only 3 years of experience. I just know when and where to use various tools, and how to adapt to a scenario I'm in. And I'm always open to learning new things... having an open mind. Again, Mabuhay! :)

bernie_ledesma

02-23-2008, 07:06 AM

Gentleman, Mr. Alonzo, from an unbiased opinion, when you posted "Reply #7" :

That is precisely the problem...it's an idiot's way of thinking that the hand held light meter is just for exposure. Inside your camera is another meter mind you which you are using. I wouldn't expound on this anymore. It's up to anyone if they feel they need the meter or not. Not my loss nor gain.

OUCH!! i feel like an idiot because i don't use a light meter anymore! but that's ok. i have exactly the same sentiment as the idiot/author but i have never felt more comfortable with my craft than the day i dropped my meter in the blender and celebrated with beer and peanuts. as master reke said- when you're married for so long with your lighting equipment- you become one with them, knowing their every vagary and idiosyncrasy meter or no meter. and after all, that little lcd monitor on your digital camera is the one thing that photographers had been waiting for the last one hundred years! i seriously doubt if ANSEL ADAMS would have invented the zone system if a back-of-the-camera lcd was made available to him. poor ansel...

it was suggestive of Mr. Carating as being the point in person, BUT, as you explained you were referring to the Original author and upon reading it agin, I now believe it was not your intention to refer to Mr. Carating. So I hope Basil, you can let this go (i hope i said...).

This thread (from part 1) is actually very informative but this is another of that never ending debate like Nikon vs Canon, Mac vs Pc, where one point may not be better than the other, just a different way of doing it.

I for one had been shooting 2 to 3 light setup using the same "shoot, verify, adjust" method simply because I have no light meter, so I had to improvise. I am not a Professional meaning every purchase (cheapest light meter I know is JT=5,000, Sekonic=8,000) will have to be justified or prioritized. A lens must come before a light meter, a flash must come before a light meter. Food in the table must come before anything else...

So now that there may be some spare budget to allocate for a light meter, I find myself in the same boat as others reflecting "Do I really need a Flash Meter". I mean since I have been doing and surviving without one. So I read this thread and weigh the pros and cons.

I appreciate all those who have shared either pro or con, your inputs will help me decide in the end to go for it, or just go to Batanes with the budget and shoot.http://www.digitalphotographer.com.ph/forum/images/icons/icon7.gif

diegodanila

02-23-2008, 07:31 AM

" Different FOLKS...different STROKES " or " LIVE and let LIVE " ...peace to all of you:)

rudytolentino

02-23-2008, 07:44 AM

diegodanila

02-23-2008, 08:06 AM

We should propose as an addition to the 10 guidelines, that harsh adjectives like: idiot, stupid, silly etc...etc, should not be used or should be avoided as much as possible when posting a comment. This adjectives is always misconstrued.

basil carating

02-23-2008, 09:42 AM

I wish I won't be the one to make your day, but since you were the one who first showed your "balat-sibuyas" mentality here, and that you yourself claimed so... "OUCH!! i feel like an idiot because i don't use a light meter anymore! but that's ok. i have exactly the same sentiment as the idiot/author but i have never felt more comfortable with my craft than the day i dropped my meter in the blender and celebrated with beer and peanuts".

Now, please re-READ what you've written and then deny to everyone that you are an IDIOT, and that it was you who actually made things worse. Bato-bato sa langit, ang tamaan mabubukulan! Too bad... having gone to & from a 'western country' never removed the common pinoy sentimental attitude of including oneself in a situation or scenario when the finger is not pointed at you, or even tries to hit you on the side. It's as if I'm hearing poor people saying "porke mahirap lang kami" kinda thing/ Now, being a professional yourself (as well as an educator), such attitude is not proper at all. If the children you teach (for free, I know) would learn the attitude you exhibited in your first reply, then it's gonna be a disaster when they learn how to join forums and discussions.

As for the link mentioned in this thread:
"That brings us to today, the good new days. With today’s digital technology, you simply click the shutter and there ya go… Instant, cost free, test polaroids (without the Polaroid) So what if the exposure is wrong? Shoot another picture, stupid! :+) If it’s too dark, adjust. Too light? Adjust! What’s the big freakin deal? Use the histogram as your meter. If that puppy is over too far to the right, stop down. If it’s over too far to the left, open up. Shoot, view, adjust. Repeat as needed.
Some people might argue, what about light ratios? How do I know what the light ratios are without a light meter? WHO CARES!? If the shadows are too dark, add some fill light! Too Flat, take some fill away. You don’t need a light meter, trust me."

Shoot another picture??? STUPID??? Boy oh boy! Ain't that really nice. And why would I even trust him? Did the writer contribute any novel things in photography? Would you shoot products from big companies using just your DSLR to meter for exposure as well as ratio??? And would you just tell or even yell at your assistant that it's too dark, it's too bright, adjust here, adjust there... in front of the client??? Well, I doubt if that would work, especially for those mid to upper class ad agencies.

However, I do understand your point about a photog becomes knowledgeable with equipments one owns and frequently use. My first ever mentor and friend in this craft who happens to be one of the best photograher I've ever known, is so adapted with his light set-up in his studio, (read, studio) that he can do things without a meter. However, when we went to an out-of-town wedding photography seminar, he just have to rely from others who brought their meters as to the measured shooting settings. And I even admired him more. For a 60 year-old man with more than 30 years of TV broadcast and photo experience, he still acknowledges the fact that not using a meter has it's limits, even when using a digital camera.

On the other hand, there are still some photogs who simply manages to pull things off without a meter... that is, after running back & forth from their shooting distance to the monolights, removing the camera from his hand, adjusting the stand to be able to reach the controls, and then make the test shot again... over and over. And sad to say, that really looks stupid and idiotic. There's also one who kept on yelling just so his assistant could hear his command... well at least he had an assistant, Now, that's very unprofessional. Good thing it wasn't a big time project.

Case point, for a veteran photographer like you Sir, you really have a point, it's somewhat valid, and I respect that. We learn through experiences, right. But we all have to start somewhere, the basics. And it simply works. And most of the times, we have to back to the basics when learning somethings new, or even, when venturing into a different territory or set-up. I just hope we can remove such 'attitude' as I've pointed out. I would rather hear harsh words against me and react in either a benevolent or belligerent manner, than getting paranoid whenever I hear such, especially, again, if it's the finger is not pointed at me.

Now, I would really like to know of someone who teaches photographic lighting that would tell their students not use a light meter. Anyone?

Mabuhay to all! :)

PS: I am comfortable with my craft too, despite having only 3 years of experience. I just know when and where to use various tools, and how to adapt to a scenario I'm in. Again, Mabuhay! :)

OH NO!! i thought this case was closed- but here's another guy who got up on the wrong side of the bed! very angry indeed! this one outright calls me an idiot and then he says i have a point and he respects it- and he shouts "mabuhay". which one is it? AAAYY NAKAKABALIW!! c'mon dude, at least call me a rookie! but in the interest of civility, which i hope you will adhere to, (if you choose to reply to this-or else just pm me your sweet words) i will humbly explain myself to you:

1. i started with selenium and cds light meters which both, i'm sure, are older than you are alive. couldn't do anything without them. for one thing, with my WESTON MASTER IV hanging around my neck, i looked cool to the UST chicks back "when the air was clean and sex was dirty"

2. then i graduated to the modern battery operated model when i was able to afford it and because selenium started dying on me and was giving me inaccurate readings. still couldn't do anything without a meter.

3. then i was able to afford cameras that accepted polaroid backs and i said EUREKA! i can see a semblance of what my final output will be! still i couldn't do anyhing without my light meter doing the initial reading.

4. then i became a bit more experienced - learning all the quirks in my lighting units and started guesstimating and relying more and more on that light meter that God gave me. you know, the one lodged between your ears. still, i never left home without my seconic.

5. then i became confident and and experienced enough with my gear- and i said if the different light meter manufacturers couldn't even agree on what a neutral gray is and each has its own interpretation of it (one has a 12% value, another has 14%, another has 16%, still another has 18% and all claiming to be following the same ANSI standard) , i decided to formulate my own standards. still i couldn't do my initial shot without my seconic. but i, as you said, was shooting and re-shooting testing and re-testing and barking orders at my assistants in front of the "big compny art directors." no one told me, as in your own words, that i looked idiotic or stupid. they happened to be happy campers, not angry people. they couldn't care less if my camera was made of bamboo. all they care about was the final output.

6. then came digital- it was like "FAREWELL MR. SECONIC, IT'S BEEN A SLICE." that little LCD to me was like the invention of the wheel! i found out that in conjunction with it and that neat little function called histogram, my perfected art of guesstimating can still produce 30x40's that my customers pay shitloads of money for to hang on their walls. mr. seconic still resided in the deepest recesses of my camera bag- just in case.

7. atttitude? balat sibuyas? bato bato sa langit? i can assure you- none of those. in the short time i've been here, i've acquired many many friends who have given me the respect that i give them. and we discuss things -and agree and disagree-then we remain happy and we remain friends. you just have to understand that when i speak about my craft- i will be very very passionate about it and will stick to my guns. i owe everything to it. it sent my two kids to a very expensive university.and one thing that i never had-is a chip on my shoulder (porke mahirap lang kami) that you have inferred. as far as my photography is concerned, i have nothing more to prove.

8. paranoid? i hope you know the meaning of the word. as bernie said, all i am presenting here is an alternative- which happens to work for us. nothing and no one in photography will make me feel paranoid- been there , done that.

9. again, i never said i teach and i taught meterless photographic lighting nor shove the idea down people's throat. but if someone cares to listen, i will speak about it enthusiastically. sorry but that's how and what i am. c'est la vie!

basil carating

02-23-2008, 09:59 AM

i guess jay was offended by the word 'stupid' in the article in the same way basil was offended by the word 'idiot' used by jay describing the author of the article.

if that is really the case i request the admin to remove the link to the article in my post.

rudy,

i admire you- you are a true gentleman and a scholar. but you don't have to be apologetic of your post because this is what this forum is all about- discussing ways and alternatives. we all just have to be civil.

in fairness to me, if you read mr. alonzo's reply to my "ouch" post, he still insisted that "it's the idiot's way of doing things" clearly referring to me.

Christian_Alcala

02-23-2008, 02:27 PM

Gentleman, Mr. Alonzo, from an unbiased opinion, when you posted "Reply #7"

Not being sentimental about things, I don't believe Mr. Alnozo was still pointing 'the finger' at Mr. Caratig. Sometimes, it how a reader or a listener feels on the day an issue was raised that affects his judgement and response.

I for one had been shooting 2 to 3 light setup using the same "shoot, verify, adjust" method simply because I have no light meter, so I had to improvise. I am not a Professional meaning every purchase (cheapest light meter I know is JT=5,000, Sekonic=8,000) will have to be justified or prioritized. A lens must come before a light meter, a flash must come before a light meter. Food in the table must come before anything else...

That's precisely the point, making do of what we have, improvisation. However, that's because you don't have the meter, yet. Doing 2-3 light set-up is fairly easy, especially when you already know your equipment & set-up distances and you're in a controlled environment like your own studio. But, not quite when you're constantly changing monolight (and the buject as well) position and distances. This is where the challenge of changing light intensity per monolight unit arises... light ratio! And when dealing with a 4-5 (or more) light set-up. like they do in complicated layouts, you simply need a meter. But for your own purposes, I agree, you may not use a light meter... but it definitely would make things a lot easier, and it can even heighten more creative juices, not that it is the end all and be all of creativity.

By the way, do you know that an 18% gray card is a very good incident light meter even if we're actually getting a reflectance value from it? It may not be useful for mid-grey metering for flash photography unless you include it in the scene and make adjustments afterwards in PP, but it will certainly be as good as real meter, accurate to two-tenths of a stop, in ambient light photography when used properly. Another use of the gray card, aside from mimicking neutral gray, is for white balance of its 18% reflectance of equal amounts of light waves simulating thereby simulating white light.

So now that there may be some spare budget to allocate for a light meter, I find myself in the same boat as others reflecting "Do I really need a Flash Meter". I mean since I have been doing and surviving without one. So I read this thread and weigh the pros and cons.

Anyway, what you pointed out about your set-up and gear allocation is real good and well taken. And I'm glad that you didn't consider yourself an idiot. And yes, a lightmeter though not a priority, is a necessity for me. If you have the budget, you might as well go for it, it'll pay for itself eventually. We all have own thoughts on it, but everything simply biols down, as I've said, to BASICS. :)

Be well, shoot well. :D

Christian_Alcala

02-23-2008, 02:41 PM

OH NO!! i thought this case was closed- but here's another guy who got up on the wrong side of the bed! very angry indeed!

Hahaha!!! You're really funny Mr. Carating. Angry? Me? Is there any reason for me to feel that way? No, no, no, uh-ah! Yeah, age, nobody gets any younger. It's really how you feel about yourself that creates such negative responses. I'm not even angered by your first reply, moreso, your latest statement. It's quite amusing in fact, having read a totally different and outrages perspective... yours.
Oh well, if you are entitled to post your thoughts here, bad as it may seem, would it make posters surmise that you closed the case? We're not mind readers you know. ROTFLMAO... Thanks for this leisurely read. Your case would certainly help in my practice, I won't mention your name though, so no worries.. It's quite a learning experience. :D

Now, since we've blurted-out practically all points, can you do the honors of making the final remarks? I swear, I wouldn't reply to you anymore, it's gonna pointless anyway. Some say "it's hard to teach old dogs some new styles", but does it also mean it's hard to re-teach "old dogs some old styles'? No need to answer this query unless you find it also amusing. I already get it, even if I'm not a mind reader.

As for the other points, yeah, let's just keep it as it is. Time for work... bye! Woohoo!!!

Be well Sir! Mabuhay! :Grin:

basil carating

02-23-2008, 07:17 PM

Hahaha!!! You're really funny Mr. Carating. Angry? Me? Is there any reason for me to feel that way? No, no, no, uh-ah! Yeah, age, nobody gets any younger. It's really how you feel about yourself that creates such negative responses. I'm not even angered by your first reply, moreso, your latest statement. It's quite amusing in fact, having read a totally different and outrages perspective... yours.
Oh well, if you are entitled to post your thoughts here, bad as it may seem, would it make posters surmise that you closed the case? We're not mind readers you know. ROTFLMAO... Thanks for this leisurely read. Your case would certainly help in my practice, I won't mention your name though, so no worries.. It's quite a learning experience. :D

Now, since we've blurted-out practically all points, can you do the honors of making the final remarks? I swear, I wouldn't reply to you anymore, it's gonna pointless anyway. Some say "it's hard to teach old dogs some new styles", but does it also mean it's hard to re-teach "old dogs some old styles'? No need to answer this query unless you find it also amusing. I already get it, even if I'm not a mind reader.

As for the other points, yeah, let's just keep it as it is. Time for work... bye! Woohoo!!!
Be well Sir! Mabuhay! :Grin:

YOU'RE DAMN RIGHT! - for the first time.case closed. you've pushed down this thread to a level where no decent person should go down to. CONGRATULATIONS!! you've successfully scraped the bottom of the barrel! "mabuhay" ka rin.

Tard Santos

02-24-2008, 11:34 AM

OUCH!! i feel like an idiot because i don't use a light meter anymore! but that's ok. i have exactly the same sentiment as the idiot/author but i have never felt more comfortable with my craft than the day i dropped my meter in the blender and celebrated with beer and peanuts. as master reke said- when you're married for so long with your lighting equipment- you become one with them, knowing their every vagary and idiosyncrasy meter or no meter. and after all, that little lcd monitor on your digital camera is the one thing that photographers had been waiting for the last one hundred years! i seriously doubt if ANSEL ADAMS would have invented the zone system if a back-of-the-camera lcd was made available to him. poor ansel...

If you're hurt and you feel like you're an idiot then that's not anymore our problem. If you think that you don't need a light meter and you're satisfied in your works then that's great !

All I can say that having a light meter is defintiely a big help not only to the photographers but also to the models (glam shots) since you don't want to do trial and error flashing your strobes in your model's face just to check the best settings.

Thank you.

Lei Sarmiento

02-24-2008, 11:47 AM

I don't use a meter often. Most times I rely on in-cam metering. I don't think it's a "need".

BUT

I can always tell which photos here were taken using a light meter due to perfect exposure and lighting. Of course it can be the mastery of the photographer but the difference of photos with light metering/superb mastery is distinguisible from the photos that aren't metered.

--

rudytolentino

02-24-2008, 03:23 PM

please note - photographers who claim that they do not use light meters anymore are seasoned photographers and have been in photography for decades.

they have been saying that they have used light meters before . but later they fine it a burden rather than making their works easier.

Peter Jaena

02-24-2008, 10:04 PM

Back when I'm still using film SLR's, I really needed the flash meter to at least get the exposure close to what I want it to be... since obviously there is no way of knowing the actual output instantly, unless of course one uses polaroid backs. Therefore there is the need for bracketing exposures even if the strobes were already metered using a light meter.

But now, I have yet to use a flash meter when I moved up to DSLR. Even on shoots that I use multiple strobes. I don't mean that it's an unimportant tool, but like what others have mentioned, one can do without it, even on multiple light setups. But with it, of course setting up multiples strobes will be a bit quicker than not having one. :)

Franz A.D. Morales

02-24-2008, 11:41 PM

I don't use a light meter too. In-cam as well...

My shots may not be perfect, but it's what I see... and isn't photography about capturing what you see? Light meters are great, but I prefer having my shots under/overexposed as per my "vision." I once used one, and it really made my shots perfectly exposed... but I deleted it and saved the shot I made without it. Why? Because the perfectly exposed shot just wasn't me...

I agree with Diego... Different strokes for different folks, to each his own... whatever floats your boat, whatever humps your camel, whatever creams your soda, whatever pickles your gherkin, whatever bloats your goat, whatever paints your wagon, whatever makes you wet...

Peace \m/

basil carating

02-25-2008, 12:30 AM

Franz A.D. Morales

02-25-2008, 12:46 AM

YAH! MAHN! WHATEVER TURNS YOUR MOJO!!

Spoken like a true hippie!:D

basil carating

02-25-2008, 12:50 AM

Spoken like a true hippie!:D

in yellow bell-bottoms!

Franz A.D. Morales

02-25-2008, 12:55 AM

in yellow bell-bottoms!

Ah, my favorite color!:Grin:

Tama na! OT na! :D

Moving on... light meters, or the lack thereof...

basil carating

02-25-2008, 12:59 AM

start your own thread na! with pics!

olivertagayun

02-25-2008, 11:27 PM

Sad to say the author of the site you listed is an idiot.
We are talking of using the meter for measuring the relative brightness and contrast ratio of different light sources as well as in gauging the relative brightness levels of the scene that needs to be photographed so we'll know how to augment the lighting if need be. And to run your camera, the camera relies in an internal light meter to give u the appropriate EV settings. Of course, it's possible to shoot without the meter, but having the meter on hand makes you more efficient if not effective.

An idiot for me is a person who spend resources (money) that is totally useless!:D Like the light meter, DSLR today have a built in meter, a histogram program installed like the one i used in photoshop, and a 2.5 lcd monitor or you can hook up th dslr to a pc to look at the light and shadow of one's work. If this 4 reason is not enough i don't know who still need a lightmeter maybe the real idiot:Thinking:

Tok Paler

02-26-2008, 12:14 AM

Thanks for sharing that bit of information Sir Jay! =)

Thank you for all those who have the time and patience to impart their valued knowledge in this forum! =)

looking forward to read more from you!

Edner_Robles

02-26-2008, 06:42 AM

LeandroLosaria

02-26-2008, 02:27 PM

Archie Sy

02-26-2008, 03:21 PM

I'm sorry to butt in but I think this thread should be about our experieces and comments about the topic involved. This is where we share our ideas and pictures for everybody's benefit and not about using childish and sarcastic words to argue who's right and wrong.

Back to the topic.... I agree with Franz in saying "Different strokes for different folks, to each his own." I believe that artists which include photographers have different ways to express their art. If he's better off without a light meter then so be it. Different people have different opinion about things and the only thing we can do is to express why one thing is better than the other and perhaps we can learn a thing or two.

I attended Jay Alonzo's seminar in lighting and I can say that he knows his stuff well. From what I've heard, I believe that Basil Caratig is also a great portraitist. He is active in sharing his knowledge to us fellow photographers. Remember that he gave us a free seminar about lighting a year ago (correct me if I'm wrong).

We're at each other's throat and I think it's about time to stop especially those who's trying to instigate another word war.

BTW, Jason Tablante is using a light meter but Ibarra Deri, another great portraitist is not using one :). Both are great photographers but differing in opinion and I don't think one of em' is an idiot.

MelvinSevilla

02-26-2008, 03:22 PM

LeandroLosaria

02-26-2008, 03:34 PM

BTW, Jason Tablante is using a light meter but Ibarra Deri, another great portraitist is not using one :). Both are great photographers but differing in opinion and I don't think one of em' is an idiot.

the issue here isnt abt enumerating who amongst the pro-photographers uses and does not use a lightmeter, it's abt a statement from someone saying that light meters are "useless" and people that uses light meters are "idiots".

Archie Sy

02-26-2008, 03:37 PM

I didn't mention the names of the photographers to enumerate who uses one or not. It was meant to show to everyone that different PRO photographers have their own way in capturing photos.

I also do not think that this forum was made to label someone as an IDIOT but about lightmeters and by the way, I do not think Basil mentioned that using a light meter is useless.

I think you should also read the first part of my post and not choose what you only want to read. I don't want to start another word war. This is not a boxing forum.

LeandroLosaria

02-26-2008, 03:43 PM

yup i read it i just quoted a part of the statement that i read, also, last time i checked this is DPP, and im certain that it aint a boxing forum

and what word war are you saying? no one's having a word war here, unless of course having this kind of discussion is already a "word war" to you.

CocoyLopez

02-26-2008, 03:44 PM

Dictionary.com defines IDIOT as a person of profound mental retardation having a mental age below three years and generally being unable to learn connected speech or guard against common dangers.

Does anybody using a light meter considered with a profound mental retardation? :D :D :D

Archie Sy

02-26-2008, 03:48 PM

I just hope we can argue why we should use a lightmeter than continue on with this nonsensical mutated topic :P

KikoyBalayon

02-26-2008, 04:08 PM

kengo

02-26-2008, 04:12 PM

An idiot for me is a person who spend resources (money) that is totally useless!:D Like the light meter, DSLR today have a built in meter, a histogram program installed like the one i used in photoshop, and a 2.5 lcd monitor or you can hook up th dslr to a pc to look at the light and shadow of one's work. If this 4 reason is not enough i don't know who still need a lightmeter maybe the real idiot:Thinking:

Histogram is great if you are shooting mostly subject that are middle tone and with a middle tone background, try shooting and exposing a whole body shot of a light skinned model wearing white on white background, and now look ar your historgram... this will tell you that the shot is too overexposed, by the time you get the historgram correctly peaking in the center, your background and the model's clothes will turn gray not white. The light skin model will also turn darker. So do you want anything you shoot that is white to turn gray?

In case many don't realize, the light meter we have in the camera will the meter the burst of a strobe and is only effective for continous (or ambient) lights. Try looking through your viewfinder and hit your flash, and see if the reading on your camera's meter changed long enough for you to notice. If it didn't change does it mean your flash doesn't have an effect on the exposure?

I don't use a light meter too. In-cam as well...

My shots may not be perfect, but it's what I see... and isn't photography about capturing what you see? Light meters are great, but I prefer having my shots under/overexposed as per my "vision." I once used one, and it really made my shots perfectly exposed... but I deleted it and saved the shot I made without it. Why? Because the perfectly exposed shot just wasn't me...

Peace \m/

Yes its all about capturing what you see, but can you actually see the burst of strobe? If the pictures you want are exactly how you see (with your eyes) it, then you should try photojourn, but for a fashion, glamour and etc. photographer, its not what they see with their eyes, its what they see in their head. Knowing to manipulate lights and camera setting is needed to achieve what they see in their head translated on a picture.

I have been shooting for quite some time, but I still can't see the burst of the strobe long enough to do adjustments.

People shooting for quite some time can get familiar with their equipment in a controled environment and not require any lightmeters, some studio inside malls do exactly this, they memorize a setting, put marks on the floor as to where to position the lights and wala! Perfect exposure. This is also the reason when you look at all their sample pictures, all the images look the same.

I will never let go of my flash meter, no matter what people call those owning one are, it just simplifies and makes my work much easier, and in doing so also not punishing my models of constant test shots just to get the light I need.

Ken

ikelozada

02-26-2008, 06:59 PM

hi guys i'm a newbie but i would like to give my opinion. i think what happened is more of a burst ego and misunderstanding. i hope things get cleared out here.
oliver, did u shoot the glamor shots in your website with this setup? how do i hook mine?and whats that histogram program?surely you didn't use a light meter here?

"An idiot for me is a person who spend resources (money) that is totally useless! Like the light meter, DSLR today have a built in meter, a histogram program installed like the one i used in photoshop, and a 2.5 lcd monitor or you can hook up th dslr to a pc to look at the light and shadow of one's work. If this 4 reason is not enough i don't know who still need a lightmeter maybe the real idiot
__________________
_________________________

my photos "

hochi_abaya

02-26-2008, 08:01 PM

and in doing so also not punishing my models of constant test shots just to get the light I need.

this is probably the best answer posted here

Tard Santos

02-26-2008, 08:35 PM

Ok hands down Kids.

Let's make this clear once and for all. For those people who has the money to buy and use light meters then I bet your money is worthit.

For those who has the money but doesn't need a light meter then you guys are fantastic photographers.

For those who doesn't have the money and who needs one then start saving some $$$ and get yourself a nice light meter.

And for those who doesn't know what a light meter is then do some research or ask Mr. Google.

Let us all respect eachother's opinions and let's stick to the topic and always rememeber that "fighting over the internet is just like joining in special olympics, even if you win you're still retarded. "

Thank you.

diegodanila

02-26-2008, 08:49 PM

Randy_Rivera

02-26-2008, 08:54 PM

basil carating

02-26-2008, 09:13 PM

[quote=Tard Santos;343982]Ok hands down Kids.

Let's make this clear once and for all. For those people who has the money to buy and use light meters then I bet your money is worthit.

For those who has the money but doesn't need a light meter then you guys are fantastic photographers.

For those who doesn't have the money and who needs one then start saving some $$$ and get yourself a nice light meter.

And for those who doesn't know what a light meter is then do some research or ask Mr. Google.

Let us all respect eachother's opinions and let's stick to the topic and always rememeber that "fighting over the internet is just like joining in special olympics, even if you win you're still retarded. "

good point of view but we've gone back to the first problem- in more "advanced societies", they don't use the "R" word anymore. it's just sad that we can still throw around that word with wild abandon. i'm sorry but i've volunteered working with these special people and it is just not fair to call them retarded. lets be careful and fair and considerate and even "politically correct" next time. sorry but i will always take exception to this remark. we are in the new millenium. we don't live in caves anymore.

LeandroLosaria

02-26-2008, 10:28 PM

After reading from top to bottom... I therefore conclude that I really need to buy a light meter.

I don't care if people call me an idiot if I buy one, i guess it would be more idiotic if i don't.

Hmmmm, the problem is I don't know how to use one. Mr. Alonzo?

watch a tutorial vid here
http://acebalasador.multiply.com/video/item/3/Digital_Photography_1_on_1_Episode_2_How_to_read_l ight_meters

:D

olivertagayun

02-26-2008, 11:15 PM

welcome to the digital world

marley manongtong

02-26-2008, 11:54 PM

PREFERENCES. can we not leave it at that?
and why not read both articles first before barking at each other...

kengo

02-27-2008, 02:26 AM

welcome to the digital world

The media may have changed, but everything else is like what it use to be. Strobes still act the same way they did, thus measuring them is also still the same. We may now have the convenience of instant feedback in our LCD, but using it to get me light measurement is ironicaly less convenient. I need to shoot, review, adjust, then keep doing it till I nail it. Having a light meter removes the shoot and review part, thus eliminating 2/3 of the steps required.

Its not that it can't be done, but faster without a light meter in my workflow is highly doubtful. Plus consistency is also a plus for me when using a meter, since how I view the camera LCD or even the computer's monitor changes as my eyes get tired. I also can't imagine trying to view and gauge exposure from an LCD outdoor in very bright conditions.

You have your style and I have my own style, I try to respect that, but mentioning things like "An idiot for me is a person who spend resources (money) that is totally useless!:D Like the light meter, DSLR today have a built in meter, a histogram program installed like the one i used in photoshop, and a 2.5 lcd monitor or you can hook up th dslr to a pc to look at the light and shadow of one's work. If this 4 reason is not enough i don't know who still need a lightmeter maybe the real idiot:Thinking:" seems uncalled for.

Though honestly I am intrigued on how you do it, measuring flash with the camera's light meter, using the histogram in gauging extreme strobe lighting conditions (high key and low key). Maybe you can graciously invite me to one of your shoots, would love to see how this is done, or better yet lets set-up an EB on how to shoot strobes without a flash meter. I would gladly host it in my studio, I would love to learn new approaches to strobe lighting.

Ken

Randy_Rivera

02-27-2008, 03:33 AM

@olivertagayun (http://digitalphotographer.com.ph/forum/member.php?u=3411), haha, you better prepare to defend your statement. you will regret you even made a comment like that.

"i don't know who still need a lightmeter maybe the real idiot"

olivertagayun

02-27-2008, 05:03 AM

i talked to jason tablante 2-3 weeks ago in an SSPS meeting, he said he still uses a light meter and said that it is an essential tool for him, based on your statement he, a (world) reknowned photographer, is an idiot
Oh my gulayness leandro your NAME DROPPING NOW! PLS dont do it again Jason Tablante did not even reply on this tread! i have lots of respect on him because he selfishly share his knowledge during the southside EB. Why dont you share your own expertise on light meter Do you have one, what brand? work flow of your light meter? something like that ok:) NAME DROPPING MAKES YOU LOOK LIKE A TRAPO the senate might investigate you :)

olivertagayun

02-27-2008, 05:18 AM

Sad to say the author of the site you listed is an idiot.
We are talking of using the meter for measuring the relative brightness and contrast ratio of different light sources as well as in gauging the relative brightness levels of the scene that needs to be photographed so we'll know how to augment the lighting if need be. And to run your camera, the camera relies in an internal light meter to give u the appropriate EV settings. Of course, it's possible to shoot without the meter, but having the meter on hand makes you more efficient if not effective.

@ kengo and randy rivera I am just replying to the first user of the word idiot jay alonzo that is why i qouted him in my reply, thats all :)

Brian Santos

02-27-2008, 05:49 AM

Excellent thread -----> Saved to my favorites

ikelozada

02-27-2008, 06:13 AM

actually sir ken, when i checked oliver's shots, obviously he didn't meter nga. im refering to mga studio shoots nya. i'm wondering if bakit may mga shadows na dark really under the chin or side of face at times. eto ba are intentional or dahil it wasn't checked cos there is not meter. it works naman procedure nya kaya lang parang shots ko he he but im just amateur pa lang so dont know what im doing he he peace! :Grin:

Ken on Oliver:

You have your style and I have my own style, I try to respect that, but mentioning things like "An idiot for me is a person who spend resources (money) that is totally useless!:D Like the light meter, DSLR today have a built in meter, a histogram program installed like the one i used in photoshop, and a 2.5 lcd monitor or you can hook up th dslr to a pc to look at the light and shadow of one's work. If this 4 reason is not enough i don't know who still need a lightmeter maybe the real idiot:Thinking:" seems uncalled for.

Though honestly I am intrigued on how you do it, measuring flash with the camera's light meter, using the histogram in gauging extreme strobe lighting conditions (high key and low key). Maybe you can graciously invite me to one of your shoots, would love to see how this is done, or better yet lets set-up an EB on how to shoot strobes without a flash meter. I would gladly host it in my studio, I would love to learn new approaches to strobe lighting.

Ken

basil carating

02-27-2008, 08:56 AM

The media may have changed, but everything else is like what it use to be. Strobes still act the same way they did, thus measuring them is also still the same. We may now have the convenience of instant feedback in our LCD, but using it to get me light measurement is ironicaly less convenient. I need to shoot, review, adjust, then keep doing it till I nail it. Having a light meter removes the shoot and review part, thus eliminating 2/3 of the steps required.

Its not that it can't be done, but faster without a light meter in my workflow is highly doubtful. Plus consistency is also a plus for me when using a meter, since how I view the camera LCD or even the computer's monitor changes as my eyes get tired. I also can't imagine trying to view and gauge exposure from an LCD outdoor in very bright conditions.

You have your style and I have my own style, I try to respect that, but mentioning things like "An idiot for me is a person who spend resources (money) that is totally useless!:D Like the light meter, DSLR today have a built in meter, a histogram program installed like the one i used in photoshop, and a 2.5 lcd monitor or you can hook up th dslr to a pc to look at the light and shadow of one's work. If this 4 reason is not enough i don't know who still need a lightmeter maybe the real idiot:Thinking:" seems uncalled for.

Though honestly I am intrigued on how you do it, measuring flash with the camera's light meter, using the histogram in gauging extreme strobe lighting conditions (high key and low key). Maybe you can graciously invite me to one of your shoots, would love to see how this is done, or better yet lets set-up an EB on how to shoot strobes without a flash meter. I would gladly host it in my studio, I would love to learn new approaches to strobe lighting.

Ken

hi ken,

i wish all posters in this forum are as even-keeled and level- headed as yourself. you are a true gentleman and i seriously and honestly commend you. it was precisely the reason why the other thread where we discussed this same topic did not regress into the low level of name calling as this one- you being there and our desire to intelligently talk about what's on our minds and our experiences.

to my credit,you must agree that the thread starter shot himself on the foot with his arrogant pronouncements and when i responded in jest ( ouch) , he further smashed that foot with a hammer by reiterating that my methods are "the idiot's way of doing things".
and arrogantly pronounced that it's his last post and he's never coming back - because of people like me who have " no basis on agreeing or disagreeing" and have "closed minds" and so it's "sorry for him" and "not my loss." this was further complicated by another poster who dared me to "deny that i am an idiot" and proceeded to call me a litany of names. he, appaarently is a doctor of some sorts and pronounced that i will make "an interesting case in his practice" just like the thread starter he retreated into his hole. i really can not fathom his behaviour more so for a person of his stature and the only reason i can think of is because he shoots olympus. well, even though i am embarassed for this thread to continue, i am still here because i am man enough to stand my ground- and talk to people, level-headed people like yourself and archie, and bernie, doc diego ,peter jaena and others who re-injected civility to this thread.

i am not taking up the cudgels for oliver because he is his own man but i believe unkind words were said in anger during the heat of the "discussion" and the time where this thread has ebbed into a level where i suggested for it to be closed. i believed then that no intelligent photographer should participate in this farce any longer. i must confess that i was very angry too. but when you go down to the level where people want you to go down to, anger does not end.

for the record and i will say it again, i relied on light and flashmeters for more than two thirds of my long career. i owned 7 of them during that time. if one can remember, i told in great detail in this forum how, about just a few months ago, i was with a group of 40 other
DPPers ( ONE-ROLL EB) in quiapo when a young man, boldly and cooly walked up to me and slashed the lanyard of a brand new GOSSEN DIGISIX off my neck! - yes, that was just a few months ago. i bought a lightmeter only a few months ago!

i started not relying on them more often than i should when digital came. i don't really dwell on the wrongness or rightness of using one because i found out to my satisfaction that i and my lab and my customers are very receptive of my final output. ah, as doc diego said- different strokes for different folks.. thanks for being a gentleman ken..

CocoyLopez

02-27-2008, 09:38 AM

@Basil,

I remember August of last year during our EB for a cause at the Ayala Greenfields, we were shooting models set up with multiple strobes that when we asked what camera setting to use and you said: "ISO 200, 1/100, F/18...". I must admit that I doubted you at first because of the multiple large strobes sorrounding the model, but I was surprised and viola! It was perfect exposure for my taste! I whispered to a friend beside me that "this guy knows his craft".

Seriously, the lightmeter has it's purpose and it's usefulness still attracts seasoned pros. But there are people that are comfortable without it and yet delivers the same perfect output similar to the ones who have it.

In the end, it is how the output is appreciated regardless how crude your techniques are as long as the job gets done! And this what really matters!

diwa_fernandez

02-27-2008, 09:48 AM

Hello, I'm just new here and been reading through the thread to update myself on what's going on around here and then I read this thread. I'm not really a professional photographer and you can say that it's sort of a hobby, also an influence of my father.

i don't know who still need a light meter maybe the real idiot

I really have to say that I felt dismayed when I read this post. My one weakness is using the flash and how I should set my metering and from time to time, I stray from using it.

Anyway from my father's teaching, using a light meter helps one achieve the right shot in just one go. My dad always told me to familiarize myself with a light meter so that one day or at the least I can visualize what kind of settings I should use without holding a light meter or even looking at the built in light meter.

It maybe an old school teaching but I believe that it's part of being a dedicated and disciplined photographer.

ricky_ladia

02-27-2008, 10:07 AM

I have respect for both sides, no question about how good these two posters are, Jay and Basil. They know what to do when it comes to photography lighting both are seasoned but have different disciplines.
I think the culprit here is the word "idiot" and let's not expound on this as it has nothing to do with photography.
In the olden days or what we call film days, the use of light meter is essential even if you are using a Polaroid back in your camera. And is and still a needed tool when it comes to studio photography as explained by Jay and Ken some posts back.
But today, the use of lightmeter or specifically a flashmeter is lessen because of the preview monitor that comes with our cameras. Most studio photogs like Escaler and Deri (who is an "old" friend) embraces the "no lightmeter" attitude when it comes to reading strobes. And i'm sure Angkol Basil uses his lightmeter until someone from LRT stole it from him! (hehehe!):D
I still love my Minolta Meter V and it's still working great after all these years, but the use of it was lessen when i got into digital photography years back. I don't find the use of flashmeter anymore when i'm using just two light,(more so when i'm using CLS with mini flashes or SB's) i know my lights and the intensity it gives that i can easily know the opening i should use at a certain set-up.
But for three or more lights, even if you know your lights well, the lightmeter is essential. Yes, you can do your lighting without it but the Flashmeter will make your lighting set-up fast, easy and accurate.:)

Have fun shooting... with or without lightmeter.:D

LeandroLosaria

02-27-2008, 12:05 PM

Oh my gulayness leandro your NAME DROPPING NOW! PLS dont do it again Jason Tablante did not even reply on this tread! i have lots of respect on him because he selfishly share his knowledge during the southside EB. Why dont you share your own expertise on light meter Do you have one, what brand? work flow of your light meter? something like that ok:) NAME DROPPING MAKES YOU LOOK LIKE A TRAPO the senate might investigate you :)

if you look at my post it's just a simple logical example based on your statement, you said people that uses light meters are idiots, jay tablante uses one so he is an idiot to you. now dont try to deny that you made that statement :D And funny that you reacted like this because there's not even a tinge of aggression within my posts towards you unlike yours calling me a trapo :D the issue isnt about if i use a lightmeter or not, it's your sweeping generalization that seems you didnt even tought of much. and when the likes of ken go came pounding on you it was me who you try to blow your steam on

and about that challenge of yours, how about we both attend ken go's "invitation", you w/o using a lightemeter while i use one

and me a trapo? i can call you something too, but, im no "keyboard warrior"

basil carating

02-27-2008, 05:46 PM

basil carating

02-27-2008, 06:21 PM

LeandroLosaria

02-27-2008, 06:27 PM

@sir basil
how about the next SPSS meeting will tackle about light meters then you conduct the lecture :D

basil carating

02-27-2008, 06:38 PM

@sir basil
how about the next SPSS meeting will tackle about light meters then you conduct the lecture :D

baka may magalit........hhihihihih...

diegodanila

02-27-2008, 08:46 PM

THANKS FOR THE KIND WORDS COCOY! but if some of you remember, i also brought four lightmeters then ( a reflected/incident, a spot meter, a cine and a special lux / luminance) and asked everybody if we had time to demonstrate them. since we didn't use them, doc diego offered me 1000 pesos for my spectra spot meter!! i said "dream on doc."

Hey... I did not know that.....or I already forgot that...Any way can U give us a lecture on light meter sa next SPSS meeting? My God...Im completely lost na!! Im a member of this club kaya lang I lost track of the next meeting. When is the next meeting so I can attend!
:(

basil carating

02-27-2008, 09:46 PM

Hey... I did not know that.....or I already forgot that...Any way can U give us a lecture on light meter sa next SPSS meeting? My God...Im completely lost na!! Im a member of this club kaya lang I lost track of the next meeting. When is the next meeting so I can attend!
:(

HEY DOK!
tentative sa march 13th. we still have to decide on the venue-makati or alabang. i happen to be the co-organizer (with ari velasco) for the meeting. he'll make the announcement soon as we have secured the place. yup, we're thnking of a little session- nothing major because of space and time constraints. watch for the announcement.

maxi_sanagustin

02-28-2008, 01:20 AM

i would want to use a light meter in a studio. very effective for me to get my exposure taste. i admire those who already know how to use it with or without.

Rolando Avecilla

02-28-2008, 02:35 AM

I have realized that the answer to the question; Do you really need a light/flash meter, depends on who is asking or who is being asked.

If we are going to ask experienced photographers, they may say NO. Most probably, they do not really need it. But I bet that once in the path of their career, they have used and needed one. Others may say it is a must for reasons of their own.

As for me, I am relying on my light meter. Even so, I couldn't say I am 100% proficient in using it. But I can proudly say I can produce better photos in a studio environment with less trial and error using a light meter than not using one. Maybe someday I will be able to shoot without it and come up with photos that seems to be products of using a light meter. Until then, my answer is, we do need light meter.

Unless newbies can suck the talents/experiences of meterless photographers, they too need to learn and use a light meter.

The phrase; to each his own doesn't apply in a sharing forum. If we are to follow this phrase, why do we need to be in a forum?

diegodanila

02-28-2008, 07:54 AM

Forum - ( Webster English dictionary) is a public meeting place for open discussion or it is medium of discussion where controversial issues, opinions or facts are being discussed and shared. It may or it may not arrived into a " conclusion " or norms or standards of practice. The norms and standards of practice may or may not be followed or applied by the individuals participanting in the medium. Forum discussions serves as a guidelines for individual decision making ( sorry for the OT and HTH..NO pun intended:))

otep_benavides

02-28-2008, 09:27 AM

HEY DOK!
tentative sa march 13th. we still have to decide on the venue-makati or alabang. i happen to be the co-organizer (with ari velasco) for the meeting. he'll make the announcement soon as we have secured the place. yup, we're thnking of a little session- nothing major because of space and time constraints. watch for the announcement.

tito basil, make it makati so spammy and i can join hehehe

kaihuang

03-07-2008, 10:37 AM

err dont want to sound like an idiot hehehe but i still use my light meter :P

both in and out of the studio, available light or studio light.. its very useful with multiple light setup and great for checking when you only have so much time to shoot the subject. lessen the time for guessing games.

even with digital/LCD previewing, the meter will help you do your job faster and cleaner.

now, in reality, i can do my shoots without any meter most of the time. since i know my lights well and can probably nail the exposure in 2 or 3 test shots. but i still prefer having the light meter around to help double check.

during film days, you really need to use light meter.. mahal ang mga polaroids and every click of film is expensive :)

Cesar Parroco

05-26-2008, 12:34 PM

what do you think is the best yet affordable light meter in the market now. after owning a couple of AB''s I felt the need of buying a light meter.

Jo Avila

05-26-2008, 12:36 PM

what do you think is the best yet affordable light meter in the market now. after owning a couple of AB''s I felt the need of buying a light meter.

I would recommend the Sekonic L-308s :D

Cheers!

Jo Avila

John Edward Taca

05-27-2008, 01:45 AM

L358 for me. buy philippines... youll know what i mean ; )

DerrickYap

06-19-2008, 10:34 PM

how do you test a light meter? or rather how would you know upon purchase that it is properly working and calibrated? do you need to calibrate lightmeters?

Vic Rosales

06-20-2008, 02:28 AM

meter the meter? hehe

inosarza

07-04-2008, 10:57 AM

just ran through this topic randomly, and was interested with what other people have to say..
ill separate my ideas into two, the first one is the output and the other is how to get your output.
first, i need my light meter cause it gives me the right exposure. its not that my eyes cannot recognize what is totally dark and what is totally blown out, i just need the perfect exposure. an increment from the perfect exposure can lead to a bad photo. sure i can perfect the exposure later, but this is what it is:

it is easier to darken or lighten a perfectly exposed photo, rather than make an under/over exposed photo look perfectly exposed.

thats my experience in photo retouching.

second, how to get my output.
i like to get my exposures correct in the shortest amount of time. that means more shooting time for me, instead of running to my lights once in a while to add/lessen power, then going back to my camera, test shot, preview, asses, running back to my lights again, then to my camera, test shot, preview, asses, run back to my camera, add power, back to my camera, test shot, preview, asses. [repeat till fade..]
that's just time consuming. when you do portraiture, you use a long lens [i use my 50mm for my cropped body somethimes, and i think that's fine], and man, that means your too far back from your lights..you'll be tired from going back and forth before you can even start to shoot..

that's just me. but then again, everything boils down to your final output :)

ino

inosarza

07-04-2008, 10:58 AM

hahaha! i just saw that it was my first post! :D

christopher cortez

07-04-2008, 12:21 PM

some people love taking short cuts. My opinion is that if youre a seasoned photographer with much experience with YOUR lights then you can opt to not use a lightmeter simply because you already know your lights enough to approximate the settings. Ive seen professionals put a light stand down with a head and say this is f8 and true enough it is f8.

The point here is that the noobs think they can do it too. Theyll use the histogram to try and read the exposure and they look at the LCD to see if exposure is correct. Chances are theyll get it wrong. After spending 50k on their lens, another 50k on their camera and another 50k for their lights they end up scrimping 5k and not get a decent lightmeter.

they read something over the internet and take it as bible truth.

ari_velazco

07-04-2008, 08:44 PM

Having one or not having one does not make you less a photographer. It's just a tool that makes the job easier and faster to arrive at an accurate reading.

I use 2 kinds, one for ambient and one for spot. Cant afford the high end sekonics :)

basil carating

07-04-2008, 10:14 PM

basil carating

07-04-2008, 10:24 PM

or as my wife would put it...... "it's just like VIAGRA- some men need it, some men don't"

ari_velazco

07-04-2008, 11:53 PM

OT: Unkol, I'm excited to see your silvestri already :)

Jo Avila

07-05-2008, 12:57 AM

My handheld incident lightmeters are suddenly getting extra use :D

I've been using them whenever I shoot with my Horizon S3 U-500.

Cheers!

Jo Avila

bongbajo

07-05-2008, 03:14 AM

Will surely want to have one...if I can afford it.

Cheers!

basil carating

07-05-2008, 05:51 AM

OT: Unkol, I'm excited to see your silvestri already :)

oh i am more excited- got a call from an old friend, offering me a graflex crown graphic special 4 x 5 with a 135 xenar. asking $300. i want it like i want a hole in my head so i will make tawad and pass it on to you. it's mint- worth at least $700. ill work on it and pm you if you are interested.

David Tong

07-05-2008, 08:58 AM

Wow, great deal!

ari_velazco

07-05-2008, 09:40 AM

oh i am more excited- got a call from an old friend, offering me a graflex crown graphic special 4 x 5 with a 135 xenar. asking $300. i want it like i want a hole in my head so i will make tawad and pass it on to you. it's mint- worth at least $700. ill work on it and pm you if you are interested.

I had one before unkol, i regret selling it. It's very portable for a 4x5. You can even shoot it hand held :D One thing i can't do with the view camera i have. PM me sir if you can bargain pa and if it comes with film holders :D

To go back to topic.. I need a lightmeter for these types of cameras :D

basil carating

07-06-2008, 04:38 AM

I had one before unkol, i regret selling it. It's very portable for a 4x5. You can even shoot it hand held :D One thing i can't do with the view camera i have. PM me sir if you can bargain pa and if it comes with film holders :D

To go back to topic.. I need a lightmeter for these types of cameras :D

this is mura lang but you need a spot metering one for your (large format) ZONE SYSTEM.

http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-cameras-camcorders-SEKONIC-L-398-LIGHT-METER-W0QQAdIdZ58346591

basil carating

07-06-2008, 05:32 AM

or this one ari.. sus! ganda..

http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-cameras-camcorders-BRONICA-ETRSi-ETR-Si-75MM-PE-AE-III-PRISM-PWR-WINDER-W0QQAdIdZ56058187

basil carating

07-06-2008, 06:19 AM

or you can buy this lightmeter for 700 dollars..... but includes a complete hasselblad outfit with metz flash .. hehehehehe!

http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-cameras-camcorders-Hasselblad-500c-W0QQAdIdZ53496750

ari_velazco

07-06-2008, 09:58 AM

I have a dedicated spot and the l358 sir. but this is very temptimg :)
http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-cameras-camcorders-HASSELBLAD-500C-M-camera-W0QQAdIdZ58005648

Johnny Lim

07-22-2008, 08:32 PM

SEKONIC 308s any idea how much in MM

bongbajo

07-23-2008, 03:06 AM

If only they are affordable. :)

good to have item.

KerwinJonathanRefe

07-23-2008, 12:04 PM

Johnny - 8300 in aperture

victor_vesuna

07-24-2008, 09:02 AM

SEKONIC 308s any idea how much in MM

only P7,500 in Pixel Pro and Watsons
a very useful gadget
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3012/2640605443_0d9c531e5f.jpg

NIXZER MOYA

07-24-2008, 10:32 AM

I always bring my lightmeter with me whenever i have a studio or outdoor shoot....always makes my work easier :)

Jo Avila

07-24-2008, 10:47 AM

only P7,500 in Pixel Pro and Watsons
a very useful gadget
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3012/2640605443_0d9c531e5f.jpg

This is the same model that I keep on recommending to my students to purchase.

It's a great barebones entry level incident lightmeter.

IMO, it has the basic functions that you will need in the long run.

Cheers!

Jo Avila

Dennis Santarinala

07-24-2008, 11:03 AM

I use my lightmeter all the time. On location or in studio. Especially with the type of art fashion layouts I do.

When you are getting paid for a photoshoot, its not really your time anymore. Its actually your client's already and to make everything easier and fast, a lightmeter is a good tool to get metering out of the way. I dont think you arent an idiot for using one. Those photographers who doesnt use it probably shoot just for the hell of it and have all the time in the world to figure out their metering. Or theyre just too good at it to not have one.

But yeah I use it to make my shoot turnaround faster and have me focus on more important stuff.

victor_vesuna

07-24-2008, 09:05 PM

This is the same model that I keep on recommending to my students to purchase.

It's a great barebones entry level incident lightmeter.

IMO, it has the basic functions that you will need in the long run.

Cheers!

Jo Avila

It's one of the most useful photo gadget that I have ever used indoor or outdoor

Jonathan Burgos

11-27-2008, 08:29 PM

a very informative thread...

edvinsantiago

01-28-2009, 04:23 AM

To Basil : I would love to learn how to shoot without a light meter.... for i haven't used one! but it'll be nice i guess to learn how at least it works.... would you be kind enough to teach?!...

basil carating

01-28-2009, 04:48 AM

rannydaroya

01-28-2009, 05:01 AM

you should have one first before you can learn not to use it.

That's the perfect word to say I guess.....

just like "learn from your own experience"

nikko_chua

02-01-2009, 12:25 AM

don't know if this is already a doubled post but...

i've stumbled upon this information while learning basic metering & exposure:

"All in-camera light meters have a fundamental flaw: they can only measure reflected light. This means the best they can do is guess how much light is actually hitting the subject."

from this site:
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/camera-metering.htm

so i guess that's why handheld meters are still beng sold.

rudytolentino

02-01-2009, 07:29 AM

To Basil : I would love to learn how to shoot without a light meter.... for i haven't used one! but it'll be nice i guess to learn how at least it works.... would you be kind enough to teach?!...

this may help you.

quote- With today’s digital technology, you simply click the shutter and there ya go… Instant, cost free, test polaroids (without the Polaroid) So what if the exposure is wrong? Shoot another picture, stupid! :+) If it’s too dark, adjust. Too light? Adjust! What’s the big freakin deal? Use the histogram as your meter. If that puppy is over too far to the right, stop down. If it’s over too far to the left, open up. Shoot, view, adjust. Repeat as needed.
Some people might argue, what about light ratios? How do I know what the light ratios are without a light meter? WHO CARES!? If the shadows are too dark, add some fill light! Too Flat, take some fill away. You don’t need a light meter, trust me.-unquote

from

http://www.professionalphotography101.com/photography/dont_need_meter.html

David Tong

02-01-2009, 10:01 AM

For normal shooting, I'd say no you don't... but if you're using multiple strobes and have to work with different light ratios for key, fill, hair, background, it's MUCH faster using a flash meter than trying to look at the LCD. The histogram won't help in this case as much. Probably you won't need one if you shoot tethered all the time for large screen scrutiny.

Franz A.D. Morales

02-08-2009, 02:15 AM

Just got me a nifty Sverdlovsk-4 meter (pretty cool, it's both an incident and reflective meter. Poor man's spot meter with an FOV of about 135mm on film) to use with my forthcoming meterless 6x6. Smallest semi-spotmeter I've held or seen but bulky to use with its AA adaptor.

Read that I can use LS47 batteries on it, or one of them computer batteries... I don't care much about the LS47's since I'd have to recalibrate the meter (I'm OC that way) but with the computer batteries, very minimal calibration needed... anyway, is there anyone here uses this kind of meter? Where do I get these computer batteries (I think it's for backing up memory or something, used in the motherboard.)

basil carating

02-08-2009, 02:33 AM

Franz A.D. Morales

02-08-2009, 05:51 PM

so you're fixated with russkie stuff you big commie! try kremlinoptics.com - just across the street from me. but whatever you do, don't get a kiev 6x6- total G-A-R-B-A-G-E !!

haha not really fixated, it's just that russkie stuff is more within my budget... read lotsa disturbing stuff about the kiev, so scratch that! haha... maybe a nice FED or zorki leica copy? Will go well with my sverdlovsk-4 light meter!

paolo navarrete

07-24-2010, 11:20 AM

this is a nice thread to re-read over and over again, and apart from the word war that happened at the start, anyone would learn a lot here on when or if you should still use a light meter.

i have one here with me and would like to use it in the field just as nachtwey kept on using his light meter in a part of the war photographer. (http://www.war-photographer.com/).

J0DETTE_ABAD

10-18-2010, 08:14 AM

start your own thread na! with pics!

and with ambient settings and histogram please.

Jeric Meren

10-18-2010, 06:10 PM

@ Jodette, this thread is more than a year old.. But still very fun & informative to read. :)

Nonie Villanueva

11-04-2010, 11:03 AM

Guys, just want to get your opinion on this 'insight' from Chase Jarvis - international award winning photographer.

Dear Light Meter: You’re Dead To Me (http://blog.chasejarvis.com/blog/2008/04/dear-light-meter-youre-dead-to-me/)

Thursday - 24th of April, 2008

http://www.chasejarvis.com/blog/uploaded_images/meter-768398.jpg (http://www.chasejarvis.com/blog/uploaded_images/meter-768398.jpg)In a recent post, reader Clay posed the following question in the comment section:
Do you ever use a light meter? If so, what are the situations?It’s a good, fair and simple question, so I’ll begin by answering it: Clay, not only don’t I use a light meter, but it’s been so long since I used one that–until you reminded me–I had nearly forgotten that they ever existed. Seriously.

Here’s why they’re less relevant than ever before: when you combine that LCD on the back of your digital camera with your brain you’ve got a better tool than you’d ever get from a hand held Star-Trek-looking thingie that spits out some strange, relational, numeric code. Am I right? Just take 5 pictures in as many seconds with a few adjustments here and there, and you’ve figured out where you need to be. Skip reading the ambient light (what a meter does), and just snap off a few pictures. Look at the back of your camera. Tweak your exposure to see what you want to see, and how you want to see it, right there on the back of your camera. Bingo.

Okay, okay. Before the haters mount their attack, I’m just getting your goat. Read more after the jump – click the ‘continue reading’ link below …

Clay’s question is a fine one, (and the above accurately characterizes how I nail down my exposure) but I’m really just using it as a springboard to get back at a larger point I’ve been hammering a lot lately: Sure, it’s incredibly valuable to know the ins and outs of the technical side of photography. I’m a huge advocate of that and I’ve paid my dues. You should too. But understanding the fundamentals of light and the mechanics of a camera and all the techno babble that’s all the rage online these days can only get you so far.

DO use the back of your camera, and don’t feel bad about it. Hell, go ahead and use a light meter and a 4×5 if you must – see if I care. Read reviews. Nerd out on gear. Whatever floats your boat.

But one thing is for sure: don’t ever confuse all the silly little gadgets and the silly little numbers with what it means to simply and eloquently capture a moment, a scene, or the essence of a human emotion – whatever it is that truly inspires you. You’ll be much better off for it, I promise.
Here's the link (http://digitalphotographer.com.ph/forum/http://blog.chasejarvis.com/blog/2008/04/dear-light-meter-youre-dead-to-me/) to the actual blog

chuckoreta

11-04-2010, 12:29 PM

Guys, just want to get your opinion on this 'insight' from Chase Jarvis - international award winning photographer.

Here's the link (http://digitalphotographer.com.ph/forum/http://blog.chasejarvis.com/blog/2008/04/dear-light-meter-youre-dead-to-me/) to the actual blog

To him, maybe it is, but to others, I guess it's still alive. :D

I have one. I bring every time I shoot in film cause my camera doesn't have a meter.

viktorguillen

11-04-2010, 01:54 PM

as per chuck, maybe it is really advisable that you use a light meter since you use film and your camera doesn't have a metering system.

IMO, a light meter is something you can do without. Yes, it can make your job easier and you can skip a few minutes before you take pictures but experience and studying lighting manually is still best for me. Yeah sure, i would love to own a light meter but the money i would spend on getting one could be better off buying lenses and stuff. It's a valuable piece of gadgetry but you can still shoot great photos without using a light meter. no hating to the people who do use a light meter.

Just my 2 cents.

rennellsalumbre

11-04-2010, 02:09 PM

I love my lightmeter! Saves me a lot of time. :D

chuckoreta

11-04-2010, 06:19 PM

I love my lightmeter! Saves me a lot of time. :D

i'm just wondering, how does it make you save time? :D i don't seem to save time when i use mine. hehehe!?

David Tong

11-04-2010, 07:54 PM

Key word that he used is "less relevant" - which doesn't mean it's useless, just less useful in today's TTL flash-enabled systems.

rennellsalumbre

11-04-2010, 10:47 PM

i'm just wondering, how does it make you save time? :D i don't seem to save time when i use mine. hehehe!?

it's easier for me to use off-cam strobes eh

Leo Aquino

11-05-2010, 01:15 AM

Nonie Villanueva

11-05-2010, 12:25 PM

Just a wild guess but I'm guessing that most of the people who don't use light meters are shooting ambient light only (or just one strobe or flash) and not using multiple flashes or strobes. It's a lot harder and takes more time to chimp using the LCD screen when trying to adjust the lighting ratio of multiple strobes and flashes. :)

It can be worked out I guess. You set up your main light at a certain power and set your exposure for that... and based on this power you set the ratio of the remaining strobes. Of course taking into consideration the distance of the strobe in relation to your subject. It takes experience and I guess that's what Chase Jarvis' is driving at, if you spent a lot of time working with strobes, you gain experience and you should already have an idea of how to work it out... even without a light meter and using just the LCD.

viktorguillen

11-05-2010, 01:18 PM

Just a wild guess but I'm guessing that most of the people who don't use light meters are shooting ambient light only (or just one strobe or flash) and not using multiple flashes or strobes. It's a lot harder and takes more time to chimp using the LCD screen when trying to adjust the lighting ratio of multiple strobes and flashes. :)

not really sir, you can still shoot with multiple strobes even if you don't have a light meter. it's just more tedious i think. i don't own a light meter, manual adjustment still can get the work done. i'm not that experienced but i think shooting a lot of times with your own equipment can help you adjust your equipment almost automatically when you shoot. ^^

ain't no pro. :)

David Tong

11-05-2010, 01:41 PM

It's a big waste of time not using a meter with multiple strobes particularly when you're not using the same model of light nor have the same distance/modifier installed. Not to mention how unprofessional you'll look in front of a client popping lights and chimping on every shot to see whether or not you've blown your whites or hair edges.

Speaking of which, this thread's conversation is the same as the older light-meter thread, so I'm merging them.

Nonie Villanueva

11-05-2010, 11:58 PM

Ultimately, we can say that each photographer has his own preference, style, and methods of "attacking" a lighting problem. We cannot categorically say that not using a light meter makes you a less “professional” photographer and in the same manner we cannot also say that just because we’re doing a commissioned work we have to use a light meter (some client couldn’t care less if you’re using one…some don’t even know what it is). At this point in time we can no longer say that using a light meter is the only ‘right’ way. It will all boils down to the photographer's skills and we cannot judge them merely by the equipments they have and the technology or methods they use.

Today, technology has given us more latitude in accomplishing our work as photographer. Shooting higher than ISO400 seemed unacceptable before in advertising. But now, even at ISO6400, we can have a decent image. Camera and lighting technology actually revolutionized the way we work. Some photographers adapted and embraced the technology and became successful with it. Others stick with the traditional way and still, they became successful as well.

About 'guestimating' our exposure in the LCD monitor, I don't see a problem with that. The LCD monitor is there for that purpose--to check our image--why not use it. I usually check my histogram as well when in doubt. If you missed by 1/3 or 1/2 stop we can always adjust it in the post production (if you shoot in RAW). This is what I mean by technology giving us more latitude. Sounds cheating? I don't think so...just more latitude. In darkroom days we do that as well aren't we? only now we use a different method, different tool. Now I'm not saying that getting the proper exposure is not that important. I admire the discipline of the film shooter, and their ability to pre-visualize the image, with the help of a light meter, before hitting the button. Photographic technology now, being easily accessible to almost anyone, seem to make this discipline trivial and that’s unacceptable to some photographers. But I guess, we don't really loose entirely that discipline, we just [have to] developed new different ones.

Whether we like it or not, digital post processing is here to stay and is readily available to almost every photography enthusiast. It is actually an inescapable process now in digital photography. It is reshaping the photography industry, and every photographer must be aware of these changes to explore his options to stay relevant in the industry. And at the end of the day, the FINAL IMAGE will still be the ultimate measure of your skill as a photographer.

I’d like to share this quote by photographer and author Tom Ang.

“Think of using technical controls not as a way to get the image right…but to get the expression right, to get your images to speak in a just the right ‘voice’” – Tom Ang

Remember, photography is both a left brain and a right brain discipline.