If you are thinking of working for nothing, please watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mj5IV23g-fE

It was sent by Gail Mooney of APAnet. Better still, join APAnet for more tips on the business of photography.

Harvey

Funny but sad, IMO.

Well, I feel proud I ain't like this in real life. I do a lot of things for free because I believe that everyone has a responsibility to give back something to our fellowmen. Just like the bible say, "man cannot live by bread alone".

I did not mean that we should never work for free, but we should choose for whom we do so. Certainly, we should offer our services, talents and resources freely to serve the poorest, the sick, and the most vulnerable, which by the way includes our environment. By all means, let us do photography for socially-responsible projects, but we should refuse to work for free for businesses, media included, that can afford to and should be paying us for the work that we do.

In our company, we have defined what we should/could do pro bono:
a. for advocacies and for projects of social and spiritual responsibility (for people, animals and institutions)
b. for pushing creative limits - meaning, we are willing to partner with our clients (in our case, ad agencies) in doing untested creative work that would otherwise not be financed by advertisers. (Note: while these images can be conceived and executed without pay, they should be paid for when adopted by clients and used commercially).

I would like to call on photographers to conserve their energies for free photography, and to spend them on worthy causes - whatever cause it is that each of you would like to support - instead of giving them away to people and companies who should be paying for photography.

very well said...

One of my bestfriends came up to me and asked me if i can shoot their food for a menu board. Naturally, i said okay. When the time came to negotiate for the terms, i told him that i can do it for free, no problem since he is a really good friend of mine. God bless his business sense, he reacted violently about me not getting paid for his shoot! =b He told me that business is business whether you're enjoying what your doing or not.

They are going to earn from the photos that i took, so it only makes sense that i get paid for my skill. In the end, me and my friend ended up drinking and getting drunk using the money that he paid me! =b

All's well that ends well! =D

The company i work for asked me to be a photographer for an outdoor shoot of clients doing Yoga. The Secretary of my Boss wanted me to go and Shoot the event for Free!....The Boss is actually an old friend of mine used to work form the previous company...found out that i might be doing a free job for the company of my friend (The Boss)...And he called the secretary and issued a contract for me that i will get paid of the sevice and all expense of the company...HAHHAHA!

this is such a relevant topic nowadays especially in photography...

I did a lot of free services, mostly in designs and photography for friends, school, etc. But it dawned on me that my services to them, which occupy my time and effort or skills, need a little or equal compensation.

Now, I do only free services to selected friends and the church and school if they are work related, but outside of it, I started to ask for a payment.

It's hard at first to say when I started to ask for a little compensation. So, here's what I said:

"Ma'am, Sir, pwede po bang meron itong budget kahit pang-load or battery man lamang?"
[Ma'am, Sir, do we have a budget on this, even just for load for my phone or battery replacement?"

Since then, I feel comfortable to give them my prices when asked how much they need to pay. Well, it works most of the time, but to others who are insensitive, I still accept free services, hoping someday they will notice. :)

It's funny how I went through a cycle: first I didn't charge for photography services because I didn't have enough self-confidence, then my rates started moving north up to a point where I actually have would-be customers say that they can't afford my rates. Now I'm back to not charging at all because I want to keep the hobby simply a hobby - I just make sure I don't steal somebody else's lunch before I take on the rare free shoot.

This reminds of the time I took photos for our company's corporate effects (e.g. posters, brochures, etc). This is for a special project that is being launched internally for the employees. The purchasing guys asked me to take photos of several employees in different settings (e.g working in their cubicles, drinking coffee @ Starbucks, etc.).

I did this gig for 1.5days (excluding some minor Lightroom work effort). Imagine this, I'm working for a 70-Billion dollar US company, but I got squat dollars doing this gig. I just did it for practice (and of course, because I love to shoot).

After reading this thread, I realized... I WAS BAMBOOZLED!!!! :(

Harlan Ellison's a freaking sci-fi legend! I have the same sentiment when certain individuals ask for my services for free. If charities ask for my help, sure why not if I'm free and got nothing else to do. If I get the services of a pro model, pro lights and pro studio for a minimum share-the-cost-of-rental I'll also do it for free. Heck that's still experience diba?

Last Christmas I brought my 10D to our school's Christmas party. I did it because I wanted to have some fun by taking photos of my schoolmate and teachers. My two friends also brought their 350D and 30D to school for some fun as well. It raised some eyebrows that the school even did an X-deal with the three of us deducting so-so many hours from our community service. Seeming we ain't crazy we accepted for the price of touch up time and a CD-R.

A few days before our school's first anniversary the three of us were invited to attend. We were told not to tell anyone and that we were to show up at this time with the uniforms on. I not being the snob or stupid to turn down free food and booze went along with it. I started speculating why the three of us were invited. Could it be for our scholastic achievement? Our family/biz background? These were plausible explanation but as the night progressed it turned out they were expecting us to bring our cameras and document their party. It did cross my mind that they wanted our cameras when my friend wanted to bring his 350D along to which I told him not to bother bringing. The fella with the 30D was bright enough to bring his either.

It happened again during our class picture when they asked me to bring my gear along to which I explained it was in the province. I warned my friend that they'll be asking him as well to which he explained it was being cleaned. When I brought my 40D to school the owner's boyfriend got miffed and asked why I couldn't lend them the camera in my hand. I told him I just bought it yesterday and the class shoot was last week.

I made it my business to mention to the boyfriend that the camera equipment they requested was in the province being used for a wedding and govt project which we were getting paid for. Let it be known that his reaction was priceless. :)

I find it quite insulting that these some expect me and my friends to work for free when their tuition fees costs hundreds of pesos. It would sting less if they'd requested and offered us compensation even it were a small amount. We after all invested millions of pesos into our gear.

I usually give my services for free for charities, foundations (those real tight-budgetted ones, not the big foundations based and renting room in Ayala Avenue buildings). Nagsisi ako when I gave my services for free/or low priced nuon coz my clients kept on asking me the same quotation after completing the projects. Masasanay yung client based on the original quotation you gave them.

Hi All,

Since im just a newbie in this hobby...i dont know if this is a good mindset.. since i have no much that credentials to prove i tend to get some projects first for free..then if i have enough portfolio and credible skills,experience to offer i'll start asking for a TF. Is this good?

Talking about business.. When I was living in New Zealand (I was majoring in Photography, Film and Video at a Fine Arts school), I borrowed the school's 30D and decided to take it to my older sister's hockey game, which she usually has every Sunday. There, I decided to take sports shots, nothing special. At our school, we were sorta taught to be more artistic with our shots, and so that weekend, it came as a challenge to me to not take any cliche-ish shots of hockey players.

Weeks later, my sister's team mate who is also the Marketing Manager of the team approached me asking if I could take photos for the team, but it was going to be pro bono work because the pictures taken will only be used in their newsletter. I remember, a couple of days before that, we had workshop week where a professional photographer had given us a lecture about doing pro bono work and how even with free work, there should always be a contract signed by the photographer and the client, and also a receipt that says "100% discount". Weeks went by and even months, up to the point I was to leave New Zealand, my sister told me to copy the photos onto her computer that I took because her team mate wanted them. And I mentioned that there should be a contract signed and I mentioned why. And she contested. My sister's a lawyer and she couldn't understand where I was coming from. She said that the team wasn't going to make any money out of it anyway, and I didn't ask consent from her team mates to have their photos taken so they have every right to the photo because they are in it.

So who does have the right to these photos?

(Sorry, it's a very long and boring story)

Hi All,

Since im just a newbie in this hobby...i dont know if this is a good mindset.. since i have no much that credentials to prove i tend to get some projects first for free..then if i have enough portfolio and credible skills,experience to offer i'll start asking for a TF. Is this good?
Now that is humility right there. :D

Since Joel, is saying he's a newbie, I'm 1/200 of a newbie. My story: At first I tagged along with a pro photographer-friend in his gigs, as an act of appreciation for the opportunity, i gave him the photos in cd-roms.

A few weeks back, i was asked to cover a sub-contracted bday with their(same fotog friend) studio's videographer. I did not ask for how much I'd be getting out of the gig (I'm a little shy still), at the end of the day, the compensation i got was less than half the price of renting a DSLR for a day's shoot. Hmmm.. so, just so i don't feel bad (which i cant help ) i just thought.. its "ok" since i'm still using my pop-up flash(hehehe), and when i get my flash gun i could probably talk of the terms before i commit for the shoot.

:D

AubreyRodriguez:
From what I learned in mass com law you have the right towards the photographs since it was you who took them. It doesn't matter who's in the photograph however, if you have any intention of publishing the picture or selling it, that's when you need a model release form, otherwise you could be sued, etc.

I totally agree with the contract thing even if it's a pro bono thing the contract is there to protect your rights as a photographer. For example if it's indicated in the contract that they can't use your photo's for anything other than the newsletter then that's just protecting your rights. :)

Now that is humility right there. :D

Since Joel, is saying he's a newbie, I'm 1/200 of a newbie. My story: At first I tagged along with a pro photographer-friend in his gigs, as an act of appreciation for the opportunity, i gave him the photos in cd-roms.

A few weeks back, i was asked to cover a sub-contracted bday with their(same fotog friend) studio's videographer. I did not ask for how much I'd be getting out of the gig (I'm a little shy still), at the end of the day, the compensation i got was less than half the price of renting a DSLR for a day's shoot. Hmmm.. so, just so i don't feel bad (which i cant help ) i just thought.. its "ok" since i'm still using my pop-up flash(hehehe), and when i get my flash gun i could probably talk of the terms before i commit for the shoot.

:D
================================================== ====


Oh, :) but the repair of damaged pop-up flash is more expensive than repair of damaged flash gun.

Even though prices of Digital SLR's have dropped tremendously, it is still a big amount of money. So to many they would want to use the equipment they bought to pay for itself, so they try getting into the business of photography. We were all once a beginner with not enough skills and lack of confidence, but we must never forget how a business works. I have heard these quite too often "practice" "portfolio" and etc., but one can actually do all this without having a business entity reaping all the profits in your expense. As your skills develop, confidence will follow. You wouldn't want these businesses to think that photography service is cheap and free, or else you are screwing up the industry (photography) you actually plan to get into. As prices for our services drop, and equipment, electricity, labor, transportation not dropping, it will take you longer if not forever trying to recover your expenses all these because the model is pretty?

If confidence is still lacking even if skills are there, then sadly your on the wrong business. Part of a good photography business is marketing one self, since we don't really have a physical item to sell, to market one self, confidence (to a point you will be coming out as a bit arrogant) is the key. When we do presentations, we can't just stay quiet and let our works speak for ourselves, cause sadly it rarely works. One must know how to win a clients heart. Confidence is also very important in a shoot, particularly when live models are concerned, you need to be able to direct your models with conviction, and earn their respect in doing so. You can't rely on "bahala ka sa gusto mong pose", some models will attack such vulnrability and take control of the shoot, making you look bad in front of the client.

That is why when you read comments or talk to other photographers, you may feel them as being an arrogant bunch, but I feel artist in general are (or should be) arrogant. One must have a belief in its own work, I can't offer my services if I myself don't like the works I make.

When I was starting, I was tempted to offer my service for free just for the opportunity, good thing my business sense kicked in, and since I knew I already had the skill (hobbyist for like 10 years, apprenticed with PRO photographers before turning PRO), I decided from the start what fees I would want. Ironicaly its now that I sometimes offer my services free, with similar reasons to Harvey, for charities or an idea I want to experiment with.

I'm not a baller in charging photog fees, but I also believe in not charging for socio-civic work that I choose to support.

In some karmic cycle, these pro bono jobs, with no original intention for anything except support, has landed me paying jobs for other less cause oritented projects.

i shoot the urcc events and the jiu jitsu events for free...

for the urcc, i know the organizers and they even invite me to their pre-fight events. they invite me because they know i love to shoot mixed martial arts and i always give them a cd of all the shots..some they use on their website and some shots to show their sponsors...i love the fights and so it doesn't bother me one bit...they give me complete access during the urcc, heck they even feed me

the same goes for the jiu jitsu/grappling events...i know for a fact that they do not budget for pro photogs but then again i know the organizers and in fact have trained with them (even if just once) in the past...again i give them cd's

in both cases, some of the teams even ask for copies for their brochures and websites...

i don't charge them for that and in return they always offer me the chance to drop by their gyms and train or spar for free...the only thing i ask if proper credit be given which they always do give

My experience in this subject is concluded to the fact that every images that I take, wether a freebee or paid for, is my intellectual property. Usually I get the client, wether a friend, company or relatives, to understand and agree in writing that they don't own the images and that they have to sign a release and a contract if they want the pictures. And, they are authorized to use the images only for their personal use other than that they have to get an authorization from me in writing. If I agree to be not paid for my services, I clearly convey to the client that my time and work is a donation or a gift. Since donations in time or in kinds to not-for-profit-organizations are tax deductible in some countries like the USA, I usually give the client a quote and a contract to sign so that I could declare the amount in my taxes. I always treat everyone that approach me for my services as a client and I always tell them in a very nice way that my time and talent has a price. I don't know how many in this forum made photography as their bread and butter, or thinking about going the professionals' way. If you do, your time, skills and talents has a price and don't under sell yourself.

Sent this thread to a friend who occasionally shoots professionally (i.e., he charges). This is his response...

Sorry too late, several million amateurs worldwide are already giving it away for free. No one told them they were intruding into someone's else lunch, although for most I doubt it would make a difference even if they knew.

I do not disagree with what was posted, in fact I always charged where possible in favor of charitable causes. But photography has changed ever since the rest of the world discovered point and shoots. It was no longer someone's profession. It was now their new found world. Photography belonged to them now. Just like rock and roll, apple pie, and the internet.

And while we real fotogs debate on what should be free or not, we are a minority that will get even more insignificant once P&S's produce photos rivaling today's dslrs. Those cameras of the future will likely still not take pictures by themselves <g>, but when you consider what this industry has achieved in the last 5 years you should discount what's possible in the next fifteen.

Is it a lost cause then? No, I don't think so, but only because nothing ever is. Real photographers should find higher-value things to do, stay ahead of the technology curve, else perish. The last time I checked, telephone switchboard operators are no longer a job description in America...

Some food for thought...

I'd go with Jerry Tieng on this one. At some point, I did consider the financial aspect. But then after some soul-searching, I realized that I was into it for therapeutic as well as artistic purposes. If I thought about ROI, I'd be miserable. Worse, I'd be compromising my work in certain situations.

As to giving it away for free... this is tough. But it needs to be addressed on a case-to-case basis.

It just sucks that people then take advantage of the fact that you enjoy what you do. To which I say, "go hire a pro" ;)

this is a really interesting topic that momentarily yanked me from my lurker mode. personally, i do pro bono work for people i really know needs the help and can't afford hiring a photographer. i also used to entertain requests from both local and overseas companies and institutions about using my images for this and that charity project.

what kept me from continuing to do this is a number of requests i got from companies with offices along ayala avenue/ortigas (i read this in a post in this thread and sadly, this is true). it's not that easy to distinguish a truly charitable cause from a company just wanting to avail of free photography services which is detrimental to us photographers. i'm still very much open to helping out but i want to balance this with shoots that allow me to earn a bit so i can reinvest in my gear.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/oggie

very interesting thread. you guys should also know the wars between commercialized IP and the Open Source world. :)

It's a reality that we should accept. if one intends to go beyond photography as a hobby and starts entertaining thoughts of monetizing his/her intellectual properties, one better understands that there will always be competition when the topic borders on money matters. Whether it is called undercutting, eating other's lunch, leveling up or doing "charity" work, in whatever form, giving things away for free dilutes whatever value that you can derive out of something. but whether it's ethical or not, that is entirely a different matter. But one can look at giving away for free as an investment meant for future or long term gains.

I am a newbie in photography and I am hoping that someday I make money out of it. But if I want to go pro tomorrow, then i should consider whatever legal/ethical means just to get proper exposure and experience so i get known to my target market. That could possibly include giving away things for free (which will probably look like undercutting the pros). If that would entail giving away my work for free, or even paying for it, I would somehow weigh and do things if it will help my cause in any way.

Bottomline is that a newbie + good talent in photography + willingness to give out free work/services <is not> undercutting everyone else. It just means things have changed and we have to adjust.

shameless plug: if there are pretty couples out there who wants pre-nups for free, pm me :) I am in for an x-deal.

Talking about business.. When I was living in New Zealand (I was majoring in Photography, Film and Video at a Fine Arts school), I borrowed the school's 30D and decided to take it to my older sister's hockey game, which she usually has every Sunday. There, I decided to take sports shots, nothing special. At our school, we were sorta taught to be more artistic with our shots, and so that weekend, it came as a challenge to me to not take any cliche-ish shots of hockey players.

Weeks later, my sister's team mate who is also the Marketing Manager of the team approached me asking if I could take photos for the team, but it was going to be pro bono work because the pictures taken will only be used in their newsletter. I remember, a couple of days before that, we had workshop week where a professional photographer had given us a lecture about doing pro bono work and how even with free work, there should always be a contract signed by the photographer and the client, and also a receipt that says "100% discount". Weeks went by and even months, up to the point I was to leave New Zealand, my sister told me to copy the photos onto her computer that I took because her team mate wanted them. And I mentioned that there should be a contract signed and I mentioned why. And she contested. My sister's a lawyer and she couldn't understand where I was coming from. She said that the team wasn't going to make any money out of it anyway, and I didn't ask consent from her team mates to have their photos taken so they have every right to the photo because they are in it.

So who does have the right to these photos?

(Sorry, it's a very long and boring story)



Your work is your intellectual property Aubrey. However, if you intend to publish your photos of the event, especially those with identifiable persons, you will need their consent. Nevertheless, you cannot be forced to give up any copies since you own the photos and nobody else.

http://shimworld.wordpress.com/2006/11/03/pro-for-nothing-and-insults-for-free/

Good thing I advised my brother to hire a pro photog instead of relying on me and my other bro to shoot his wedding. Wheow!:) This is what I'm afraid of and considering I'm not a pro. Though his on a tight budget, I insisted and politely explained the possible consequences. I just told him I'll be a backup photog na lang shooting candids and ither subjects.

It's all about control. Communicating your rules to the couple, scripting the shots you need etc. The photographer has to have full control of the situation or at least talk to the coordinator/host for a smoother work situation.

Discount = disrespect

Live and learn, many of us have done it and will continue to do it for friends and family. It's just hard to say no sometimes. Just remember that discount or free services are never quite seen as having the same monetary value as if they paid.

I get asked a lot here (in the US) for ridiculously huge discounts because I say "yes" when Filipinos ask me if I'm Filipino.

this thread made me more worried than I already am. a friend recently asked me to photograph their wedding and i was too shy to say no. they just find hiring a photographer too expensive thats why they asked me to shoot at their wedding. he says he doesnt mind that im not experienced he just want someone to shoot at their wedding. but still me thinks its not a good idea. i dunno know really what to say!

if you are doing it for the right reasons it does not mean you down grade your quality of photogrpahy. Doing it for free is your choice...it is also your choice to scrimp on quality. In the end the people who will eventually view the photos will probably not even know that it was shot for free. And it will be your photogrpahy that will be placed on the line. In my honest opinion. If youe choose to give your services for free...you still have to put your 100 percent effort out.

Greg, I don't think the blogger failed to give it his best shot, the problem with his case is that they previously agreed upon what to be included and excluded, but the recipients insisted that he should've covered the pre-wedding events such as make-up even if they've agreed beforehand that that's not inclusive.

hmmm....

now i'm beginning to rethink my offer to shoot my cuz's wedding for free hehehe...

thanks for sharing David

maybe he just got creative and veered away from the usual output. We claim to photojournalistic???? but our clients really just are the traditional ones???? so sometimes veering away from the ordinary just get more mixed reactions than the normal.

It's sad that the photographer went through all that, while he had pure intentions of giving the images as a gift, while at the same time he did excellent work, but missed the required 3%.

Let me share an experience where it was necessary to say NO.

My sister got married last year and they asked me to shoot their wedding.

As a professional photographer, i said no (even if they offered to pay for my services) and asked them to hire another photographer for that.

Although I agreed to shoot her prenup here and abroad for free- gave her a prenup album and hi-res DVDs of all the images. I just had to say NO for the wedding day.

While i had little role in the wedding, being a direct family member can be problematic at times, and unforeseen events can happen and did happen - my 1 year old daughter got sick halfway through the ceremony that we (including my wife and other son) had to rush back to the hotel right after we had our family photo taken, to give the baby her needed medical attention. I missed the dinner reception, but managed to show up in the last part just to give my wedding message on camera, and take a few shots the hired photographers didn't take, then again left in a hurry to bring the doctor to our hotel.

Can you just imagine the trouble if i said yes?

Excellent example dude...

this thread made me more worried than I already am. a friend recently asked me to photograph their wedding and i was too shy to say no. they just find hiring a photographer too expensive thats why they asked me to shoot at their wedding. he says he doesnt mind that im not experienced he just want someone to shoot at their wedding. but still me thinks its not a good idea. i dunno know really what to say!

If you are confident with your skills, then why not? Maybe I wasn't that confident that I insist my bro to hire a pro. It's really hard to say No most of the times, but with right reasons and polite explanations, they'll begin to realize that they don't wanna ruin their event anyway. Give them the hint and you'll be fine.:)

this is sad :(well, an american actor once said, "There just isn't any pleasing some people. The trick is to stop trying." :)

i think there's a difference between volunteering and being asked to do the job. watcha think?:)

It's sad that the photographer went through all that, while he had pure intentions of giving the images as a gift, while at the same time he did excellent work, but missed the required 3%.

Let me share an experience where it was necessary to say NO.

My sister got married last year and they asked me to shoot their wedding.

As a professional photographer, i said no (even if they offered to pay for my services) and asked them to hire another photographer for that.

Although I agreed to shoot her prenup here and abroad for free- gave her a prenup album and hi-res DVDs of all the images. I just had to say NO for the wedding day.

While i had little role in the wedding, being a direct family member can be problematic at times, and unforeseen events can happen and did happen - my 1 year old daughter got sick halfway through the ceremony that we (including my wife and other son) had to rush back to the hotel right after we had our family photo taken, to give the baby her needed medical attention. I missed the dinner reception, but managed to show up in the last part just to give my wedding message on camera, and take a few shots the hired photographers didn't take, then again left in a hurry to bring the doctor to our hotel.

Can you just imagine the trouble if i said yes?

Thanks for sharing, I never thought about this scenario.....

Free is Killing Me!
Matt Brown says too many people are giving away photographs for free or dirt-cheap.

By Matt Brown

http://www.sportsshooter.com/news/1989

yikes. sadly, you will never run out of people who will give out their photos for free just so they can get photo credit. Thus, a lot of companies just want to get them instead of paying for quality work.

Man, I feel bad for the pro's who did bust their asses just to get to where they are. Only to be faced with things like these.

Asking to get photos/images without paying is a recent phenomenon - we started photography in the 1970's and except for family and friends, everyone expected to pay to get photos. Maybe because it's now digital and people think that we don't need to spend on films and processing anymore. They seem to forget that instead of films, we have to buy memory cards, and instead of taking films to the labs, we have to buy a computer so we can process our shots. And instead of being able to keep a film camera for years and years before a new model comes along, our digital cameras are considered "passe" after about a year. Plus, instead of having a good night's sleep, we sit in front of our computers processing and editing our images all night long.

But before we blame others, I think we should catch ourselves telling clients when we say yes to doing all sorts of variations and additional set ups that were not part of the original cost estimate - "Don't worry, it's digital - we can shoot as much as you like. No more films. No more Polaroids."

Why do we wonder why clients think they can get their photography for free? There are many photographers who offer their services for free because they have the mistaken notion that they don't have any additional direct costs. No more films.

I have encountered so much of these types. How can we blame people who simply love to take excellent photos and give them away for free? Chances are, it's not their bread & butter... or they simply enjoy the process of capturing and creating the images and do not place much value on the actual costs involved. And it doesn't necessarily mean that they create sub-standard images for they have the necessary skills and top-end photography equipment.

Where do we draw the demarcation line? How can professional photographers who make use of their talents and resources to earn a living compete with such kind of people?

I have encountered so much of these types. How can we blame people who simply love to take excellent photos and give them away for free? Chances are, it's not their bread & butter... or they simply enjoy the process of capturing and creating the images and do not place much value on the actual costs involved. And it doesn't necessarily mean that they create sub-standard images for they have the necessary skills and top-end photography equipment.

professional photographers should avoid competing against this photographer or you will surely die.

@ Harvey Chua
Asking to get photos/images without paying is a recent phenomenon

professional photographers should avoid catering to this client/customer, for sure you will not be paid.

Giving FREE of your service is one of the nicest way for Marketing and its one of the good move for the beginner.

I use to do that before when I started doing web design. But since I started in the studio as a Back-up Photographer I only give Free for my friends and relatives.

I don't know but for me it's work. It's just a matter of time and sacrifice.

Just sharing my lazy thoughts!!!

:Grin::Grin::Grin:

On second thought, I do free photo services as well... but, it's a way to secure a much bigger paid project.

For example, in a particular school I give free photo coverage for the birthday party of the school principal. But in return, I have secured a yearly contract for doing school photography. At one time, I also did a free wedding coverage for the daughter of a company CEO, but in return I have secured a much rewarding corporate photo project.

Is this considered unethical in terms of business practice?
(I mean giving freebies in exchange for bigger earnings.)

Is this considered unethical in terms of business practice?
(I mean giving freebies in exchange for bigger earnings.)

This is not isolated to photography only. Even in the IT industry, there are big companies offering their services for free so that they can have exposure on that client. For sure, this investment would have bigger return in the future.

I am not sure if this is a bad thing for photography in general or just for the professional photographers. What if this new photographer intentionally offers his/her services for free but would good enough results that can rival some professional photographers? Is this practice detrimental just for the business side of photography. I am sure the best and brightest photographers won't be affected by this one though.

Who can resist something that's free. Sometimes, companies don't really need the best of the best. There's a saying in the software programming world that we must not strive to create the perfect system. Creating the perfect system would take a very long time such that it's too old before you create one. In addition, we can't distinguish a perfect system and a near-perfect system anyways. In relation to this one, some companies are already ok with a near perfect results. There are hundreds of amateur (in the sense that they don't earn from photography) photographers here that produces very good results - almost professional results. Is it a blight in the industry if these photographers gives their stuff for free just for exposure?

Just giving my $0.02 as a hobbyist.

Businesswise, you can't compete with a hobbyist! :)

With the prolifiration of wealthy photography enthusiast who are really good at expressing their artistic side with their sleek and costly gears and home studios that can rival that of the biggest pro studio out there, every photography business outfit out there is at the risk of being annihilated if these enthusiasts will redefine the photography world by their generosity.

Is this bad? Not so in my opinion.

At the end of the day, we just have to live with the fact that the rules of the game has changed. As I have said in another thread, adapt or perish. resistance is futile.

Free is a killer indeed. But we all have to accept it. This medium of art is evolving and we all have to evolve with it as well.

If you think you are affected then I think its about time you find another approach to get ahead of everybody.

Each have their own opinion and I respect them all. But we need to be firm and learn to respect the hard earned labor of other photojournalists and photographers out there. Stop cutting each others throat.

Thanks for posting the link. a very informative read. Matt Brown is actually a friend of mine. We shot several NCAA events back in the 1990's and I am a big fan of all his work and his contributions to Sports shooter.

The sad reality, especially here in the US is that the economy is sinking and its trickling down to all aspects of business, in general, life as a whole.

I don't believe in freebie work at a commercial level, nor do I ascribe to undercutting your peers. free photo's for family and friends that are strictly for personal use isn't the problem, because I am sure your family and friends are compensating you somehow, favors, dinners, a round of beers, etc.

Before, Photography had such a steep learning curve, wherein specialists remained so because not everyone can do their craft. These days, Digital has made the curve fall flat, and those with a good eye can replicate fairly decent work that people/clients are willing to settle with.

Its forcing working pros to think outside the box and offer a product that is unique to them, and a signature of their work. It's a tough industry, made even more difficult by the one's willing to do it for free. Pro's have to evolve and offer a product that no one else can achieve simply to maintain steady work.

when it comes to editorial submissions, whether it be for newspaper dailies or magazines, often times you simply go with their rates. (US rates are a stark difference than Philippine rates) It seems the commercial/ad photography is getting gouged at the most and its there where we have to make ourselves more unique.

I'll champion the working pro, esp. the veterans out there that guided me along the way. these days its becoming a circus, however you get what you pay for...

Here is another link that may interest you to read, http://www.sportsshooter.com/news/2009.

I must admit, I have never asked payment for a photog service. Am I killing your business? I dont think so. Why? In the first place, the friends that I dole out my service to did not even know you're in the business. I did not steal deals from other photogs. I dont hunt for photog deals that fellow professional photographers have honed. My friends came to me and I did them a favor, just like whatever else you do to your friends for free.

I invest on gears I must admit. But I do so because I enjoy spending on them, just like a deadly vise of drunkards and gamblers. I dont ever think of recovering the investment. It's like finding something that you really enjoy doing and you can afford to spend a fortune just to get the most of it.

Just a couple of nights back, I met this girl whom I now like. She texted earlier today that she wanted some shots taken and asked me how much I charge. Can you blame me if I asked only for a coffee with her? Did that friendly gesture killed your business?

I'm well aware that some people shoot for a living. Well, I don't. I shoot because I enjoy shooting. I'm probably fortunate that I get can manage to get resources from other means. I work on it half of my time. The other half, I do photography. Can you blame me if I dont expect compensation for splurging into my obsession?

It's me thinking out loud. I dont mean to be offensive or start a heated argument.

Cheers!

It probably doesnt apply to everyone. I had made some ways to keep the business up and running. I travel and do workshops and teach both the hobbyists and professionals alike. I am not really bothered by GWC's and hobbyists. Each and everyone would have an authentic shooting style and that style will either bring you to the top or leave you down the drain. But then again the professionals will have to find another way to make money from photography.

It probably doesnt apply to everyone. I had made some ways to keep the business up and running. I travel and do workshops and teach both the hobbyists and professionals alike. I am not really bothered by GWC's and hobbyists. Each and everyone would have an authentic shooting style and that style will either bring you to the top or leave you down the drain. But then again the professionals will have to find another way to make money from photography.

+1

Those that make a big deal out of this IMHO are probably making a lame excuse to differentiate and specialize. If you're already made in photog, this means nothing to you. Threats are ever present in any business. Im a businessman myself. You cant just sit down and be complacent, hoping that the threats go away. You find your niche and differentiate your product or service if needed.

Cheers!

We ain't see nothing yet. Wait till technology brings us below the P20K mark. Ah, I see more and more people becoming emotional about photography as a business.

Each have their own opinion and I respect them all. But we need to be firm and learn to respect the hard earned labor of other photojournalists and photographers out there. Stop cutting each others throat.

in the real world, how many do you believe will 'stop cutting each throat' ?

Free is a bummer if you are on the giving end especially if it does concern your loss of income but if you are on the receiving end, I wonder if you could still feel the same especially with everything in this country where everything are already expensive.

In this digital age, even my grandma can grab a digital camera and offer services. Offering a free service is a marketing strategy for me. I only need to make sure my 'free' service is better than my grandma's. So then I can build a portfolio. And probably, friends of the clients you serviced for free may contact you for future paid services. Just exactly what happened to me. :D

We ain't see nothing yet. Wait till technology brings us below the P20K mark. Ah, I see more and more people becoming emotional about photography as a business.

that's the normal market trend business people have to contend with constantly. only those that have stomach and resources for such a battle survive. this doesnt happen remotely to photography. you can see it everywhere.

cheers!

that's the normal market trend business people have to contend with constantly. only those that have stomach and resources for such a battle survive. this doesnt happen remotely to photography. you can see it everywhere.

cheers!

Right!

The really great ones will survive. The average ones will fall. That is how I think the industry will correct itself.

i agree..its like investing first..then grab your profit at the end...

For some of us, it's investing on a hobby and reaping enjoyment and pleasure, without any expectations of profits.

Cheers!

For some of us, it's investing on a hobby and reaping enjoyment and pleasure, without any expectations of profits.

Cheers!

not only that, some of these guys even go as far as shelling out money from their own pockets to get the excitement and pleasure they seek out of photography.

unintentionally though these kinds of photogs sometimes creep within the pros' spaces and partly if not fully eat their meals too. that is the unfortunate part. But what is the remedy for this? none in my opinion. hobbyists can't go snapping shots all the time. Eventually, they get fed up and they would want to increase the level of challenges they encounter. nothing more rewarding when you can try to exceed what the pros and the popular ones are doing.

i respect all your ideas and opinions, however there are some variance between a photographer and a photojournalist's job.

not only that, some of these guys even go as far as shelling out money from their own pockets to get the excitement and pleasure they seek out of photography.

unintentionally though these kinds of photogs sometimes creep within the pros' spaces and partly if not fully eat their meals too. that is the unfortunate part. But what is the remedy for this? none in my opinion. hobbyists can't go snapping shots all the time. Eventually, they get fed up and they would want to increase the level of challenges they encounter. nothing more rewarding when you can try to exceed what the pros and the popular ones are doing.

nicely said! I agree. Hobbyists dont get the same pressure as the paid pros have.

:)

http://web.mac.com/aaronandpatty/What_the_Duck/Comic_Strips/Entries/2008/6/18_WTD_501_files/WTD501.gif

Simply put...week end warriors/photographers are different from the real pros/photojournalist who makes their living from their gears.

there are many hobbyist who are very capable of producing good photos, however they do not rely solely on producing good hard earned money from selling their photographs.

on average, it pays $100-150 per published photo on newspapers and agencies when you are working on "spec". on top of that you have to pay part of your expenses on gasoline, and everyone knows the price of gas has gone up.

in the U.S. it is even worst as they are really hurting very bad. Lay-offs and buy-outs are prevalent. In Canada, it is almost as bad but still not quite as the U.S. situation.

I am talking real stuff here where you really have to work your butt off to earn a living.

Simply put...week end warriors/photographers are different from the real pros/photojournalist who makes their living from their gears.

there are many hobbyist who are very capable of producing good photos, however they do not rely solely on producing good hard earned money from selling their photographs.

on average, it pays $100-150 per published photo on newspapers and agencies when you are working on "spec". on top of that you have to pay part of your expenses on gasoline, and everyone knows the price of gas has gone up.

in the U.S. it is even worst as they are really hurting very bad. Lay-offs and buy-outs are prevalent. In Canada, it is almost as bad but still not quite as the U.S. situation.

I am talking real stuff here where you really have to work your butt off to earn a living.

So true. I guess, people should accept the fact that photography for a living or doing it as a business, especially if done full time, is quite risky given the new situation. One has to be creative and innovative to stay ahead of the pack. It has become too affordable already.

Compound it with the fact that each of us has hidden passion for photography that is so easy now to show in the open. A friend who has joined us in one shooting event suddenly shared about his desire to start with photography since he was young. It's only now that he got the chance to let go of it cos the gadgets have become very affordable, learnings have become readily available, and there are just too many clubs to join.

Photography as a hobby is contagious.

Simply put...week end warriors/photographers are different from the real pros/photojournalist who makes their living from their gears.

there are many hobbyist who are very capable of producing good photos, however they do not rely solely on producing good hard earned money from selling their photographs.

on average, it pays $100-150 per published photo on newspapers and agencies when you are working on "spec". on top of that you have to pay part of your expenses on gasoline, and everyone knows the price of gas has gone up.

in the U.S. it is even worst as they are really hurting very bad. Lay-offs and buy-outs are prevalent. In Canada, it is almost as bad but still not quite as the U.S. situation.

I am talking real stuff here where you really have to work your butt off to earn a living.

I agree. I feel it! :BlackEye:

After having gone through this thread, the more I am convinced that I should never give up my day job. Going full-time is suicidal.

Photography as a hobby is contagious. Viral indeed.

I don't think its killing the business of photography... Like me I'm just a hobbyist... most of the time I do photography for free... But I also do paid sports photography... There are still clients out there who are willing to pay for an exclusive photo coverage of whatever event they have.

For me doing photography for free is just a way of advertising myself for potential paying clients.

FREE?!?:Shock: there is no such a thing as free in this world, there is always a price to pay, a trade-off. may not be monetary, could be in kind. may not be now, could be sooner or later. the bottom line is, NOTHING IS FREE...

come to think of it, with the proliferation of new hobbyist each day, more and more people are getting better in photography. In relation, there would be photographers that might sell their photos dirt cheap, some might sell it for free.

with more choices to consider (including the hobbyist), the pros must distinguish themselves against the hobbyist. i know a couple of hobbyist that earn from their craft (but still stick to their normal jobs). The sudden increase of enterprising hobbyist photographers creates competition one way or the other. eg. a couple getting married decided to get their friend as their photographer. probably 20 years ago, this would be really rare but nowadays, it's fairly common.

Average pro photographers have to compete with hobbyist that can produce good results for a very cheap price. it's either the average pros get better or leave the business. It's sort of an evolution for professional photography as well. most of the pros have to improve or else they would be beaten by this industry.

The better pros wouldn't feel any competition given that they have already created a market for themselves. Lito Sy would probably still be fully booked even if the number of enterprising hobbyist doubles or triples.

Thus, as they say, competition is good. without competition, industries don't grow. with a new surge of competition, average pro photographers evolve into something better. there would be better pro photographers out there. Twenty years ago, when it's not really that cheap to do paid photography, the pro photographers monopolizes the industry. They have means to invest on expensive equipment thus hobbyist can't really penetrate the market. Nowadays, with cost of owning one is lower, people can now penetrate the market and create good competition. with competition comes growth.

so, free is not killing me. free, in effect, is giving me better choices. free is evolution's way of improving everyone's craft.

If I go knocking on anybody's house and ask for $150, will you give it to me? In exchange of the $150, I can give you references and will tell everybody how good of a person you are and that in the future I can offer you some jobs. BUT first you have to give me $150 out of your pocket....how's that work for hobbyist and amateurs giving away works for free?

Maybe one of the reasons we are so worried to charge a client is because we lack confidence in our own work! No charge, no harm done right? It is free anyway, so why would a client complain.

But you are unknowingly hurting yourself and the trade we are in. Check out what happens when the same client gave free work approached you again. Tell him your quoted price this time and observe how he/she will react.

I share the same sentiments, to reflect on this new age phenomenon, if we look at it from the receiving end, Linux is a free Operating System created by hobbyist right, (free vs 14,000 Php Windows Vista Ultimate?) Grey cameras are scott free of taxes, sunlight through the window, most information in the internet, DVD's, software, don't we just really love freebies, or even just super discounted items. "He who has no sin at all cast the first stone"

Allow me to quote toto "adapt or perish, resistance is futile". JPG Magazine adapted to this new age thinking very well, they now make money from all these photographer by publishing a magazine all from freely submitted materials from anyone and everyone. "adapt"...


Businesswise, you can't compete with a hobbyist! :)

With the prolifiration of wealthy photography enthusiast who are really good at expressing their artistic side with their sleek and costly gears and home studios that can rival that of the biggest pro studio out there, every photography business outfit out there is at the risk of being annihilated if these enthusiasts will redefine the photography world by their generosity.

Is this bad? Not so in my opinion.

At the end of the day, we just have to live with the fact that the rules of the game has changed. As I have said in another thread, adapt or perish. resistance is futile.

come to think of it, with the proliferation of new hobbyist each day, more and more people are getting better in photography. In relation, there would be photographers that might sell their photos dirt cheap, some might sell it for free.

with more choices to consider (including the hobbyist), the pros must distinguish themselves against the hobbyist. i know a couple of hobbyist that earn from their craft (but still stick to their normal jobs). The sudden increase of enterprising hobbyist photographers creates competition one way or the other. eg. a couple getting married decided to get their friend as their photographer. probably 20 years ago, this would be really rare but nowadays, it's fairly common.

Average pro photographers have to compete with hobbyist that can produce good results for a very cheap price. it's either the average pros get better or leave the business. It's sort of an evolution for professional photography as well. most of the pros have to improve or else they would be beaten by this industry.

The better pros wouldn't feel any competition given that they have already created a market for themselves. Lito Sy would probably still be fully booked even if the number of enterprising hobbyist doubles or triples.

Thus, as they say, competition is good. without competition, industries don't grow. with a new surge of competition, average pro photographers evolve into something better. there would be better pro photographers out there. Twenty years ago, when it's not really that cheap to do paid photography, the pro photographers monopolizes the industry. They have means to invest on expensive equipment thus hobbyist can't really penetrate the market. Nowadays, with cost of owning one is lower, people can now penetrate the market and create good competition. with competition comes growth.

so, free is not killing me. free, in effect, is giving me better choices. free is evolution's way of improving everyone's craft.

very well said! :)

If I go knocking on anybody's house and ask for $150, will you give it to me? In exchange of the $150, I can give you references and will tell everybody how good of a person you are and that in the future I can offer you some jobs. BUT first you have to give me $150 out of your pocket....how's that work for hobbyist and amateurs giving away works for free?

why would one do this? can you elaborate on this sir?

Maybe one of the reasons we are so worried to charge a client is because we lack confidence in our own work! No charge, no harm done right? It is free anyway, so why would a client complain.

could be. but probably not so for every hobbyist out there. some people just dont charge for they just feel it would do them good "initially". starting small maybe. one shoot at a time.

But you are unknowingly hurting yourself and the trade we are in. Check out what happens when the same client gave free work approached you again. Tell him your quoted price this time and observe how he/she will react.

seems like a really bad strategy for me. you will really get hurt if you dont know what you are doing. by just giving things away for free without knowing the benefits and consequences, one is really doomed to fail. But taking on on your example, I'd probably quip to the client "no no .. since you like my photography, this time will you owe me a dinner." Probably you can talk things out over dinner and explain how things are and you are spending your time for this and this and that. Of course, since I am so generous, at the end of the day, I'd probably ask the waiter the check and see if the client takes the tab. Next time, "mahihiya na yung client na mangabuso". But on my side, I am sure I have done all things to please the client. In the future, you reap what you sow.

Maybe one of the reasons we are so worried to charge a client is because we lack confidence in our own work! No charge, no harm done right? It is free anyway, so why would a client complain.


Probably yes, but I'd like to see it in another way. I wanted to do something very badly that I would pay anyone who could give me an opportunity to do it. Then here comes my friend presenting an opportunity to shoot. He did not ask! I offered to shoot her daughter's birthday party. For me it's already heaven here on earth being presented with an opportunity to shoot. Forgive me but that was how i felt. And I'm sure that some hobbyists share the same ecstasy when presented an opportuniy. It works like an addictive drug.

That might be an exaggerated example, but true. As a hobbyist, you dont care about investment, costs and profits, you only care about shooting. As I see it, I shot my friend's daughter's birthday because of my love for photography and for my friend. Hitting two birds with one stone.




But you are unknowingly hurting yourself and the trade we are in. Check out what happens when the same client gave free work approached you again. Tell him your quoted price this time and observe how he/she will react.

The same friend invited me again for his son's christening (actually, he made me a ninong). He asked how much I charge to cover the event. Sorry to disappoint some of the readers, but yes, I shot the event for free. Can you blame me? I did not steal the deal from anyone. I love to shoot and actually am addicted doing it. And I also love my friend, and now the son, who became my godson.

Am I hurting myself? Never. Cos I never intend to make money with my hobby anyway.

Am I hurting the trade? Maybe yes, maybe not. I did not steal the deal from any photographer. I never go out in the market promoting my free service. If you are in this business, just like in any other industry, you should be tough enough to contend with every market/industry pressure. Cos if not, your business is doomed. Maybe not now, but in the near future. Is it because of the free service I rendered my friend? I dont think so. It's more because you cannot handle your business well.

Cheers!

:)

It's more because you cannot handle your business well.

I am more likely to believe that on any endeavor, business or otherwise, this is the very reason why everyone fails. It is plain and simple.

I guess you just summed it all up very well in one sentence sir. I can see that you are the type of person that if ever you fail in one of your adventures, you still end up smiling. hehe.

I am more likely to believe that on any endeavor, business or otherwise, this is the very reason why everyone fails. It is plain and simple.

I guess you just summed it all up very well in one sentence sir. I can see that you are the type of person that if ever you fail in one of your adventures, you still end up smiling. hehe.

Thanks toto.

Yes, I have my own share of business failures, but it did not stop me from venturing into other opportunities. It's better to have a positive outlook. Hehehe. So I just keep smiling. Hehehe.

:)

reading the conversation between ron and bong, i am starting to come to this conclusion.

i guess bong will be happy to go to hell so as not to miss the opportunity to take pictures (even for free). and the guy that got killed (i hope not ron) because of bong's generosity to give free photo service will just be as happy to go to heaven.

(just making fun of free's killing spree).

Really, no offense to anyone in the forum. We are only exchanging opinions here, but reality bites and when it does it hurts.

There is another thread, http://digitalphotographer.com.ph/forum/showthread.php?t=15158&page=4. It is about Anton Sheker and the MB newspaper.

I called your attention to this subject to illustrate as an example what kind of respect they have on our works. It could happen to anyone and that is true!

But we can gradually change this trend if stop giving away our works for free.

Probably yes, but I'd like to see it in another way. I wanted to do something very badly that I would pay anyone who could give me an opportunity to do it.

...
As a hobbyist, you dont care about investment, costs and profits, you only care about shooting.

...

I love to shoot and actually am addicted doing it. ...

Am I hurting myself? Never. Cos I never intend to make money with my hobby anyway.



Cheers!

:)

I am reading a book called "Blue Ocean Strategy" and my mind is getting titillated trying to think of a business that would cater to photo enthusiasts who want to shoot for free. It appears from reading this thread that this is a huge, untapped market right here. :)

Great idea Harvey! Maybe by channeling the hobbyist desire and hunger to his passion into this new idea of yours...you will be able to up the standards of practice in the Philippines.

They can start shooting for free and get recognition...can't go wrong with that!

..... It appears from reading this thread that this is a huge, untapped market right here. :)

:) There you go! An authentic breed of businessperson. Identifying business opportunity as it presents itself! :)

It is not the strongest or most intelligent species that will survive but the one that can best adapt to change.

~ Charles Darwin

That pretty much sums it up for me. :)

I am reading a book called "Blue Ocean Strategy" and my mind is getting titillated trying to think of a business that would cater to photo enthusiasts who want to shoot for free. It appears from reading this thread that this is a huge, untapped market right here. :)

a sort of photo enthusiast agency perhaps? handing out various assignments to different photography enthusiast.

Two photographers (1 more experience and the other less experience) would be assigned to each assignment and the client would only pay for the travel/food/accommodation expenses and a small fee for the trouble of the agency.

although the idea is good, at least to some extent it will eat up a significant part of the market particularly the lower end one. leaving the professionals with a much smaller pie than they already have.

I think the internet also has a big part in this - it's so easy to find a free or cheap photographer by searching in places like craigslist.com

If you are a full time photographer there's not much you can do besides making sure you're much much better than the free/cheap part timer. We can also educate our clients on all the reasons why they should hire a pro.

when you are good at something, dont do it for free. :D

when you are good at something, dont do it for free. :D

hehehe. the problem here is that there are already thousands of good photographers out there. either you belong to them, or you are one of the best.

for me, it should be like, "if you are exceptionally good at doing something, DONT do it for FREE, you should instead charge one his arm, and his leg too if you are that sensitive to your bottomline." :Grin: however, the problem nowadays is that, those exceptionally good photogs are now being challenged by newcomers in this field. it is beginning to crowd up there. :Scared:

You have to find your own niche market in the business in this age. Sometimes you have to create a new one for yourself.

Everyone can cook at home, yet people still go out and eat at restaurants. And thousands of restaurants cater to every taste and whim. Some last longer than others, but no restaurants can be too worried of others undercutting them on price alone. They have to pick a market and cater to it.

Like any business, competition is coming from everywhere, sometimes even from abroad. Professional photographers need to learn do to business not just take photos. Offer something unique, a different marketing, and extra service, add extra value, develop a specialty and become known for it.

http://shimworld.wordpress.com/2006/11/03/pro-for-nothing-and-insults-for-free/

Hi fellas, greetings from Shimworld :)

I see the very post that started SHIMWORLD blog is very much alive and the link has since gone on a world tour and actually visited more countries than my bank account would have otherwise allowed me! Don't let my personal account of that wedding event put anyone of you off trying (especially if you're looking to build a portfolio).

However, the decision to post a tell-all story changed my life completely even if it meant cutting off ties with my relatives. With so much pent-up anger, I launched Shimworld blog and 2 years on, 288 posts and 328,000 hits later, Nov 3 2006 represented a significant turning point.

Hi fellas, greetings from Shimworld :)

I see the very post that started SHIMWORLD blog is very much alive and the link has since gone on a world tour and actually visited more countries than my bank account would have otherwise allowed me! Don't let my personal account of that wedding event put anyone of you off trying (especially if you're looking to build a portfolio).

However, the decision to post a tell-all story changed my life completely even if it meant cutting off ties with my relatives. With so much pent-up anger, I launched Shimworld blog and 2 years on, 288 posts and 328,000 hits later, Nov 3 2006 represented a significant turning point.

My first time to encounter this thread (circa Feb 2008 at that).

Jan, thanks for sharing your experience. It means that I am not alone.

I had the same run-in just this past Friday, Nov 14, when I was asked to do a photoshoot for free with my colleagues (VP and up). The photo was to be used for a corporate website. I won't share the details here, but suffice it to say that I was treated like a mere street photographer looking for a buck.

It was humiliating, but I thought that it was best to don the ragged vest of humility than to rant about the experience.

Jan, welcome to DPP!!!!!!!!

My first time to encounter this thread (circa Feb 2008 at that).

Jan, thanks for sharing your experience. It means that I am not alone.

I had the same run-in just this past Friday, Nov 14, when I was asked to do a photoshoot for free with my colleagues (VP and up). The photo was to be used for a corporate website. I won't share the details here, but suffice it to say that I was treated like a mere street photographer looking for a buck.

It was humiliating, but I thought that it was best to don the ragged vest of humility than to rant about the experience.

Jan, welcome to DPP!!!!!!!!

Thanks for the warm welcome, DPP Guru :)

I have a philosophy when it comes airing grievances: stick to relatives (blood or otherwise, keep it in the family, so to speak ;) and leave friends, customers, employers and spouse out of this. Period.

With initial bitterness comes eventual bliss http://shimworld.wordpress.com/weddings/

Thank you for sharing your experience Jan. I will take a note on that. Its not bad to say NO when you have the right reason and good explanation to back-up your big NO.

Thanks for the warm welcome, DPP Guru :)

I have a philosophy when it comes airing grievances: stick to relatives (blood or otherwise, keep it in the family, so to speak ;) and leave friends, customers, employers and spouse out of this. Period.

With initial bitterness comes eventual bliss http://shimworld.wordpress.com/weddings/



Thanks for the link, Jan.

Ping me when you are in Manila.:)

Damn those people are ungrateful bunch. I've been asked to do free work before for my friends but I tell them upfront that they review my work first. I don't want them to be disappointed for not meeting their expectations. But if that scenario would have happened to me, I would have seriously lost it and committed a couple of felony assault.

Thanks for the link, Jan.

Ping me when you are in Manila.:)

Speaking of Manila, I was almost there for the ASEAN 100 FORUM (http://www.asean100forum.com/) event where President Arroyo was the Guest of Honour. The event is run annually by my client Asia Inc Forum for whom I've been official photographer for their Jakarta event in 2006 and Hanoi in 2007 where President Susilo Bambang and Prime Minister Nguyen Tan Dung were GOHs, respectively.

To give you an idea of the event, here's a gallery of the Hanoi one

http://shimworld.wordpress.com/2007/09/07/asean-100-forum-how-different-will-our-future-be/


and while I was in Hanoi, I didn't miss the opportunity to check out the "Streets of Hanoi"

http://shimworld.wordpress.com/2007/09/03/streets-of-hanoi/


Enjoy !

I just shoot a friend’s wedding last week, I was so worried about the same situation will happen to me, I’m not a pro and this is actually my first time to shoot a wedding .. It’s really hard to say NO for a friend specially if they are out of budget, I cover the event from the start till the end.

When I presented the pictures you can see the smile in their faces they are very satisfied with the result.
If ill compare my pictures from other photographers, I may say I have the worst one, but still I make them happy..you can check my multiply account for sample shoots.
This simple means it depend on something, it could be the persons expectation, money etc..
example my brother will have his wedding early next year in Singapore and he ask me to take the photograph, at this early point I already said NO NO.. My reason, I'm just a piece of shit in this field to capture that momentous occasion and I know they are expecting a lot of great pictures and lastly they have the money to hire a professional photographer.
just my 2 cents........

If your relative have a budget for photography why do it for free? charge them and explain them that you will need Pro equipment, man power like lights man and back up photogs and etc.... tell them that this the way i work, I am PRO

Speaking of Manila, I was almost there...

As we say it here, SAYANG (eng: that's too bad). Well, there's always a next time.

Hanoi... Hmmm... I hope to go there one of these days...

It was nice viewing the links...

Thanks, Jan!!!!

... But if that scenario would have happened to me, I would have seriously lost it and committed a couple of felony assault.


Hehe, sometimes, one values one's gear more than the damage it can do to the the other's countenance.

In my case, it was not the best of feelings, but I think things turned out passable. Somehow, Divine Providence....

a lot has already been discussed about properly pricing your work.

i got across some worthwhile reading. check it out.


1. http://strobist.blogspot.com/2008/12/four-reasons-to-consider-working-for.html

2. http://blog.chasejarvis.com/blog/2008/12/will-work-for-free.html

Nice find... quite a coincidence as I was planning to write a blog about something similar next week. Thanks for sharing.

read that a while ago... im not a pro and doesn't get paid.
so its not shooting for free but shooting a different direction.

"Please, I want to know what you are thinking. Share your ideas in the comments, on your own site, or both."

I did one. :)

i have read this article just before seeing this thread! haha! very nice read indeed... i also reposted this article on my blog as what David told the readers... haha!

May I invite you to read something I wrote on the topic? http://adphoto.com.ph/business/2007/01/16/are-you-being-asked-to-work-for-free/

here's a quote on Chase Jarvis's article:

Let’s take for example a well known musician, someone with broad appeal. Dave Matthews Band is a good example, love em or hate em. I chose him after a quick Google search looking for top grossing music tours. Dave can sell out any stadium. A LOT of people like him.

If he does a benefit concert for free, is he selling out his other artist buddies. Is Justin Timberlake suddenly out of business? No. Can Dave turn around and sell out another stadium the following week? You bet. Has this free concert devalued the music industry? No.

Other things might be devaluing the music industry, but The Dave Matthews band playing a select benefit show for free is not. I’m banking that, for Dave, at the end of the day, he wants to play music and he wants to balance his playing of music with making a nice, sustainable living and working on interesting and worthwhile projects. Period.

Nice read indeed... Thanks for sharing!

quoting Strobist:

If you are a professional, it is the client with the check who determines what you shoot and how you do it.

Maybe you want to shoot conceptual portraiture. But if The Money says that it wants you to shoot little Billy's bar mitzvah, guess who is gonna win in the absence of that conceptual portrait assignment?

A check is a good thing. It puts food on the table and keeps the business running. But that same check can also keep you from growing in the direction in which you want to grow.

The trick is getting from what you are now shooting (and how) to what you want to be shooting (and how). And the fastest way to do that is to forego some money.

From Strobist as quoted by Bart Gomez:

"The trick is getting from what you are now shooting (and how) to what you want to be shooting (and how). And the fastest way to do that is to forego some money."

Could it be that the opposite is true- that the way to go from what you are shooting now (and how) to what you want to be shooting (and how) is to earn, not forego, some money?

:)

i saw this post from my friend/fellow photographer's blog: http://funkyspank.multiply.com/journal/item/303/freebies_schmeebies.?replies_read=8 and reading it really struck a nerve.

Let me know what you think.

"How come a lot of models, photographers, makeup artists, stylists do their work for free?

We all really should learn to value our work and avoid the mentality of "never mind, i'm just starting out anyway, so i can charge cheap!" especially if we have the skill/talent. It kills the industry. It lowers the value of our work. It gives people the impression that our work actually is cheap, when it actually isn't (mine isn't, anyway). These days, with so much cheap talent (or shoule i say, "talent") available all over, people don't hire you because you're good. They hire you because you're cheap. When it comes to quality, sometimes they don't even care.?


Any thoughts?

I only shoot for free if it's for my portfolio, a friend, or family. There are also those rare occasions where shooting for free can net me a bigger job in the long run. Other than that, I make sure to maintain a standard when it comes to pricing. Dropping my rates is not an option because I have daily expenses and a profit margin that I want to maintain.

Beginners do charge cheap because of the lack of experience and the eagerness to just get the job. And I do agree with you that it tends to lower the value of our work as professional photographers. However, this is really their prerogative, and as long as there is no association or chamber that would control industry rates, there will be no way to prevent them from doing so.

Also, it really depends on what clients you are servicing. If you work in advertising and publications, quality will always be the key. Photographers do get hired because they can offer high quality images and professionalized services. Now if there are other photographers bidding for the project, then it boils down to who has the better folio and better prices. In some cases, pricing high won't even matter if you can provide something exceptional to the client. Most advertising agencies would raise an eyebrow and be skeptical of any photographer who wants to get a project just because they offer to shoot it for free or offer absurdly low rates.

Then there's the dark horse who'll show up who's VERY good, and will offer to give their services for free. Those are the ones who stir things up. The only method to deal with that situation is to just do a better job (rather than having them killed right? :D haha i kid i kid).

an update from Chase Jarvis (commercial photohrapher and a winner of Hasselblad recognition award)

http://blog.chasejarvis.com/blog/2009/03/photography-vs-photography-industry.html


The photography industry is really focused on the ‘industry’ part and not so much on the ‘photography’ part. This is the greatest moment in the history of photography if your dream is to distribute as much photography as possible to as many people as possible, or if your goal is to make it as easy as possible to become seen as a photographer. There’s never been a time like this before.

So if your focus is on photography, it’s great. If your focus is on the industry part and the royalties, the lawyers, the magazine features and the print campaigns, it’s horrible. The shift that is happening right now is that the people who insist on keeping the world as it was are going to get more and more frustrated until they lose their jobs. People who want to invent a whole new set of rules, a new paradigm, can’t believe their good fortune and how lucky they are that the people in the industry aren’t noticing an opportunity.

i dont get it? what does that have to do with working for free or not? What does it mean when you say this person won the hasselblad award? that does not give him anymore credibility...

and the original text was on MUSIC not photography....replace photography with music and you understand the context of what was said. The problem that the music industry has been facing is the fact that the internet has evolved into a new channel of distribution. Today having broadband is not uncommon, music files are now easy to transport not like when we were all using 28.8bps modems. The problem is on understanding how to properly price this new medium and how to stop piracy. Not music itself. Music as a supply has been the same....

With photography, the problem is not the medium...even during 28.8 modem days we were already moving pictures around. The problem now is the amout of sudden supply we have in the market....the number of people lugging around DSLRs has increased tremendously. along with it the supply of acceptable and even artistic pictures. It is easy for people to sell their pictures now with the advent of microphotography.....it was never easy to make your own CD and sell it.

The old way of doing business in photography has changed gone are the "i need to hire this guy to shoot this car" scenarios...it is now "lemme see if i can find this car pic for 1 buck". Thats photography. Music's problem now is "how the hell am i going to stop people from copying my digital music from their hard disk to another?" The music industry needs to find a way to price and to protect. The photography industry needs to find a way to combat sunday shooters who sell stuff for 1 dollar.

Please read my sig. :)

Please read my sig. :)

Haha! Thats right sir! although its hard to find work. sir! is there any openings for an event photographer in your team? id like to apply!:):Grin:

Well, just treat it as a regular job... Will you paint someone's house for free? Cook for a resto for free? Drive a cab for a day for free? etc etc...

It's your call.

any thing that you do, do the best, even if it is for free.

"How come a lot of models, photographers, makeup artists, stylists do their work for free?

We all really should learn to value our work and avoid the mentality of "never mind, i'm just starting out anyway, so i can charge cheap!" especially if we have the skill/talent. It kills the industry. It lowers the value of our work. It gives people the impression that our work actually is cheap, when it actually isn't (mine isn't, anyway). These days, with so much cheap talent (or shoule i say, "talent") available all over, people don't hire you because you're good. They hire you because you're cheap. When it comes to quality, sometimes they don't even care.?


Any thoughts?

with the present economic condition there is not a lot of work/job to be done ( not only in photography industry). there has been layoffs all around. so some of those who are still in business lower their price to get some jobs/works. i will not say they are charging cheap. they just know their business (adjusting their price
depending on the supply and demand situation). while those that were layoff or still do not have work/job, work for free (maybe just to get a free lunch or snack) positioning themselves to be in the front line in case there will be some works/jobs opening.

customers/clients are smart, now taking advantage of the present 'buyer's market' conditon. they can canvass and look around for the best talent (who produced quality works) to do their works and haggle for the most 'reasonable price'.

bill clinton once said 'it's the economy stupid'.

quoted from kuya ellis yang:
"you first have to establish a well known name before you demand for your price."

always check on the economy. will it be good to give a price which is not affordable by the clients? atleast for me, it's a no.

"make your way to the top, slowly but surely."

:D

quoted from kuya ellis yang:
"you first have to establish a well known name before you demand for your price."

always check on the economy. will it be good to give a price which is not affordable by the clients? atleast for me, it's a no.

"make your way to the top, slowly but surely."

:D

In a buyers' market, which it is now, the bar is how much the client is willing to pay. Photographers must make sure they keep their eyes and ears open so they can get hints (or direct answers) as to how much that is, so they don't settle for less than what clients are willing to pay.

At the same time, photographers must know how much they are worth. They must compute for their break-even points. When we don't do an unprofitable job, we may have time and energy to look for a profitable one.

Of course, it's always a gamble but it is also about having a positive attitude, flexibility and perseverance. :) Willingness to work hard is a given.

This has been debated heavily. I suggest everyone to revisit this thread. http://digitalphotographer.com.ph/forum/showthread.php?t=15907
else, the debate will start all over again. :Grin:

This has been debated heavily. I suggest everyone to revisit this thread. http://digitalphotographer.com.ph/forum/showthread.php?t=15907
else, the debate will start all over again. :Grin:

yes, that thread was before the 'great recession' (that's what they are calling the present economic crisis). others may have some new ideas/arguments now. so maybe we should continue this discussion.

others may have some new ideas/arguments now. so maybe we should continue this discussion.

I agree on this note.

Still to me, recession or not, "working for free" can be a strategy. It doesnt mean you always have to do it. Those who dont like the idea, pros or newbies, should adapt to the situation as it is really happening out there.

On the otherhand, some people think of the 'recession' as something very unfortunate and unwanted. Some people simply sees it as an opportunity. It is just a matter where one wants to put himself amidst all these. In the end ... it is always the survival of the fittest. Everybody cant be professional photographers. That would be the day I would find things absurd.

The biggest problem in charging cheap or free is the branding that comes with it, you will for a long time be branded as such (cheap or free). Remember the economy will rise slowly and not overnight, so unless you increase as slow as the economy does, you can't suddenly tell the client that you will now charge double since the economy is now better. Once a company gets use to paying X amount for photography, they rarely budget anything higher than this during their budget proposals. So even if the economy is much better and you want to charge higher, they can only pay you how much they have budgeted, if you are not willing to work for that price, it will be easier for them to look for someone who is willing rather than go to their boss and admit they had a mistake with their budgeting.

I have had the misfortune of loosing clients through cheaper photographers, even if the client wasn't happy with the work, they can't get you unless you lower your price since that is all they have budgeted. When I said no, they just went around searching for another cheap photographer.

"Sige next time increase namin ang budget", how many times have you heard this line and how many times has it actually happen? Knowing all too well that cheap or free photography is possible, why pay more when you yourself made them realize photography is actually cheap or free.

To many smart companies, advertising is the key to survival, buyers tend to buy brands they know rather than try new ones in times like this, so photographers should still have some work left during these times.

Ken

The biggest problem in charging cheap or free is the branding that comes with it, you will for a long time be branded as such (cheap or free). Remember the economy will rise slowly and not overnight, so unless you increase as slow as the economy does, you can't suddenly tell the client that you will now charge double since the economy is now better. Once a company gets use to paying X amount for photography, they rarely budget anything higher than this during their budget proposals. So even if the economy is much better and you want to charge higher, they can only pay you how much they have budgeted, if you are not willing to work for that price, it will be easier for them to look for someone who is willing rather than go to their boss and admit they had a mistake with their budgeting.

I have had the misfortune of loosing clients through cheaper photographers, even if the client wasn't happy with the work, they can't get you unless you lower your price since that is all they have budgeted. When I said no, they just went around searching for another cheap photographer.

"Sige next time increase namin ang budget", how many times have you heard this line and how many times has it actually happen? Knowing all too well that cheap or free photography is possible, why pay more when you yourself made them realize photography is actually cheap or free.

To many smart companies, advertising is the key to survival, buyers tend to buy brands they know rather than try new ones in times like this, so photographers should still have some work left during these times.

Ken

somehow I beg to disagree sir. there is nothing wrong charging cheap as long as you increase the volume of transactions coming to you. you are just working harder than others but you are in a position where you gain. and by having the volume, you are actually in the risk of having so many opportunities. this is where your creativity should play when doing pricing. madaming pakulo na puedeng gawin.

well i dunno about you guys who look down on the idea of "free", but there are a lot of good examples where 'free' can actually usher in more opportunities and bring in more money. here is one example:

I guess most if not all of us have gone to hongkong on tour packages. and if ever you went to hongkong... i bet you noticed that some line of photography business out there is FREE! As in literally FREE, FREE and FREE! And not only FREE but they spend money and run the risk of losing it. During your tour, your guide or someone else takes your picture. In most if not all tourist spots (typically whenever there is a line, e.g. ticket booths), you will also see that they will take your pics if you obliged. At the end of the line or the tour, you will be shown your pics printed and nicely framed. in some lines, you will be show your pics on plates, mugs of whatever medium they can get your pics on. It is now up to you if you want the items or not. If you want them you pay them. If you dont like them, you can return it and you will genuinely get an honest smile. No questions asked.

The story never ends there. For the couple of times I've been there, I have witnessed the pinoys would always wonder how in the world such kind of approach could possibly earn some money. And I would say to myself "go figure". I was able to appreciate the business model and strategy. And I would say they wont do it if they are not earning money at all.

Many of us will not be able to comprehend such strategy like a lot of pinoys I have seen in those lines in hongkong. This one is just an example of my arguments that there is nothing wrong about working for free if you make it as part of your business strategy. You dont do it if you dont know a thing. I bet some of us would probably even laugh at how the HK guys are doing their business.

So go figure it out!

toto, i dont think you see the whole strategy as you say....these are what lines in the amusement park? Youve already paid entrance the cost for that shot has been paid for....what you thought was free isnt. The mugs you will buy and the pictures you will buy they are all extra income...

free can be a LOSS LEADER yes...but if youre just giving it for free...guess what....you just lost money.

so ill point you to your own snippet....go figure it out.

But its your business, you can do whatever you think is right....if you think doing it for free will get you more work then do it....no one can tell you if youre completely right or wrong....

Oh and you were saying youd rather have a cheap price and lots of customers versus a high price and less customers? so youd rather do 7 weddings in a week for 10,000 each rather than 1 wedding a week at 70,000?

please think things through before you say stuff like that....so youd rather post process 7,000 pictures (at 1,000 pictures a wedding which is VERY VERY LOW) rather than just 1,000? So youd rather work 7 times a week for more than 10 hours a day rather than 1 day a week at 20 hours the whole week?

sometimes less is more.....i seriously hope you think through your business model before acting on it.

what toto says is that even if you charge cheap, you compensate it in large volume. he's just saying that everyone should work hard rather than charging for an unaffordable price and not getting anything. :D

sir tey, yep we do get that but like i said

would you rather shoot 7 weddings in 1 week for 10k each (volume) or 1 wedding at 70,000 (not volume).

we arent saying you should price yourself out of the market, but you shouldnt give stuff for free either.....

example, people charging 2k for a kiddie party...you think your 2k is all income? can you please compute your depreciation cost on your camera alone (lets say you took 1000 photos for that 4 hour kiddie party)...how about your flash and lens? how about your pamasahe? or gas? how about the electricity you used to post process the pictures? the PC itself?

What we are saying is that you need to know your cost structure and be aware of how your cashflows are generated....people think that by giving stuff for free it makes them more visible and hence more work will come in....how sure are you? What are you doing to make sure you get hired again and this time hired for money....

also be aware of your business model....your activities should all contribute to your business model....how you will gain income....

giving stuff away for free for 1 year with the hopes of getting commissioned later isnt a business model....thats gambling.

toto, i dont think you see the whole strategy as you say....these are what lines in the amusement park? Youve already paid entrance the cost for that shot has been paid for....what you thought was free isnt. The mugs you will buy and the pictures you will buy they are all extra income...

I think you miss the point. The mere fact that they wasted time and money hoping you would buy the item is amazing. Granted you have it paid already, that is throwing away some already earned money. What will they do with those prints that you never bought? resell them? bring them home and paste them on the walls? Is that being done here? no. People will readily criticize you for wastage.

Not only that. You also see ambulant photogs it in public places. like in the sea side areas where star of the stars are located. Guys with cameras criss-crossing and ready to take your pictures and having them printed nearby. You dont have to pay anything to be there. Even in the tour buses. for 50HK$ for the whole day's trip, I dont think the pics and the mugs and all are included in that. There is also that 50HK$ boat ride in the fishing villages. They just print your pics during the 30 min ride. That is like around 350 pesos for the ride.

woah! wait a minute. 10k is far more different than 70k. even i won't agree on that. my point point is to charge cheap but not as cheap that you'll let yourself be damned.

Oh and you were saying youd rather have a cheap price and lots of customers versus a high price and less customers? so youd rather do 7 weddings in a week for 10,000 each rather than 1 wedding a week at 70,000?

please think things through before you say stuff like that....so youd rather post process 7,000 pictures (at 1,000 pictures a wedding which is VERY VERY LOW) rather than just 1,000? So youd rather work 7 times a week for more than 10 hours a day rather than 1 day a week at 20 hours the whole week?

sometimes less is more.....i seriously hope you think through your business model before acting on it.

hmmm. that is the problem. we all wanted easy money for less work. I respect that. who would not want to achieve that? but when you are in a very tight business environment with established ones as competitors and you are just starting out, you can't pick your own clients or even pick your own competitors. You also cant charge a 70k wedding without narrowing your market.

But to compare a 1 x 70k weddings to 7 x 10k weddings a week is absurd and lacks businessmindedness. how about making 3 x 40k weddings a week? which one do you prefer? how about 7 x 25k weddings a week? Surely, in the point of view of those charging 70k per wedding, they are being undercut. But if you analyze, more work for the cheaper 25k/wedding guy but he is actually earning more than the 70k/per wedding guy. And he is expanding his market fast. one thing though is that, he has to sacrifice and do a lot of work if he chooses to be a 25k/wdng guy.

Now, if you are a 70k/wedding guy ... you cant tell your competitors to also peg their rates as yours. that would be absurd. we live in a world now of free market. deal with it.

Its hard to compare other forms of business with photography, creativeness and skilled work can't be produces similar to any manufactured commodity. Our brains needs the rest for it to work properly, if not, your work will be generic and no matter how much price increase you plan in the future will never happen, who is willing to pay more for generics. Doing 2 to 3 shoots in a day is possible but will most likely burn you out, it will also make it a chore thus you find ways to get it done as soon as possible even at the risk of sacrificing quality. Photography needs to be customized per client, but would be difficult if you are not given enough break in between shoots to think about it. What we have learned in business school doesn't always apply to all types of business, my feedback are not from studying in school but in years of being in this business. You can take whatever I said with a grain of salt and do what the books tell you, then maybe your real life experience will tell you I was all wrong, but for know I am sticking to this.

Ken

Here a post I did on a different forum but the thread is similar:

"For as long as newbies keep thinking that doing things for free will get them to the top faster and easier, then guaranteed MERON! Though I do wan't people to ask around how many of those who gave out their services for free actually got to the level they want to........ I am guessing so few, why? Once your name get branded as free or budget photographer then it will be hard to erase that. You will be reccomended based more on your cost than your work. Business in the Philippines in general are anti-quality and more cost oriented, and companies like to instill this on their workers, cut cost, cut cost, cut cost..... Employees are not afraid of getting a low quality supplier for as long as they are the cheapest, because they always have an excuse if they fail and thats " we followed company policy, to get the lowest bidder". For the reason you wonder why many magazines still print such crappy photos, because they got the lowest bidder.

We can use as many analogies out there, construction workers, OJT in hotel and etc. but they don't apply to photography for there is no industry simmilar to it. I can challenge any analogies there is, but it is still not going to help. If someone see's your work and get in touch with you for shooting for them, then they probably saw a potential in your work, and must be willing to pay if they really need your vision for their project, but of course since your name doesn't ring a bell, they will try to act as if its you who will be owing them a favor by using you for a low price or even free. If you don't allow them, and they don't get you or renegotiate, then it wasn't your quality work they were after but any fool who is willing to do it for their budget.

One of the biggest excuse you will hear from those accepting such work is they are doing it for the experience, huh? You don't need to see your name in the magazine for experience, shooting even stray cats and dogs will also give you needed experience on shooting animals, photographing your family will teach you how to do portraits, covering a party of friends will teach you how to cover an event and etc...... Did any of those make money out of your photos?

Charging for your work is not always about the money, it validates that your work is good enough and people are willing to pay for it. If they don't want to pay, then maybe you were the fool they have been looking for (see my statement above)"

...there is nothing wrong charging cheap as long as you increase the volume of transactions coming to you. you are just working harder than others but you are in a position where you gain. and by having the volume, you are actually in the risk of having so many opportunities. this is where your creativity should play when doing pricing. madaming pakulo na puedeng gawin.

if you can make a sensitivity study of your present price structure (if you lower your price by so much, how much increase in volume or income will it generate) you would know how much volume or income you will get.

with the present shrinking market and stiff competitions i cannot see how lowering your price (even by 50%) will increase your income by skip and bounce.

before lowering price one should start in 'sharpening the pencil'. review all cost components and see where cost can be cut that will not hamper the operation so much.

and if there is really a need to lower one's price then an intelligent guess can be made on how much it should be.

before lowering price one should start in 'sharpening the pencil'. review all cost components and see where cost can be cut that will not hamper the operation so much.

and if there is really a need to lower one's price then an intelligent guess can be made on how much it should be.

I agree. It is important for all photographers in the business to review their costs and their breakeven points so they would know which low budgets they can work with, and which they can and should walk away from.

I also agree the we should look at what costs can be cut without sacrificing quality. In all our businesses, there are time and material wasters. We can try to plug where we are bleeding so our resources can be used to do better quality work.

Photographers can and should help clients how to save money by suggesting more efficient ways of doing the shoot, or by pruning down non-essentials from their shot-list. We can offer different packages of services at different price levels.

In our studio, for example, we have trained junior photographers whose works will not be as great or as expensive as our senior photographers, but they satisfy the need of less demanding projects or clients. For clients with more demanding requirements, they can be served by our more senior photographers. It is important not to mix them up.

In these difficult times, we should all run a tight ship. Keep a tight rein on expenses. We should understand that our clients also need to reduce expenses, but photographers should not carry the burden alone. We can help each other.

if you can make a sensitivity study of your present price structure (if you lower your price by so much, how much increase in volume or income will it generate) you would know how much volume or income you will get.

with the present shrinking market and stiff competitions i cannot see how lowering your price (even by 50%) will increase your income by skip and bounce.

before lowering price one should start in 'sharpening the pencil'. review all cost components and see where cost can be cut that will not hamper the operation so much.

and if there is really a need to lower one's price then an intelligent guess can be made on how much it should be.

totally agree and quoting what i had previously said

"What we are saying is that you need to know your cost structure and be aware of how your cashflows are generated....people think that by giving stuff for free it makes them more visible and hence more work will come in....how sure are you? What are you doing to make sure you get hired again and this time hired for money...."

going cheap is not the end all and be all solution even in a competitive market....how many times have you heard that a price war was never a solution, that all players actually got hurt?

Sir toto, please do not take the figures i put down as accurate numbers, they were there to simply show you that doing more work is not tantamount to having a better business....if you shoot seven days a week will you have time to see your family? the numbers were generated to show you that you might be able to come up with a better way of getting 70k. if you see 10kx7 = 70k and 70k x 1 = 70k....you can say why not 2x35k i say sure!! why not! the point is from 1x70, try to see if you can go 2x35k or maybe even 3x23k...dont dive down to 10k each immediately...look at the other factors.

if you can make a sensitivity study of your present price structure (if you lower your price by so much, how much increase in volume or income will it generate) you would know how much volume or income you will get.

with the present shrinking market and stiff competitions i cannot see how lowering your price (even by 50%) will increase your income by skip and bounce.

before lowering price one should start in 'sharpening the pencil'. review all cost components and see where cost can be cut that will not hamper the operation so much.

and if there is really a need to lower one's price then an intelligent guess can be made on how much it should be.

i agree. for as long as you are aware of what you are doing, lowering of prices can be one potent strategy that anyone can pursue. One cannot just lower prices if in the long run he/she gains nothing at all or worse even losing from it.

Bottomline is that, lowering of prices or even working for free can be used as one of your business strategies for as long as you are aware of what you are getting into and you dont end up feeling sorry. The only persons who will feel bad about these are those whom you have undercut. But one should never worry about them coz they are also busy thinking of ways to keep you away from getting too much from eating their pie. The guys to watch out are those that can also undercut you in terms of skills, delivery and prices and can probably do a lot more for less.

It is a competition out there for such a very small market. When there is an abundant supply of photographers, it is but natural for prices to go down. Gone are the days where supply of photographers is scarce.

totally agree and quoting what i had previously said
"What we are saying is that you need to know your cost structure and be aware of how your cashflows are generated....people think that by giving stuff for free it makes them more visible and hence more work will come in....how sure are you? What are you doing to make sure you get hired again and this time hired for money...."

there is no assurance for everybody to be hired again based on price alone. if your prices are low and you work splendidly, you might get the chance again with the same client. still there is no assurance in there even if you are good. same thing with you charging high. you are not assured to be re-hired by the client especially if you charge high and your work sucks on the eyes of the client. regardless of wether you work for free or you charge high, the only thing that can influence the client for doing another project with you is if your output has wowed them positively .. period.

going cheap is not the end all and be all solution even in a competitive market....how many times have you heard that a price war was never a solution, that all players actually got hurt?

sir, i guess no one is saying that price undercutting is an end all and be all solution to grow your photography career or biz. it is one of the tools available that you can use to dynamically grow your career or business. use it wisely, carefully and effectively.

Sir toto, please do not take the figures i put down as accurate numbers, they were there to simply show you that doing more work is not tantamount to having a better business....if you shoot seven days a week will you have time to see your family? the numbers were generated to show you that you might be able to come up with a better way of getting 70k. if you see 10kx7 = 70k and 70k x 1 = 70k....you can say why not 2x35k i say sure!! why not! the point is from 1x70, try to see if you can go 2x35k or maybe even 3x23k...dont dive down to 10k each immediately...look at the other factors.

Sir, still i dont agree. why do you have to peg yourself with limits? if you can do and thrive on seven weddings a week under all circumstances (including spending quality time with the family, etc), you dont have to see it or even compare your case from the point of view of someone who can only only do one wedding a week. your circumstances are quite different. If I am able to do seven, i will undercut a 70k one wedding a week photog and probably offer it to everyone at around half the prices.

The most realistic point of discussion that we can perhaps expand on should probably center on two photogs capable of doing only one wedding a week where one charges 70k and the other charges 35k and all things being almost equal.

we can always agree to disagree hehehehe.....your opinion is as correct as mine....

.....These days, with so much cheap talent (or should i say, "talent") available all over, people don't hire you because you're good. They hire you because you're cheap. When it comes to quality, sometimes they don't even care.?

that is very true.

you are a established/topnotch and expensive photographer. many customers who are now spending frugally will be avoiding you. they now look for newcomer photographer who can take pictures and cheap that will meet their allocated budget for photo expense. http://www.newsobserver.com/business/story/1374185.html

the above is no longer an unusual scene. look at how employers decide who to layoff.

you are old/lots of experience with the company, your salary is high, you are fired.
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=7042634&page=1

that is very true.

you are a established/topnotch and expensive photographer. many customers who are now spending frugally will be avoiding you. they now look for newcomer photographer who can take pictures and cheap that will meet their allocated budget for photo expense. http://www.newsobserver.com/business/story/1374185.html

the above is no longer an unusual scene. look at how employers decide who to layoff.

you are old/lots of experience with the company, your salary is high, you are fired.
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=7042634&page=1

sooooo true. that is why i said in my last post that if all things being equal, whom would you hire, the expensive ones or the less expensive ones? that would be simply no-brainer. So it really gets into the senses when photgraphers are trying to make an impression that photography needs to be elevated back to its golden day status (at least in terms of monetary value). Before, you belong to the elite when you are into photography. Now, almost everyone has it in some form or another. Somehow photography has been commoditized already.

i dont think we have the knowledge to make such claims, unless you belong to that group...please refrain from making broad generalized statements because it will instigate conflict....

sir rudy, it isnt because they are "more expensive" salary wise...you have to know the context of the decision....one, older people have higher medical bills and the company's risk of paying medical expenses is higher because they are older....replacing them with younger less risky people may be a good strategy. second, you have to know the business strategy of the employer, if they were bought out by a company whose strategy is low cost then even if we arent under a financial crisis you will see those expensive people removed...simply because they do not contribute to the company's value chain...

we really just cant generalize guys....one fact remains...you want to use pricing as a strategy....go study your cost structure.....it isnt a good idea to price yourself out of the market and it isnt a good idea to lose money on a project.

i think we shouldnt drag this further....ms harvey already commented and with her experience in the business id pay great attention to what she said. no matter what you read on the internet it isnt as credible as what someone in the business for so many years can say.

besides i can prolly go to the internet and get you pictures of a 3 headed dinosaur seen walking hollywood boulevard.

if you believe going free is a good strategy then good for you....work out your business plan...no one said it wont work, it just has to be in line with your overall strategy.....like i said, your opinion is as correct as mine...the proof is in the pudding....

sir rudy, it isnt because they are "more expensive" salary wise...you have to know the context of the decision....one, older people have higher medical bills and the company's risk of paying medical expenses is higher because they are older....replacing them with younger less risky people may be a good strategy. second, you have to know the business strategy of the employer, if they were bought out by a company whose strategy is low cost then even if we arent under a financial crisis you will see those expensive people removed...simply because they do not contribute to the company's value chain...

higher medical bills makes old people more expensive. then replacing them with younger/not much experience and low salaried employees save the company some money. and that is exactly why old/expensive people were layoff.

pls read this again -

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=7042634&page=1

i dont think we have the knowledge to make such claims, unless you belong to that group...please refrain from making broad generalized statements because it will instigate conflict....

I am not making some generalizations sir. Just my observations coz the reactions of a lot of photographers against those shooting for free or using prices as part of their strategies tell mostly one thing .. that it makes bad business and it is bad for the photography business/industry. I can understand their reactions coz they are the ones actually and negatively affected (particularly those that are into the biz for so long and have been in the golden days). Worst, some are even suggesting that pricing be dictated by an "association" or similar entity. All these suggest to me of a 'protectionism' mindset amidst the open/free and perhaps oversaturated market.

Yes I agree that we can always disagree. But the fact remains that these weekend shooters who are willing to work just as equally good as those popularly known in the industry for much less or even free, as a potential threat to others who are used to and believed that photography can be or need to be expensive so the business stays lucrative.

And soon, if it is not happening right now, people will realize that expensive photography will be a thing of the past. People will realize somebody out there is willing to do something better for less.

...we really just cant generalize guys....one fact remains...you want to use pricing as a strategy....go study your cost structure.....it isnt a good idea to price yourself out of the market and it isnt a good idea to lose money on a project.

i seldom do generalization because i do not want to be narrowed minded. i am analyzing the ideas/opinion that are being posted and then post some of my ideas/opinion that i believe are relevant to the discussion (that's why i have to post the links where i got my ideas).

Shouldn't we get together to find ways to help all photographers - beginners or veterans, expensive or shooting for free, with or without business knowledge? Let us not pit one against the other. I really don't understand why we are arguing this way - we should reserve our energy for facing the challenges of the times.

There are challenges as well as opportunities during crises. Let us look for them. Let us get ready for them. Let us help each other to ensure that we will survive the low part of the cycle and be ready for the up cycle. It's a cycle, folks, so hang in there. Things will get better, unless we destroy ourselves first.

Sorry. I don't mean to "make sermon," but really, these are challenging times - let us not waste time, resources and energy putting each other down. Lets get going in helping each other.

If you like, use this forum instead to suggest ways to help.

There's a fundamental business difference between a weekend hobbyist trying to make money on the side versus doing photography as your bread and butter. One treats it as a paying hobby, while the latter treats it as a business.

As with all businesses, the bottom-line has to be taken seriously, and setting prices are based on many things such as hardware, software, rental, payroll, training, travel, and other overhead expenses.

A hobbyist won't have those overhead as we bought our cameras for personal use primarily, we don't pay rent, have no staff, pay no taxes and government licenses, etc. All those things add up for a pro, but never an issue for most hobbyists.

The problem arises when a client cannot distinguish a professional from a hobbyist, thinking that photography is one and the same regardless of who does it.

Even if talent isn't part of the equation, the uninformed client will only base their decision on pricing as even the most marginally-experienced photographer can impress an uninformed client with photos that they can't comprehend technically (things like sharpness, posterization of prints, blown highlights, etc).

It applies to most businesses, in general. Branding plays a big role in pricing, as you spend more to get your product known to the public, you have to spend on marketing, packaging, etc. If you sell bread, a Bread Talk store will cost more than your neighborhood panaderia, for example. For those who can't distinguish a monay from a bagel, the expensive brand/item will be preposterous.

Now the decision you have to make as a business person would be, how are you marketing your name and services? That's something you have to determine for yourself. If you plan to serve a certain market segment, then you have to plan your overhead and expenses to suit the capacity-to-pay of that target market.

If you never plan to be a pro or don't see yourself as one, all this discussion will be pointless as you'll always feel that you have zero overhead and even a buck earned is a bonus.

The only question there is would be - Are you a running a business or not? If yes, price yourself to AT LEAST cover you overhead cost (which defeats the point of having a business if you don't make a profit).

If you're doing this for fun, for charity, for experience, etc. then you don't have an overhead and doing it for free won't really be an issue as your camera doesn't feed your family.

____________

Going off-tangent a little with the theme park thing. The theme park already allocated their camera and print costs in their overhead, which in turn transfers to your ticket price, that's a planned expense and not some random thing they do for the fun of it.

They use DSLRs with WiFi file transfers and printing low-res photos on bulk ink and bulk papers are not very costly for such a large business and again, the costs for those are accounted for.

The same principle applies to advertisements, not everyone with a TV will see your 30-sec TV ad. The cost for an ad spot is enormous, but that expense is already considered in the business plan and the cost of that ad is already factored in the product they're selling on the shelf.

You charge with decent profit, you get labeled as elitist.

You discuss the cons on charging cheap or free, you are tagged as protecting your own interest.

Well I guess it seems better to be selfish with our experiences rather than be called these things, and let them find out the hard way the mistakes they have commited.

Good luck with working for free!

[quote=Harvey_Chua;597305] There are challenges as well as opportunities during crises. Let us look for them. Let us get ready for them. Let us help each other to ensure that we will survive the low part of the cycle and be ready for the up cycle. It's a cycle, folks, so hang in there. Things will get better, unless we destroy ourselves first.

If you like, use this forum instead to suggest ways to help.[/quote

i guess the main problem now is the consumers fear of uncertainty that caused them to spend frugally.

first let us be realistic that not everybody will survive this crisis as there are many casualties as of now.

one solution that many are doing is to cut their operating expense and if there is a need to reduce price to meet competition they do so.

a few that do not rely much from their photography business their main income and can sustain its operation even if it lost money for awhile may see this crisis an opportunity to increase their price. lowering their price my damage their reputation irreparably in the long run and may not regain it later when the economy will be much better.

if you are losing money now, better look for something else to do to compensate for the lost income.

i believe many can come up with more better ideas to face the present challenge.

Pardon me if I sound like trying to pit one against each other, but that is actually farther from the truth. I am in fact just trying to be as realistic as possible. We just need to tell the truth that we really do hustle a lot out there and trying to edge out each other when the pie is shrinking, and anything photography becomes almost a commodity. We really dont have to sugar coat the situation and believe that we are a harmonious bunch when for every possible opportunity out there, we try to outdo each other to win the client. Am sure these situations bring out the best in us. And when we are in that situation, our mind works and could possibly think of some brilliant idea never been thought before. And to me that is a good thing.

By showing the other side of the coin, I believe I am also helping. I am helping others perhaps in realizing that we need to go beyond the norms, we need to be unconventional and we need to raise the bar. However, first things first, before we can get to that, we really have to face the painful truth ... that competing is difficult out there and possibly losing is part of the process.

I really can't conform to the notion that we all can win and benefit in the end. To a certain degree, some will really not survive. That is just normal and a fact of life that everyone should accept. No matter how we intend to help each other, we just cant for natural reasons. It is not that we all share projects out there. The fact remains that most if not all, for a project, only one gets hired and the rest gets rejected.

By accepting this reality, it will be much easier for us to compete in a healthy manner. It is also like poker, as players fall, things get bigger and better until only one wins the pot. Then the cycle goes over again. After hundreds and thousands of cycles, there emerge the champion, the good ones from the ordinary. It is up for the customers whether they want to recognize the champions and the good ones from the ordinary. I am hoping they have the capability to discern which one is ordinary.

These kinds of threads, though we may sound hostile to one another, are helpful to the photography public. In the end, they are the ones to decide as to which of the opinions presented would fit in their scenarios and probably help them.

The problem arises when a client cannot distinguish a professional from a hobbyist, thinking that photography is one and the same regardless of who does it.

Very well said. That is another reality we have to be aware of. Most customers have an untrained eye. Only photogs have the capability to probably distinguish that. But even that remains doubtful. Perhaps only a few can :)

So instead of trying to convince our co-competitors to do what we also do (business strategy wise), let us educate the customers and arm them so they at least be able to differentiate which ones are pros and which ones are hobbyists. Market education could be one of the keys in making things better for everyone.

Very well said. That is another reality we have to be aware of. Most customers have an untrained eye. Only photogs have the capability to probably distinguish that. But even that remains doubtful. Perhaps only a few can :)

So instead of trying to convince our co-competitors to do what we also do (business strategy wise), let us educate the customers and arm them so they at least be able to differentiate which ones are pros and which ones are hobbyists. Market education could be one of the keys in making things better for everyone.

I agree, and sharing what we know with our clients should be part of the service of every photographer. We should point out our competitive advantage - why our work is better, why working with us will save them not just money but also time and aggravation.

I still believe that photographers can help each other, even while we compete against each other.

I also agree with you, Toto, that some will make it and some won't, but if we can help more people to make it, wouldn't that be better?

There are many issues involved, and we can help clarify them for everyone. We shouldn't compete only on the basis of price - there are many ways that photographers can sell themselves.

I remember in the 90's when John told me that many photographers already have good equipment, they are experts at photography, they serve their clients well. In short, we were losing our competitive edge. So, I asked, how then do we compete? He told me - if everything is equal, then the photographer who can deliver faster will get the job. For us, that meant at that time, investing in our own Ektachrome processors so we could submit transparencies not 3 or 4 days later but the same day, or at least the following day. We emphasized this advantage to our clients.

Every so often, we check ourselves against our competitors and we try to offer something that they don't. I am willing to share what these have been through the years if it would help inspire other photographers.

At this time, we are trying to compete by emphasizing the benefits of our high end equipment, expertise, bigger facilities, if we are targeting high end clients. If we are approaching clients on the lower end of the price spectrum, we emphasize that our young photographers have access not only to equipment and facilities but also to advise and supervision of the master photographers.

I am willing to conduct a class for 10 people - free (it's my practice for the time when I will teach at St. Benilde) on how to define their competitive advantage. The expert photographers probably won't need this class, so I am offering it to the newbies.:)

Why am I doing this? Photography has been good to us - I am just paying it forward.:)

I am willing to conduct a class for 10 people - free (it's my practice for the time when I will teach at St. Benilde) on how to define their competitive advantage. The expert photographers probably won't need this class, so I am offering it to the newbies.:)

Why am I doing this? Photography has been good to us - I am just paying it forward.:)

Hi Ms. harvey! are you teaching in benilde right now? im studying there now could i be one of your students for this? i would definitely need these tips especially im starting out in the industry.

I am willing to conduct a class for 10 people - free (it's my practice for the time when I will teach at St. Benilde) on how to define their competitive advantage. The expert photographers probably won't need this class, so I am offering it to the newbies.:)

Why am I doing this? Photography has been good to us - I am just paying it forward.:)

I'm a newbie here. :Grin:

Hi Ms. harvey! are you teaching in benilde right now? im studying there now could i be one of your students for this? i would definitely need these tips especially im starting out in the industry.

I think I might be teaching next term. I still have to submit my requirements.

Actually, I wasn't finished writing earlier but John was calling me to have dinner.

To continue... Let's have a list of 10 people for this class. Would Saturday afternoon be a good time? At our studio so I don't have to carry an LCD projector to another venue? I never believed in a blackboard or teacher-centered kind of teaching, so I would like this to be a participatory class, so bring your ideas as well. Let us learn from each other.

Maybe the topic can be "Work for Free?" so we are in keeping with the topic of this thread. Be prepared to present your own reasons for or against working for free. When does it work and when does it not? Also, when you're a part-time photographer, or a hobbyist just picking up a job or two on weekends, is it really true that you don't have costs or almost zero costs? Think of different ways to compete.

Even if the discussions are lively and animated, I hope it will not cause any animosities. It should be for fun, and for learning. :) At the end of the class, we don't have to reach an agreement, but I hope everyone goes home with something learned, gained and our perspectives widened.:)

P.S. I am thinking that it might be livelier if we had in this class a couple or more of non-newbies (expert, experienced, veteran, older - whatever you call yourselves. ;). Maybe half-half?

Please sign up by cutting and pasting names (or quoting the list).
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Please sign up by cutting and pasting names (or quoting the list).
1. Dean Ang - newbie :D (I'm still tentative on this, depends on how my grades this finals week will turn out. :Scared:)
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Please sign up by cutting and pasting names (or quoting the list).
1. Dean Ang - newbie http://www.digitalphotographer.com.ph/forum/images/smilies/Drogar-Laugh%28DBG%29.gif (I'm still tentative on this, depends on how my grades this finals week will turn out. http://www.digitalphotographer.com.ph/forum/images/smilies/Drogar-Scared%28DBG%29.gif)
2.Abraham Domingo ( i hope its schedules somewhere around 2 or 3rd week of april, 1st half of april is my thesis defense.)
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I agree, and sharing what we know with our clients should be part of the service of every photographer. We should point out our competitive advantage - why our work is better, why working with us will save them not just money but also time and aggravation.
I dunno but this would sound like closing the deal and not educating the client :) We can get biased during this situation as i understand. You wont be presenting the advantages of your competitor in this scenario i guess so I would somehow dismiss this approach as educating the market.
For me educating the market would perhaps be like photographers doing conventions giving out free lectures (not only to photographers but the general public). Conventions can be neutral ground where both pros and hobbyist, and sunday shooters could be given equal exposure. At least, everybody is given equal chances in presenting their cases to potential customers. Photographers can also do image appreciation sessions with non-photogs, etc. I guess having more photoexhibits would help too especially when non-pros are given equal exposure.
Could be a hard thing to do but that is how other industries do it. They just bombard the public (their markets) with info.
DPP should be able to organize things like this in conjunction with cam makers, printers, etc.

I also agree with you, Toto, that some will make it and some won't, but if we can help more people to make it, wouldn't that be better?
If by helping means i'll be helping my competitor close the deal in his favor, and eventually arm them in edging me out of the industry. That would be a very very very honorable thing to do. But I dunno anyone who is doing that. In some ways, competitors do help each other but there has to be mutual benefit where vested interests are still met by both. That is what I learned so far being a student of entrepreneurship.

I remember in the 90's when John told me that many photographers already have good equipment, they are experts at photography, they serve their clients well. In short, we were losing our competitive edge. So, I asked, how then do we compete? He told me - if everything is equal, then the photographer who can deliver faster will get the job. For us, that meant at that time, investing in our own Ektachrome processors so we could submit transparencies not 3 or 4 days later but the same day, or at least the following day. We emphasized this advantage to our clients.
Every so often, we check ourselves against our competitors and we try to offer something that they don't.
This is exactly everyone should realize. LEVERAGE is the word. When you got leverage, will you give it to your competitor in a form of help? I bet no one would simply do that. I understand that there was also a time that Digiprint engaged themselves in the photography services (events, weddings, parties) and giving rock bottom rates which gave them the leverage no one can beat. I think i have read that somewhere before and I dunno if Digiprint is still doing that. A lot of photogs (hobbyist and sunday shooters) cried foul on that but I dont actually see anything wrong with that Digiprint move. It is pretty normal to maximize on your advantages if you have one, especially in business. So for hobbyist and sunday shooters, they can use price as an advantage to them. So I dont really see why we have to convince them not to take advantage of their unique position.
At this time, we are trying to compete by emphasizing the benefits of our high end equipment, expertise, bigger facilities, if we are targeting high end clients. If we are approaching clients on the lower end of the price spectrum, we emphasize that our young photographers have access not only to equipment and facilities but also to advise and supervision of the master photographers.
You are hard to beat with all the advantages you just mentioned especially if one would compete or target high end clients where you are also a competitor. One could probably even up if one can still provide the same quality you offer, probably at a much lower price point. One may not be as fast as you can provide but price vs speed can be one interesting match up. All things being equal other than speed and price, the client has to pick one based on his circumstances.

Please sign up by cutting and pasting names (or quoting the list).
1. Dean Ang - newbie http://www.digitalphotographer.com.ph/forum/images/smilies/Drogar-Laugh%28DBG%29.gif (I'm still tentative on this, depends on how my grades this finals week will turn out. http://www.digitalphotographer.com.ph/forum/images/smilies/Drogar-Scared%28DBG%29.gif)
2.Abraham Domingo ( i hope its schedules somewhere around 2 or 3rd week of april, 1st half of april is my thesis defense.)
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I forgot to insert that this list is for a free seminar on the question "Work for Free." Schedule to be arranged. Venue: Adphoto.
1. Dean Ang - newbie
2.Abraham Domingo ( i hope its schedules somewhere around 2 or 3rd week of april, 1st half of april is my thesis defense.)
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4.
5.
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When you cut and paste the list, please include the reason for the list. :)

I dunno but this would sound like closing the deal and not educating the client :) We can get biased during this situation as i understand. You wont be presenting the advantages of your competitor in this scenario i guess so I would somehow dismiss this approach as educating the market.
For me educating the market would perhaps be like photographers doing conventions giving out free lectures (not only to photographers but the general public). Conventions can be neutral ground where both pros and hobbyist, and sunday shooters could be given equal exposure. At least, everybody is given equal chances in presenting their cases to potential customers. Photographers can also do image appreciation sessions with non-photogs, etc. I guess having more photoexhibits would help too especially when non-pros are given equal exposure.
Could be a hard thing to do but that is how other industries do it. They just bombard the public (their markets) with info.
DPP should be able to organize things like this in conjunction with cam makers, printers, etc.

If by helping means i'll be helping my competitor close the deal in his favor, and eventually arm them in edging me out of the industry. That would be a very very very honorable thing to do. But I dunno anyone who is doing that. In some ways, competitors do help each other but there has to be mutual benefit where vested interests are still met by both. That is what I learned so far being a student of entrepreneurship.

This is exactly everyone should realize. LEVERAGE is the word. When you got leverage, will you give it to your competitor in a form of help? I bet no one would simply do that. I understand that there was also a time that Digiprint engaged themselves in the photography services (events, weddings, parties) and giving rock bottom rates which gave them the leverage no one can beat. I think i have read that somewhere before and I dunno if Digiprint is still doing that. A lot of photogs (hobbyist and sunday shooters) cried foul on that but I dont actually see anything wrong with that Digiprint move. It is pretty normal to maximize on your advantages if you have one, especially in business. So for hobbyist and sunday shooters, they can use price as an advantage to them. So I dont really see why we have to convince them not to take advantage of their unique position.

You are hard to beat with all the advantages you just mentioned especially if one would compete or target high end clients where you are also a competitor. One could probably even up if one can still provide the same quality you offer, probably at a much lower price point. One may not be as fast as you can provide but price vs speed can be one interesting match up. All things being equal other than speed and price, the client has to pick one based on his circumstances.

Dear Toto,

1. Re seminars/conventions/exhibits: That's a very good suggestion -yes, we can do that, too - offer seminars for our clients or customers. Those of us who are members of the Advertising Photographers of the Philippines (ASAP) do this once a year. There is an ASAP event attended by clients and agency folks and photographers talk on a relevant topic.

Maybe the other events - by Photoworld, DPP etc. - can have at least one talk that is directed at clients/customers on topics like how to choose a wedding photographer, how to work with an advertising photographer, how to cut costs without cutting quality etc.

2. I don't of course go around helping competitors beat me to a project I am bidding for, but I am open to sharing fellow photographers what I know about the business side of photography so that they don't think that offering low prices is the only way to compete. Again I would like to state that I am not against using price as a strategy for getting jobs; I just would like to help them see that there are other strategies and not just price. This is my campaign not just for fellow photographers but even here with our AEs.

I don't want to give the impression that we are always the highest bidders. Of course not! We would not stay in business if we were. We also win some bids because we offered the lowest bid, but we know why we are submitting that bid. We know our costs, and we know how low we can go without losing money on the job. Like I said, we would like to know which low-paying jobs we can accept and which ones we can or should walk away from.

Here's a small example of how pricing can be strategized. My daughter was doing a project that required a lot of archiving. After the initial computing, even she thought that it would cost a lot, and she wanted to give her client a more reasonable proposal. She offered her client two options. A shorter time frame at a higher price, or a more extended time to finish the job at the lower price. She knew that by doing the first option, our archivist would have to be doing this job more than 8 hours a day, and we would have to be paying overtime to get this done in the given short time, but if client opted for the second option, we can avoid paying overtime. He would also have time to archive our regular work and not build up a backlog. The client opted for the second option, cheaper because they were willing to wait.

3. I am not defending high prices or looking down at low prices. Yes, I agree, that low prices can serve as a competitive advantage especially for beginners (we also have junior photographers) , but like you and other photographers on this forum, I am for studying the reasons why we offer the prices that we do, whether high or low.

I am not even against working for free, if that has been identified as a good strategy. (in one of my blogs I shared how photographers can negotiate for other non-cash concessions, if the job really offers no cash). Even "Free" does not have to be a losing proposition. What I am campaigning against is a price not based on strategy or thought, but based on lack of confidence in one's self, or lack of business knowledge or a knee-jerk reaction to the economic crises.

What I know on the business of photography - this is what I am willing to offer because this is what I have learned through the years. I am sure that there are more photographers and studios that are more successful and profitable than ours, or that there are other photographers who are more talented, but all I know is, if anyone wants to go into the business of photography then he has to learn not just photography but also business.

Since there are no schools that teach the business side of photography (until next term when St. Benilde will offer two subjects - the business of photography which I will hopefully teach, and Marketing Photography which a U.S.-based Filipino will teach), I am offering a short, FREE, seminar on the business of photography.

If our fellow photographers want more business knowledge now, they can take up general business courses. This is something I am encouraging even my own daughter to do - enroll in an MBA course. It's not enough that she is trying to follow her dad's footsteps. If she wants to be in the business of photography, she has to learn both photography and business.

I have also in the past invited fellow photographers to read the books we have in our library on creating portfolios and other business topics. Why am I doing this? Am I just helping our competitors get the jobs away from us? No. I am hoping to help other photographers, especially newbies, learn the ropes so they don't price low only because they feel that is their only advantage. I would like them to discover that they have more to offer. Then maybe we can raise not only the profitability of the business of the photography, but also the respectability of photography as a profession.

Cheers. :) Thanks for the many ideas that you share.

Toto,

I honestly can't see where you are coming from and what your directions are. Are you here to educate people about working for free strategy or just for the debate, since you seems to just counter everything or at least most of what other post. In fact I also notice you contradicting yourself in some cases.

You go on saying that you want the field to be leveled, thus those on top giving away their edge, and all photographers given a chance to present to clients. The edge I am referring to is the hard work we must do to look for clients, why should we bring our clients to those who are too lazy to find them.

Then you mention things like "If by helping means i'll be helping my competitor close the deal in his favor, and eventually arm them in edging me out of the industry. That would be a very very very honorable thing to do. But I dunno anyone who is doing that. In some ways, competitors do help each other but there has to be mutual benefit where vested interests are still met by both. That is what I learned so far being a student of entrepreneurship." Or pretty much against leveling the field to help the competitor.

I would be interrested in seeing you in Havey's seminar so that your are given the chance to expound on your marketing strategy.

By the way, have you tried such strategy yourself in a photography related business? How was it?

Ken

I honestly can't see where you are coming from and what your directions are. Are you here to educate people about working for free strategy or just for the debate, since you seems to just counter everything or at least most of what other post. In fact I also notice you contradicting yourself in some cases.

Hi Ken. My reason why I am trying to engage in these threads is becuase I see that there are "reactions" that question the practice of some photographers that use price as their leverage whether their actions were carefully thought of or they were just plain reckless in doing so. In some instances, some posts give an impression that some people consider it a threat to the industry. And one would usually see posts trying to dissuade people from using price as the focal point in closing a deal.

I am not here to educate people. I am just trying to present one side of the equation. It is up for the readers if they see it as objectionable or reasonable.

You go on saying that you want the field to be leveled, thus those on top giving away their edge, and all photographers given a chance to present to clients. The edge I am referring to is the hard work we must do to look for clients, why should we bring our clients to those who are too lazy to find them.

I dont think I have posted something like this. You must have misunderstood me. The fact is that, the field is not flat for everybody. It is that, that we have our own unique advantages that allows us to level the playing field. in the most recent example i posted, some use price to match with those that can offer speed, likewise, established ones use speed (like the digiprint example) to match up with those that use price cuts against them.

The edge I am referring to is the hard work we must do to look for clients, why should we bring our clients to those who are too lazy to find them.

Sir sorry, pardon me but I dont get this. I am basing my arguments based on an assumption that we all work hard.

Then you mention things like "If by helping means i'll be helping my competitor close the deal in his favor, and eventually arm them in edging me out of the industry. That would be a very very very honorable thing to do. But I dunno anyone who is doing that. In some ways, competitors do help each other but there has to be mutual benefit where vested interests are still met by both. That is what I learned so far being a student of entrepreneurship." Or pretty much against leveling the field to help the competitor.

I was reacting on Sir Harvey's post where 'help' is over emphasized. And that statement above is my way of saying it is but ironic to help our competitors, thus I said I dunno of anybody who is doing that. But I have known competitors to cooperate. They cooperate only when both of their interests are met and both of them end up satisfied. But beyond that, they are always on each other's throat ready to win a deal over the other. Hope I helped clarified my previous statement.

I would be interrested in seeing you in Havey's seminar so that your are given the chance to expound on your marketing strategy.

Are you serious? Cge i would love to do that. I'll present my case on how to win clients from big competitors. Will that be allowed?

By the way, have you tried such strategy yourself in a photography related business? How was it?Ken

I am not in the photography business. But as a hobbyist, I am planning to earn back what I have invested on this very expensive hobby and probably be able to buy more lenses and stuff heheh (just like those thousands of other hobbyist that are in the same position as mine). I know for a fact that this very kind of thinking makes a good thread such as this but hey .. am not alone with this thinking.

I haven't started on this yet as I just enjoy my photography to keep me sane from my other endeavors. However, I have used this very strategy in my other business and I would say that indeed it worked really well. Should I pursue on earning back what I have invested on this hobby, I intend to use this strategy to the max.

if i want to update my portfolio i guess i'd do it for free since i would be paying someone or something just to shoot them as well. normally i get friends & family who are willing to pose for me & places w/o entrance fees so that i can still improve my craft. i always believe that people who liked your work will always refer you to their friends thus having a chain of clients from them. i am flexible w/ my rates w/o sacrificing my work & give my best to whatever i do. photography is a never ending study to hone your skill . . . so keep learning & challenge yourself to something better the next time you press that shutter.

Are you serious? Cge i would love to do that. I'll present my case on how to win clients from big competitors. Will that be allowed?

I am not in the photography business. But as a hobbyist, I am planning to earn back what I have invested on this very expensive hobby and probably be able to buy more lenses and stuff heheh (just like those thousands of other hobbyist that are in the same position as mine). I know for a fact that this very kind of thinking makes a good thread such as this but hey .. am not alone with this thinking.

I haven't started on this yet as I just enjoy my photography to keep me sane from my other endeavors. However, I have used this very strategy in my other business and I would say that indeed it worked really well. Should I pursue on earning back what I have invested on this hobby, I intend to use this strategy to the max.

Its not just about how to win a client, of course by offering free service you get a big chance of bagging the client, but what you are not understanding is, is it going to be income generating or trip trip lang? Of course if its trip trip lang, how can we those that actually make it into a business compete?

I am surpised how you keep insisting that your style is an end-all solution, considering you haven't even dipped your feet wet in this industry. Your so quick to counter those who are actually in the business for quite a long time and not someone who just started when Digital SLR became affordable.

Just like you I also have a degree in Business, but did everything they taught me in the University applicable to a Photography business, sadly no. Just like what Harvey has mentioned, there is no class or school that teaches specific to business in photography.

May I suggest you make yourself your own guinea pig and then maybe, if you have real world experience about your strategy, your words will carry more credibility, cause right now all I see is someone who is in it for argument sake.

Let me say it again similar to show business, that there is no business like photography business.

Ken

sir ken!!

to tell you the truth....only thing i saw in his arguments are motherhood statements...items that you cant really counter...kung baga....walang pusta....

i also have a masteral's degree in business...does that mean i can take you and ms harvey on? LOL!!

/end-sarcasm

To my fellow peeps in this thread :

"When things and thoughts are shared, new horizons are opened. New seeds of thoughts are planted. New issues begin to expose itself. New challenges are presented. New ideas spring. Hence, more opportunities for more people for more money to be made. This is our business."

There is a bigger part in us that needs to be rooted and spread for the next generations to profit, the one effective way this can be done, is by sharing to society what this same society has thought us. We can not allow each other to engage in arguments that divide, but we can all profit when we all work towards determining what the future holds for us and the generations after.

Toto could be the new professional as we all can read. I would listen to his ideals as much as i could because they are easy to do. Easy to accept. Easy to justify. However, his equal Nirvana may not be possible at this time.

However, I would admire, trust and perhaps live Madame Harvey's ideals because it is quite interesting, and fulfilling, to do.

Still, when minds are opened and in the right receptive contexts, these ideals are quite important for all of us.

There is no one way to please everybody.
But SHARING is one way to please oneself.

Work for free and people would appreciate you.
Work for profit and people would appreciate you, still.

How would you rather work then?

No pain can come to those who talk of other people's pain.
But all gains from other people's pains are really just temporary.
It can not last. The only real gain comes with pain.

No need to waive diplomas, visit me, and i can make one for you.

Its not just about how to win a client, of course by offering free service you get a big chance of bagging the client, but what you are not understanding is, is it going to be income generating or trip trip lang? Of course if its trip trip lang, how can we those that actually make it into a business compete?

I am surpised how you keep insisting that your style is an end-all solution, considering you haven't even dipped your feet wet in this industry. Your so quick to counter those who are actually in the business for quite a long time and not someone who just started when Digital SLR became affordable.

Just like you I also have a degree in Business, but did everything they taught me in the University applicable to a Photography business, sadly no. Just like what Harvey has mentioned, there is no class or school that teaches specific to business in photography.

May I suggest you make yourself your own guinea pig and then maybe, if you have real world experience about your strategy, your words will carry more credibility, cause right now all I see is someone who is in it for argument sake.

Let me say it again similar to show business, that there is no business like photography business.

Ken

So are you saying that only those with experience have the monopoly of ideas and have the right to make an opinion? And how come you keep on insisting that my opinions were end-all-be-all solution? Where did you get that conclusion? As far as I am concerned, I am stating an opinion based from my experiences. Perhaps, not directly related to photography. But that is beside the point as this idea isnt even original before I applied it to my business. The idea could have enolved from one industry to another and yet I was able to apply it to my business. There is nothing that suggest that I cannot apply the same strategy if I go into photog biz or if I share about it in a form of an opinion such as in this thread.

Ken, it is really simple. Can you still remember the first time you make your first bid proposal to a client? How much was it compared to your able competitors? Was your bid price the same? or higher? Or was it lower? Was it free?

Again, if one needs to go into the business of photography, I dont find anything wrong if he/she uses price as leverage just to gain an advantage over competitors. So far, only those that are affected seem to be very vocal against the method. So far, those who are affected, or could possibly be affected are attempting to dissuade people from using the method. So far, other than those affected, I haven't heard a client clamoring that it is a step in the wrong direction. How hard can this be to understand?


Let me say it again similar to show business, that there is no business like photography business.

I have heard that one before. Who are you trying to convince into believing that? Unfortunately, one need not fit into the box that you have in mind.

sir ken!!

to tell you the truth....only thing i saw in his arguments are motherhood statements...items that you cant really counter...kung baga....walang pusta....

i also have a masteral's degree in business...does that mean i can take you and ms harvey on? LOL!!

/end-sarcasm

why not? :Grin: you can always try. it doesnt mean you are right or wrong. It only means that you are threshing out an issue that can be argued by anybody. we can't be conformist all the time. We also have to be critical sometimes. It is up to your reader whether he agrees with you or not.

To my fellow peeps in this thread :

"When things and thoughts are shared, new horizons are opened. New seeds of thoughts are planted. New issues begin to expose itself. New challenges are presented. New ideas spring. Hence, more opportunities for more people for more money to be made. This is our business."

There is a bigger part in us that needs to be rooted and spread for the next generations to profit, the one effective way this can be done, is by sharing to society what this same society has thought us. We can not allow each other to engage in arguments that divide, but we can all profit when we all work towards determining what the future holds for us and the generations after.

Toto could be the new professional as we all can read. I would listen to his ideals as much as i could because they are easy to do. Easy to accept. Easy to justify. However, his equal Nirvana may not be possible at this time.

However, I would admire, trust and perhaps live Madame Harvey's ideals because it is quite interesting, and fulfilling, to do.

Still, when minds are opened and in the right receptive contexts, these ideals are quite important for all of us.

There is no one way to please everybody.
But SHARING is one way to please oneself.

Work for free and people would appreciate you.
Work for profit and people would appreciate you, still.

How would you rather work then?

No pain can come to those who talk of other people's pain.
But all gains from other people's pains are really just temporary.
It can not last. The only real gain comes with pain.

No need to waive diplomas, visit me, and i can make one for you.

Thanks sir for this post. It reeks of openness.

Though this thread can't really avoid debating on key issues, I happen to believe that an argument remains an argument if we stop debating on it. I happen to believe that we can always reach a conclusion if you can point out where I could be wrong. That would be the only time that an argument will cease to exist. It will come back again when another one questions the conclusion and the cycle of debate starts all over again. I also happen to believe that we can only benefit from conclusions. This is a healthy process I believe.

HI folks,

This is a great thread. I struggle with some of the statements mentioned against us "newbies" or "cheap". I understand where you are coming from but what should I do?

I am one of those folks that volunteers and work for free. However, I choose the events that I want to volunteer for at my own time and choosing. They have use my pics in brochures both corporate and public. In return, I get credit, feed me until I burst. I get to network with guests and VIPs. I am not treated as a hired photographer but like one of their own. I get the shot list when its done, I take pictures as much as want and stop whenever I want. I am not on the clock.

Most of the time they want to pay me for certain projects which I refer them to my friends who does it professionally since it is not my job, I do it for pleasure. These are reputable foundations backed by big companies.

I want to make it clear that the last thing I want to do is hurt the industry. You know the old saying you get what you paid for. However, these business folks would not sacrifice cost for the reputation of their company. Are my pictures good? The heck I don't know. All I know, is they like my style. And yes I work with the professionals side by side with the same access at events.

I am lucky to have a great job. Even at the office I am the "unofficial photographer". They use my pictures in the corporate newsletter. No extra pay but a t-shirt here, gift certificate to a nice restaurant etc. I get perks. This project could have been easily outsourced to a professional photographer.

In this situation, would you look at me as somebody who is hurting the industry? This is what I like to do and I am very comforable with my abilities.

Every now and then due to luck or timing or connections, I get an invitation to shoot an event. Due to referrals I get invited most of the time and I've turned down a number of them since I know some of this events are more "replacing a professional". I choose the folks whom I trust and people who I know personally.

Currently, I am working on a gig to be part of the Chicago Olympics Marketing committee if we get the call for 2012. It would be an opportunity of a lifetime. I don't care if I take a vacation for two weeks and work like a dog but I will be taking pictures at the opening ceremonies, sporting events etc. All for FREE.

So am I the enemy???


NormT

Norm,

I think you are missing the point and making it sound as if it was against people like you (hobbyist, amatuer that don't make a living out of photography). For one I personaly don't think you are the enemy, just like mentioned in earlier post, an amatuer or hobbyist doesn't have overhead and most of the time in it for the fun of it. You even have a choice of shooting only those you want to shoot, but to some photographers who make it a living, when they are paid they don't really have a choice what to shoot except those the client ask them too. This is why even when the likes of you decide to shoot for free, there is still jobs left for professionals to do.

Now what if you make a living out of photography, would you still offer your services free all the time? How will you make money? This is the question that is being left unanswered. People preaching about shooting for free is possible and still make it a profitable business, but have not shown any proof or even a plan how this will be done. All that is guaranteed when charging free is you will get many jobs and clients, but no guaranteed income.

I think I have said everything I need to say, and extending this just for the argument is no longer worth it. If you think as a professional making photography as your main bread and butter that charging cheap or free will make you your desired income, then so be it, but if you want to know how charging right will keep you in the business far longer, then sign up for Harvey's class and learn how they did it.

Ken

Ken,

No problem here. And yes I will definitely charge if I was doing this for a living. I just wanted to make a point that amateurs/hobbyists like me are not here to hurt our craft.

Unfortunately, some of our photo friends looks to hobbyist as wannabees or a threat to their business.


Respectfully,

NormT

Now what if you make a living out of photography, would you still offer your services free all the time? How will you make money? This is the question that is being left unanswered. People preaching about shooting for free is possible and still make it a profitable business, but have not shown any proof or even a plan how this will be done. All that is guaranteed when charging free is you will get many jobs and clients, but no guaranteed income.

ok. now i get it. I get where the confusion is coming from. the problem with this assertion is that we dont have the same circumstances when we go into photography business or any business whatsoever. some of us will go pro for varied reasons. so why do we need to fit in the same profile like the rest in the business? we just need to accept the fact that not everyone who goes into photog business will be doing it (1) fulltime, (2) or it will be their main bread and butter, (3) or just to be able to sustain the hobby, (4) or perhaps just to augment on daily sustenance, (5) or heck just wanted to piss off another photog outfit. they are all entitled to do their business in whatsoever form. if i choose (3) as the reason, i might not need to be largely profitable. for as long as it will help sustain the hobby, objectives are being met. if I be able to earn more and really be profitable from that, consider me lucky.

now here is the threat. and let the truth be told why others feel threatened. if i choose to go into photography business just to sustain a hobby (which I rightfully entitled to do), will i hurt somebody's business? probably no. will I hurt the industry, no way. but what if for a thousand photogs out there who also thinks like me does the same thing? will this hurt somebody's business? am sure it will to some degree. will this hurt the industry? again to a certain degree, it will have an effect in terms of profitability.


is this a threat or the enemy of the industry? no. in fact the industry help created this trend. i say the industry/photogs simply has to deal with it. this is probably the reason why some of us are preaching against this to occur and I believe this is already happening.

now here is the threat. and let the truth be told why others feel threatened. if i choose to go into photography business just to sustain a hobby (which I rightfully entitled to do), will i hurt somebody's business? probably no. will I hurt the industry, no way. but what if for a thousand photogs out there who also thinks like me does the same thing? will this hurt somebody's business? am sure it will to some degree. will this hurt the industry? again to a certain degree, it will have an effect in terms of profitability.


is this a threat or the enemy of the industry? no. in fact the industry help created this trend. i say the industry/photogs simply has to deal with it. this is probably the reason why some of us are preaching against this to occur and I believe this is already happening.


it seems that a substantial number of photographers and members of the photography industry are now really being hurt with what photographers like you are doing.

they are now appealing to your moral or ethical values to stop what you are doing.

are their demand/appeal/request/preaching valid ?

This is a true story.

Client has a project with a 40K budget. Pro Photog quoted 35K for the service. Newbie Photog quoted 4.5K for the project. Newbie #1 photog got the contract. He still could have gotten the contract even if he quoted 20K but being eager and uninformed (maybe he reads/got some advise to price low to enter the market :D), he quoted really low to make sure he gets the project. The client lowered the budget for the next project to 5K since he can get a photog for that budget anyway. Newbie #1 increased his rate to 8K. He can't get the project now since his cost is already above the budget. Now comes Newbie #2 offering to get the project for free. Guess what's the budget now for the client's next project. Now who's hurt? :D

I so love this thread! Keep 'em coming!

sir rudy, gandang mga tanong na yan! :)

it seems that a substantial number of photographers and members of the photography industry are now really being hurt with what photographers like you are doing.

but the thing is, is it wrong for me to recover my investments and probably earn a little in the process so I could sustain my hobby? like i just need to cover my expenses for travel, for new equipment, etc. all while my other business (my real bread and butter) does things for the food on the table, the family, etc.

they are now appealing to your moral or ethical values to stop what you are doing.

what should i do then to recover my investments and sustain my hobby? operate and do things like them? I just cant do what they do. their objectives are different. if by not hearing and doing their appeals, will i be void of moral and ethical values? all i wanted is to keep this hobby up and running.

are their demand/appeal/request/preaching valid ?

yes. very much valid. but i feel very much obligated to also state my case in this example. that I cannot probably do what they want me to do. That, as a hobbyist, I need to adapt too to sustain this very expensive hobby. They have to realize they need to adapt to the reality that photography can both be a business or a hobby or both and each have its own unique circumstances and businesses needs to realize that hobbyists can become a threat. It is really different now, photography is within reach to a large number of people. like me.
This is just an example though but it is out there for them to deal with. There are other scenarios more threatening to them and we know what all those are.

how the hell are you going to recoup your costs if youre going to charge free???

stop preaching motherhood statements....i dont care if youre amatuer, starting, pro, old-pro, dead pro, nag pro-pro an....you dont work for free...you charge appropriately.

if youre amatuer and you dont have overhead your fee will be low, if you have a studio and all the works you charge more...YOU DONT CHARGE ZILCH.

how will you sustain your hobby if you dont charge? you charge 1.5k for a bday party....did you recoup all your costs? what if your gear conks out, now you need to pay 50k again to get a new camera or get it fixed....surprise your free work is not paying for anything....

you see the nominal amount entering your pocket and you think youre making money....news report youre not! not until you sit down and account for all your costs and see if your price covered them...otherwise it would have been wiser to sit at home and watch tv.

please stop trying to defend something with generalized statements....show me a project plan with proposed income flows with FREE shoots as a marketing strategy. with this i dont mean 1 or 3 headshot photos to show how good you are but full blown shoots.

and yes, going real cheap hurts the industry. advertising firms get a budget from their principals lets say 100k....if the advertising firm can get the same job for 5k, guess what 95k just went to their bottomline..if they can consistently get 5k shooters then theyd expect that to be market rate...of course there are still those that would seek the likes of Ken Go or John Chua....but not everyone is on the same level. now, thats how i understand the industry, if im wrong im very sorry...maybe sir Ken can enlighten us more on this.....

Free isn't free at all.
What one gives, that same person similarly takes in an equation that will withstand the tests of time.

There can never be any action without an equal and opposite reaction.

One can work for free and not get paid in money, but will take an equal replacement for it, be it in a smile, a handshake, an appreciation, a stick of fishballs, or an ice cream off mini stop.

One can work for a fee as well, and not receive the beautiful yet mundane things as the ones mentioned, the opposite reaction puts food on the table.

There is more to photography than money, and there is more money in photography than free.

You see, the objective of a business is to earn money, lots of it. But some people has set limitations to how much is much, whether in paper, or in their souls. These people determine, for themselves, when that objective has been met. Once met, the business enters into another step up the ladder. Having entered into a new stage, some (and for a very noble purpose) shares selflessly the lessons learned on the previous stages of the business, this process of sharing executes the inner objective not readily seen on corporate mission-vision statements - this is simply called fulfillment. We can not live a life with money on top of our heads forever, while it does make the world go round, it doesn't make us complete. Fulfillments make us complete. It fills the void within us. It makes us perfect for the age we belong. I remember how my lolo shares without equivocations his story about WWII. He was there, been there, done that. He was sharing, to fill the voids of our gaps. He has since died, and the picture he painted has remained with me.

All of us, in time, will enter into the crossroads that puts less value on money and more value on fulfillment.

Any photographer who works for free will soon realize that opportunities can be grabbed for some material gains no matter the amount.

Any photographer who works for profit will soon realize when it is time to share that knowledge, for it is never self-destructive to teach and share, it is rather, self-liberating and mature to do so.

Any photographer who minds his own business perfects it and thrives. The fittest survive, but take note, even the buwaya along the Serengeti is no match for the bacteria that causes its eyes to go blind. Soon enough, size doesn't make one a king.

Any photographer who opens new doors will be welcomed first. But real photographers do not close the doors when they enter, in fact, they widen the doors for others to enter with them. Of course, real photographers are scarce these days, when you meet one, i know you will find yourself small in front of them.

This is a true story.

Client has a project with a 40K budget. Pro Photog quoted 35K for the service. Newbie Photog quoted 4.5K for the project. Newbie #1 photog got the contract. He still could have gotten the contract even if he quoted 20K but being eager and uninformed (maybe he reads/got some advise to price low to enter the market :D), he quoted really low to make sure he gets the project. The client lowered the budget for the next project to 5K since he can get a photog for that budget anyway. Newbie #1 increased his rate to 8K. He can't get the project now since his cost is already above the budget. Now comes Newbie #2 offering to get the project for free. Guess what's the budget now for the client's next project. Now who's hurt? :D

As sir Moya indicated in his post, the pain can be temporary. If the 4.5k photog feels he is still earning by 10% and he is willing to do that one deal at a time, good for the clients but bad news for others in the photog biz that are charging higher. If the 4.5k photog (lower than 6k na ngayon :)) is just doing it so he can gain entry into the industry, then the effects are temporary. time will come, everything catches up with him and he will be forced to deal with new issues and challenges but his goal to gain entry is already satisfied from his point of view. am sure if he is progressing little by little, he will go for the next level until he achieves his next goal and go again for the next higher level. time will come he also needs to deal with 3k photogs and deal with the concerns of getting bigger. :)

meanwhile, the client is enjoying the benefits of this dynamics. the client will feel if the dynamics force him to pay more in the future.

i dont see anyting wrong in all these. these are natural forces that one has to deal with.

then the effects are temporary. with.

I'm afraid its not temporary. See what happened to the client's next project because of it? The 40K budget went down to 5K and became their standard. And see what happened to that newbie photog? He didn't get the next project 'coz he increased his price when he learned he could have priced higher but he already set the price for that client and somebody else took the next project for free. The newbie photog actually earned from that first project but unfortunately he can't go to the next level like you mentioned 'coz he already set the standard by that low price. To get that next project he should remain at 4.5K. The main point here is "the lowering of the standard" and not the "getting the job away from the pro". And the price standard is getting lower and lower (read: strategy eh) . The pain will remain until

When i grow up and get rich, i'll do all (whatever your profession) your job/projects for free :Grin:.

Oops, i hadn't edited my posts so far, i never mentioned any temporary pains, i did mentioned temporary gains.

"No pain can come to those who talk of other people's pain.
But all gains from other people's pains are really just temporary.
It can not last. The only real gain comes with pain."

It is quite hard, if not totally impossible, to raise your fee for previous clients you worked with. You'll probably hear, "Last time eto lang budget natin pero ok naman sa yo di ba?" or the infamous line "Bawi na lang kami sa yo next time, may big project kami susunod." Just like what Mitz said, the low price one quotes usually becomes the client's standard. And with the number of people wanting to shoot for fun, gain experience or receive some perks--regardless if they are hobbyists or aspiring pros--the chances of you hearing again from the client again is very low if you try to quote a higher price. Unless you are willing to agree on your previous low rate, there will always be someone out there to do the job for free or at a lower cost. Scenarios like this, I think, is akin to setting your own trap.

are the demand/request/appeal/preaching of those being hurt by photographers charging free/cheap price valid ?

legally, to my knowledge, there is no law being broken as these things have been going on for a while and i have not heard anybody being charge legally for charging cheap or free.

ethically or morally wrong ? that's subjective. those that are being hurt will say that's morally wrong. but those that are getting some benefits in charging cheap/free say there are losers because they were unable to adapt to the changing situations (economic cycles and technical evolution).

if those charging cheap/free were really losing money in photography they will ultimately stop not unless they have tons of money to lose. but surely there will still be lots of suckers that will come along to replace them.

those that are being hurt will still get hurt and there will still be a lot of photographers that will be charging cheap/free. so what are the options of those being hurt -

- keep on complaining hoping, photographers charging cheap/free will soon feel guilty and
stop.

- if you can't beat them, join them.

- wait for the upturn of the economy and learn to adapt to the fast changing technology in
photography

for the meantime, the winners are the consumers/clients.

are the demand/request/appeal/preaching of those being hurt by photographers charging free/cheap price valid ?

legally, to my knowledge, there is no law being broken as these things have been going on for a while and i have not heard anybody being charge legally for charging cheap or free.

ethically or morally wrong ? that's subjective. those that are being hurt will say that's morally wrong. but those that are getting some benefits in charging cheap/free say there are losers because they were unable to adapt to the changing situations (economic cycles and technical evolution).

if those charging cheap/free were really losing money in photography they will ultimately stop not unless they have tons of money to lose. but surely there will still be lots of suckers that will come along to replace them.

those that are being hurt will still get hurt and there will still be a lot of photographers that will be charging cheap/free. so what are the options of those being hurt -

- keep on complaining hoping, photographers charging cheap/free will soon feel guilty and
stop.

- if you can't beat them, join them.

- wait for the upturn of the economy and learn to adapt to the fast changing technology in
photography

for the meantime, the winners are the consumers/clients.

Very good summary to this very long and heated arguement... :)

I would just add one more thing to your list: Change the game! How? I have no freakin' idea (and even if I do, I won't tell you either... hehehe)... I know its so easy to say, but very hard to do (or even think about it)...

Like any other industry, photography is evolving. And remember, its not the strongest that actually survives, its the one that is able to adapt to its environment (imagine if just the strongest survives, where are all the T-Rexes and why do we still have one-celled animals).

We are entering the Age of the Small Brother (as opposed to the Orwellian concept of Big Brother where there is a central being that watches everyone, now we have everyone watching everyone). Every John, Paul and George has a camera now, and everyone wants to be a photographer (me included). Its the times changing and all we can do is roll with it (or curl up and die!).

WOW i have learned a lot reading this, like the 5k photographer or free lunch photographer thread ba yun ?? hehehe ...

anyway this is all true ... i'm not a pro, and i'm just hobbyist enthusiast, shooting for a "token or souvenirs" nyehehehe

but i have a PRO friend he's actually my mentor, and he said that the technology really hurts this business ...

Let's just all attend ma'am Harvey's seminar, and share our ideas there. :) I hope Sir Marlo Moya and Ken Go could come. :)

This list is for a free seminar on the question "Work for Free."
Schedule to be arranged
Venue: Adphoto.

1. Dean Ang - newbie
2.Abraham Domingo ( i hope its schedules somewhere around 2 or 3rd week of april, 1st half of april is my thesis defense.)
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

When you cut and paste the list, please include the reason for the list. :)

Let's just all attend ma'am Harvey's seminar, and share our ideas there. :) I hope Sir Marlo Moya and Ken Go could come. :)

This list is for a free seminar on the question "Work for Free."
Schedule to be arranged
Venue: Adphoto.

1. Dean Ang - newbie
2.Abraham Domingo ( i hope its schedules somewhere around 2 or 3rd week of april, 1st half of april is my thesis defense.)
3. Brian Enriquez - interested in learning the business
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

When you cut and paste the list, please include the reason for the list. :)

This should be very informative for everyone...

Let's just all attend ma'am Harvey's seminar, and share our ideas there. :) I hope Sir Marlo Moya and Ken Go could come. :)

This list is for a free seminar on the question "Work for Free."
Schedule to be arranged
Venue: Adphoto.

1. Dean Ang - newbie
2.Abraham Domingo ( i hope its schedules somewhere around 2 or 3rd week of april, 1st half of april is my thesis defense.)
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

When you cut and paste the list, please include the reason for the list. :)

I had a class with ma'am Harvey a few months ago regarding business of photography... We covered negotiations, some case study and a peek how Adphoto does its business... There was so many stuff to cover, but I would say its one of the best and informative mornings I had...

Highly recommended!!! :)

Let's just all attend ma'am Harvey's seminar, and share our ideas there. :) I hope Sir Marlo Moya and Ken Go could come. :)

This list is for a free seminar on the question "Work for Free."
Schedule to be arranged
Venue: Adphoto.

1. Dean Ang - newbie
2.Abraham Domingo ( i hope its schedules somewhere around 2 or 3rd week of april, 1st half of april is my thesis defense.)
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.

When you cut and paste the list, please include the reason for the list. :)

Please go to the other thread "Free Seminar on "Work for Free for Work for Profit" to sign up. Please give up this list. :)

Except for scams or unethical practices like under the table deals, business is really free for all. You choose your own strategies - for marketing, selling, pricing etc. We can choose to price high or low, subject to the law of supply and demand. In fact, we can have combinations of high and low prices within one company. There is nothing illegal or immoral in any kind of pricing, so no one can dictate this to you.

The successful companies have some things in common, and one of them is that they think through their strategies, including pricing and promotions. They know costs, processes and expected results.

They may give away samples, or discounts, or render their services for free but they must present their reason for this offering (introductory price, anniversary offering, etc.), as well as indicate an end-date (while supplies last, or 70% from March 13 to 15). Otherwise, customers will peg you to those prices (or non-prices).

So next time, you are offering your services for free - say that the offer is good until March 30 (or if you like, for all of 2009.:), and say why - I am building up my portfolio, or while I still have my job with XYZ Company. That way, when you see your client in 2010 or you've turned to being a full-time photographer, you can justify why you are starting to charge.

Oops, i hadn't edited my posts so far, i never mentioned any temporary pains, i did mentioned temporary gains.

"No pain can come to those who talk of other people's pain.
But all gains from other people's pains are really just temporary.
It can not last. The only real gain comes with pain."

opps sorry. posting in the wee hours can really blur one's computer :Grin: nevertheless, i still stick to my statement that the pain can be temporary. :) cheers!

I'm afraid its not temporary. See what happened to the client's next project because of it? The 40K budget went down to 5K and became their standard.

hehehe. really? for argument's sake, for as long as I am earning from a 5k deal ... no complaints here. you make it sound that 5k photogs out there are just plain stupid. you might not even know how they can pull it off and still earn in the process. So who is in pain? certainly not the client, not the photog.

And see what happened to that newbie photog? He didn't get the next project 'coz he increased his price when he learned he could have priced higher but he already set the price for that client and somebody else took the next project for free.

That is ok. he can stumble in the beginning, he can learn from mistakes. on his third try, he will know how to deal with it. if he cant figure it out in 5 tries, he is plain stupid. If he is stupid, that person doesnt deserve being discussed in this thread. He is not the threat being discussed around here.

The real threat that I am referring is somebody who can very well pull it off and do more and well for less.

The newbie photog actually earned from that first project but unfortunately he can't go to the next level like you mentioned 'coz he already set the standard by that low price. To get that next project he should remain at 4.5K.

If this is how you do it, i can't blame you if you think the guy is stupid. I mean if I am that guy, why would I stick with the same client? I can probably look for others and probably charge a bit more. like 5999.99 :)

Let us make myself as an example. E.g., I happen to join a bid where I need to compete with sir Harvey Chua and sir Ken Go. They are already known in the industry, I am not. If I have to price my bid like they do, who do you think will win the deal?

hehehe. really? for argument's sake, for as long as I am earning from a 5k deal ... no complaints here. you make it sound that 5k photogs out there are just plain stupid. you might not even know how they can pull it off and still earn in the process. So who is in pain? certainly not the client, not the photog.


That is ok. he can stumble in the beginning, he can learn from mistakes. on his third try, he will know how to deal with it. if he cant figure it out in 5 tries, he is plain stupid. If he is stupid, that person doesnt deserve being discussed in this thread. He is not the threat being discussed around here.

The real threat that I am referring is somebody who can very well pull it off and do more and well for less.



If this is how you do it, i can't blame you if you think the guy is stupid. I mean if I am that guy, why would I stick with the same client? I can probably look for others and probably charge a bit more. like 5999.99 :)

Let us make myself as an example. E.g., I happen to join a bid where I need to compete with sir Harvey Chua and sir Ken Go. They are already known in the industry, I am not. If I have to price my bid like they do, who do you think will win the deal?

You still don't get the point. Its not about you earning 5K, its not about the pros earning less. Its the photography profession going down the drain. And where in my statement did i ever sound the 5K photog is stupid? He earned from his 5K. But he just lost the opportunity to earn more. Unless you consider not earning more as stupidity. If the industry rate became 5K how then can you find another client where you can charge more like you mentioned?

If i go against Ken or Harvey i would not bid like their price. If they price 50K, i would price mine 30K and win the project but not 5K to win the project. If the budget or the project is only worth 5K then i would quote 5K. Heck, i even got projects as low as 3K but i know those projects are really just worth 3K. I dont have a problem with 5K. This is the point in my previous post. Did you really understood my post and that story?

Hello again,

Not to beat a dead horse, I feel the need to state that there are philisophical differences among us photographers both pro, non-pro, hobbyist, amateur etc.

To me, photography is an art, a form of self-expression. Some people like my stuff some don't. That's fine with me. Sometimes they even want to pay you for it. I decline. I can hear it now(snickering on the background, some saying stupid Norm). My cost is my own time. My payment is the smile, comments and approval from my projects. Over the weekend, I was the photographer for the Chicago St. Patrick's parade. I stood and walk for over four hours with all the gear I need. I was tired but enjoyed every minute of it. I don't feel guilty since I told my client that I am not a professional. YOu get what you pay for. IN this case nothing.

There is alot of DIY (do it yourself) programs here in the US. Plumbing, carperting, roof installation, yet
there are no complains coming from the Unions or professional installers.

Most clients understands the risks between the hiring of DIYs or professionals.

Maybe that's what we need in the Philippines. The ability to distinguish between Professionals and non-professionals. All professionals in Photography should have a national organization and certification. At least the clients will know who they are hiring and what the advantages and disavantages.

I think the challenge lies what to do with hobbyist like me. I won't give up my passion because somebody has to make money and I am taking it away from them! I say that's the client's perogative. A lot of you have said, it boils down to business strategy. Business is making money and nobody said having your own business to make money would be easy.

Anyway, I've mumbled enough. Thanks for reading.

NormT

h)

Let us make myself as an example. E.g., I happen to join a bid where I need to compete with sir Harvey Chua and sir Ken Go. They are already known in the industry, I am not. If I have to price my bid like they do, who do you think will win the deal?

If we were already known in the industry, you would not refer to me as "Sir.":D

That 's good one LOL

In my opinion, education is the key.

Those who have been in the industry for a long time can charge what they charge because they have gone through the factors and computations to make the business profitable, aside from the fact that they have established their names. :) They have learned the trade, through experience (and maybe school). Those who are just entering the business (new professional photogs) charge less/cheap because 1) they see that it's their only way of getting a project and 2) they probably do not have the knowledge on what factors to consider in determining how much to charge. I don't think everyone who enters the photography industry has some background in running a business. It's great if you have one, but if you don't, you'd probably end up charging dirt cheap (or way too high) for your service. You might have hurt the industry but it's not that you did it with intention.

In a way it's just like our authorities doing the best efforts to conserve our endangered species, but our (uninformed, uneducated) locals continue hunting the species, simply because they do not know the species is endangered and perhaps they need to do it in order to bring food to the table. So they key is to inform the locals. Educate them on the consequences of what they are doing.

I believe this can also be done in the photography industry, as what Maam Harvey has started. Maybe those who have been in the business for a long time can conduct (regular?) seminars and the likes to inform new photographers the stuff they need to know to run the business -- from pricing, technical skills, or even marketing. It might sound like giving your food to your competitors but I think it'll do better in the long run by keeping new photographers from charging fees that would kill the industry. After all, those who charge cheap do not do it simply because they wanted to, but because it's what their circumstances dictate so (at least as they see it).

Just my two cents. :)

If we were already known in the industry, you would not refer to me as "Sir.":D

hehehe. Sorry for that ma'am. I have seen your impressive site and portfolios and your name is Harvey but your avatar is a 'ma'am'. Just seeing your site makes me wana do work for free just to get a client coz there is no way a start up could beat you if he plays your game.

hehehe. Sorry for that ma'am. I have seen your impressive site and portfolios and your name is Harvey but your avatar is a 'ma'am'. Just seeing your site makes me wana do work for free just to get a client coz there is no way a start up could beat you if he plays your game.

Oh... Corporate guys would certainly love you and your kind... :)

You still don't get the point. Its not about you earning 5K, its not about the pros earning less. Its the photography profession going down the drain.

so really, people are blaming the newbies for wrecking havoc in the industry. blaming just doesnt sound as progressive to me. that is what the market is now. deal with it. we might be able to preach that what they are doing is wrong but at the end of the day, it all boils down to the individual's circumstances and not the industry's. It so happen that the number of these cases is significant enough to become a threat to others.


And where in my statement did i ever sound the 5K photog is stupid? He earned from his 5K. But he just lost the opportunity to earn more. Unless you consider not earning more as stupidity. If the industry rate became 5K how then can you find another client where you can charge more like you mentioned?

as i have said, it depends on whether you are still earning money from that 5k. it doesnt mean that when one offers a 5k worth of deal, he is losing. He might have something you dont know that is why it is possible for him to give it away at 5k. If he is earning from the 5k, like 10% .. we just cant blame people if all they want is a measly sum of 500 pesos as income from the deal.

If i go against Ken or Harvey i would not bid like their price. If they price 50K, i would price mine 30K and win the project but not 5K to win the project.

same effect. if i go with your logic, the next time, the client pegs their budget at 30k so no more 50k budgets. if i go with my logic, if you know you are earning 10% from that 30k, you are fine. If you intentionally lose money in that 30k project just to get it, it is practically the same case like that of the 5k story. but if a 3rd guy figures out he can do the same job for 5k and still earns at least 20% and joins the fray, am sure he will be cursed by many.

What I am trying to point out is that, for as long as that 5k photog earns even a small fraction of the bid price, we have no right to dictate on what he wants to achieve.

Oh... Corporate guys would certainly love you and your kind... :)

I meant no offense to Ma'am Harvey. But I just can't be dishonest on that sir if given such opportunity. I am sure a lot of people will do the same thing. But i dont think my kind will make Ma'am harvey's business suffer nor I will put down the industry. Big photog outfits have their edge and weaknesses, newbies have their edge and weaknesses too. Only the client knows how to figure out which one of them is for them.

Case study No. 1

Today, I received a cheque for P42,000 for a project that I am ABOUT TO do (trans: future tense, because that's what I put on my proposal - Advanced and in full)). It isn't a hard project. 5 layouts of an interior, deliverables include web optimized images and it's high resolution TIFF. My proposal was among 4 others. They priced their services for P3,5k, P7k and P12k, all are locals. No BS here, I can show you the cheque if you want.

Was it because they know me?
Was it because they have seen my work?
Was it because I have the right equipment?
Was it because my English proposal looked good?
Was it because a high price translates to better delivery?

And another set of Qs.

Was I extorting too much?
Was I just licky lucky?
Did my cost proposal strike the client's perception of a reasonable photographer's fee?
Did the client thrash the low cost proposals?

Tomorrow, i will get me that 21-inch Broncolor beauty dish i've been asking Island to save for me.

Methinks.
I'm not hurt by this transaction, should I be?
The 3 other proposals lost, but they didn't really lose anything, did they?

Conclusion : There is just too many opportunities for most everyone if they can play their cards right. Toto has presented the side of the business that seeks to break the current rules while asserting the essential nature of competition, I call this "House's cut throat bitch". It is at the least, enlightening. But not perfect.

Madame Harvey and Mitz has presented the side of business that seeks to alleviate the general take home money of most other strugglers who has been stuck in the very glue they've created. Fulfilling. But not perfect as well.

The perfection of this business will come, only when equipment can be had for free, and food is readily available on the table for all, such that, the literal importance of money no longer requires competition.

Of course, that would be Nirvana.

Let's play.

hehehe. Sorry for that ma'am. I have seen your impressive site and portfolios and your name is Harvey but your avatar is a 'ma'am'. Just seeing your site makes me wana do work for free just to get a client coz there is no way a start up could beat you if he plays your game.

Oh, but we do win some and we do lose some - which is why we need to keep on our toes - learning new photo techniques, investing in new equipment and facilities, adapting new styles, reading books, surfing the net, attending seminars and workshops, joining trade associations, brainstorming, etc. Have you met John? He is always reinventing himself.

Probably one of the benefits of having competitors is that we are prevented from being complacent. And one of the benefits of sharing what we know is we get challenged to know even more, so that we are at least a step ahead.

This is precisely my point - you don't need to compete against us ONLY by lowering prices, although I can't prevent you or anyone from doing so. But what if you could charge even higher than the regular pros, including us, by showing really great, refreshingly new portfolio that catches the eye of the client. Or maybe simply by being more charming than a jaded old lady like me. :D

If i go against Ken or Harvey i would not bid like their price. If they price 50K, i would price mine 30K and win the project but not 5K to win the project.


Hi Mitz,

I'm glad you are sharing this important insight. You are right - photographers must do some business intelligence (as in like CIA work) to know how much the client regularly pays for projects like the project that's being bidded out, so that they don't have to drop spectacularly from what other photographers are bidding. Sometimes, all you have to do is ask "who else is bidding for this project?" or "Who did (or does) photography for you?

On the other hand, I know from experience that just because we bidded lower (or lowest) does not mean we will automatically get the job. it is not always the lowest bidder who gets the job. Especially in advertising, print producers know the capabilities of the photographers they invite, and they look at bids and see which bids are reasonable - meaning the quote of the photographer goes with his expertise, equipment etc. and if it matches the requirements of the project. Sometimes, they disregard the lowest and the highest and choose among the mid-range bidders.

I meant no offense to Ma'am Harvey. But I just can't be dishonest on that sir if given such opportunity. I am sure a lot of people will do the same thing. But i dont think my kind will make Ma'am harvey's business suffer nor I will put down the industry. Big photog outfits have their edge and weaknesses, newbies have their edge and weaknesses too. Only the client knows how to figure out which one of them is for them.

No offense taken. :)

Today, I received a cheque for P42,000 for a project that I am ABOUT TO do (trans: future tense, because that's what I put on my proposal - Advanced and in full)). It isn't a hard project. 5 layouts of an interior, deliverables include web optimized images and it's high resolution TIFF. My proposal was among 4 others. They priced their services for P3,5k, P7k and P12k, all are locals. No BS here, I can show you the cheque if you want.

Was it because they know me?
Was it because they have seen my work?
Was it because I have the right equipment?
Was it because my English proposal looked good?
Was it because a high price translates to better delivery?

And another set of Qs.

Was I extorting too much?
Was I just licky lucky?
Did my cost proposal strike the client's perception of a reasonable photographer's fee?
Did the client thrash the low cost proposals?

There is only one answer for this sir. And the question for this answer was never included in your list of questions :) How about this?

Q: Was it because they really like your portfolio way better than your competitors?
A: Probably i guess! :)

As I have said, price is only one factor that we can use as leverage and we have to use it wisely. If your portfolio sucks, even though you are giving your bid away for free, they will not get you. They will just treat you as a nuisance bidder. Besides this isn't the case I am trying to present.

What I am presenting, which up to now, no one has reacted/responded, that given all things being equal between 2 photogs, one charges higher and the other charges 80% less while the lowest bidder still managed to earn 25% from his bid, if you are the client, whom will you award the contract?

My inexperienced brain tells me, I have to award it to the lowest bidder.

Here is the interesting part, if the lowest bidder shows the client a much better portfolio than those charging higher, it will make a lasting impression on that client's mind. Well for me that could be considered an "industry" buster. :)

Oh, but we do win some and we do lose some - which is why we need to keep on our toes - learning new photo techniques, investing in new equipment and facilities, adapting new styles, reading books, surfing the net, attending seminars and workshops, joining trade associations, brainstorming, etc. Have you met John? He is always reinventing himself.

That should be the attitude. There is really no guarantee for anyone to win any deal even if the work is given for free. If your portfolio sucks, no one will be interested in it.

However, I am quite sure that a lot of those who are willing to give away their work for free (for valid reasons like doing some experiments, gaining experience, and building portfolios) can be really good photographers. If the clients find out that they can get equaly or even better images for less, I am sure this "industry" will change and will be hard for those who wont be able to adapt.

@Toto, thank you for not brutally telling me i extorted too much, hahahaha.

Here's the writing on the wall.
I pray i don't injure myself in the shoot.
Pray i wouldn't damage the gears to boot.
Lest whatever monies they paid me no matter how good
Would all be for naught - not even enough for food.
The important thing is to keep you in the fore
Too little or too much would matter no more

Marlo

@Toto, thank you for not brutally telling me i extorted too much, hahahaha.

Here's the writing on the wall.
I pray i don't injure myself in the shoot.
Pray i wouldn't damage the gears to boot.
Lest whatever monies they paid me no matter how good
Would all be for naught - not even enough for food.
The important thing is to keep you in the fore
Too little or too much would matter no more

Marlo

Hi Marlo, I like the way you write!

Must learn how to write with rhymes. :) Must read more poetry.

@Toto, thank you for not brutally telling me i extorted too much, hahahaha.

Here's the writing on the wall.
I pray i don't injure myself in the shoot.
Pray i wouldn't damage the gears to boot.
Lest whatever monies they paid me no matter how good
Would all be for naught - not even enough for food.
The important thing is to keep you in the fore
Too little or too much would matter no more

Marlo

Photographer... Magazine Publisher... now Poet... Quite talented! :)

@ Madame Harvey, you inspire me. I may not be able to keep myself from giving you a big hug when time and chance approves.

@Melvin, i laughed, the only Poet i know is down under, hahaha.

@ Madame Harvey, you inspire me. I may not be able to keep myself from giving you a big hug when time and chance approves.

@Melvin, i laughed, the only Poet i know is down under, hahaha.

I'm old enough (63) to get hugged without getting my husband jealous. :Grin:

My sentiments exactly! Thank you very much.


I only shoot for free if it's for my portfolio, a friend, or family. There are also those rare occasions where shooting for free can net me a bigger job in the long run. Other than that, I make sure to maintain a standard when it comes to pricing. Dropping my rates is not an option because I have daily expenses and a profit margin that I want to maintain.

Beginners do charge cheap because of the lack of experience and the eagerness to just get the job. And I do agree with you that it tends to lower the value of our work as professional photographers. However, this is really their prerogative, and as long as there is no association or chamber that would control industry rates, there will be no way to prevent them from doing so.

Also, it really depends on what clients you are servicing. If you work in advertising and publications, quality will always be the key. Photographers do get hired because they can offer high quality images and professionalized services. Now if there are other photographers bidding for the project, then it boils down to who has the better folio and better prices. In some cases, pricing high won't even matter if you can provide something exceptional to the client. Most advertising agencies would raise an eyebrow and be skeptical of any photographer who wants to get a project just because they offer to shoot it for free or offer absurdly low rates.

Then there's the dark horse who'll show up who's VERY good, and will offer to give their services for free. Those are the ones who stir things up. The only method to deal with that situation is to just do a better job (rather than having them killed right? :D haha i kid i kid).

My gosh! Lost contract with three clients just over the weekend. One I quote as saying that they can get photographers who can have their services free just for free meals and referrals. The shocking part was they mentioned this site (DPP) as one of their sources of their free service photographers and videographers (the other one being FPPF) and they surely get "tons" of photographers willing to shoot for free. Well, that's the way the system goes with the birth of digital age. Nobody now is scared if the pictures dont come out bad what with LCD viewing, deleting and pirated (hehehe) photoshop software. I took a peek at the photographers' multiply site and they have impressive portfolios.

Not to mentioned also SOME groups of photographers who started those ex-deals with big companies, advertising and resorts. The administrators now know where to get those free service photographers and as a bonus, can get hundred, if not thousands of images just by have those ex-deals and low budgeted photo contests (first prize - P2,000.00). Again, those photographers do have really good portfolios. Scary! hehehe

My gosh! Lost contract with three clients just over the weekend. One I quote as saying that they can get photographers who can have their services free just for free meals and referrals. The shocking part was they mentioned this site (DPP) as one of their sources of their free service photographers and videographers (the other one being FPPF) and they surely get "tons" of photographers willing to shoot for free. Well, that's the way the system goes with the birth of digital age. Nobody now is scared if the pictures dont come out bad what with LCD viewing, deleting and pirated (hehehe) photoshop software. I took a peek at the photographers' multiply site and they have impressive portfolios.

bad DPP. it seems that to have free meals and referrals are also hard to get now. so what can we do ? cry (iyak na lang).

I admit that I have done shoots for free (for friends) and that I am willing to do a job for a low price, and for the reasons that everyone has already mentioned, i.e., Just starting out, lack of experience, and eagerness to get the job. The thing is, how do you determine the value of your work? I mean, I know I can sometimes take decent photos but it's most of the time it's a hit-and-miss thing. How do I know that I'm charging too much/too low? Also, I know that there are a LOT of talented photographers out there. How else can I get (paid) experience if I didn't start out with lower prices?

I do believe that in any industry there is a market category segment but nothing is free.

I been reading for sometime in local/international forum regarding arguments about degrading of prices in photography business it means that it’s not only happening here. We cannot blame the technology the reason of this problem. Anyone who can afford to buy a DSLR can now start charging fee no matter how they do it free or cheap, not aware that they are hurting the livelihood of the PROs who invest money, time in honing their skills.

We cannot bring back the film days were few who can sustain this hobby/business because its very complicated and expensive..

I would like to make a simple illustration to food industry the market category I was saying,

·There’s a TONY ROMA’s Restaurant if you are looking for a fine dining, very expensive but it’s worth it. Rare, you can only find them in the key cities.

·JOLIBEE Restaurant, for masses but decent food very affordable prices. Reachable, you can find them in every busy streets in the city.

·TURO-TURO, you can find them anywhere no specifics anything goes.

But nobody of them gave away their food for FREE, maybe you can tell who you are in this category.

So whenever I heard somebody that he/she charge this kind of rate I understand, just think that client and photographer are within this category but I condemn those who are giving their service for free (except family and friend of course it’s their option) .

I think we cannot control the people who charge cheap or free because so many aspiring photographers now a days.

I think we cannot control the people who charge cheap or free because so many aspiring photographers now a days.

Definitely hard to control, but what we must do is educate these people the value of their work. We must also let them know that charging free or cheap will not get them their desired rate that quick, for they themselves have made clients lower their budget for photography. As they say, they are killing the industry they plan on getting into.

Though on a good note, I recently got a job due to a low budget photographer, and they had no choice but to pay my rates because of the limited time they had left. A client has a new shop opening and is in need of wall displays, sadly for the client the initial photographer they hired submitted photos though technicaly good (exposure, focus and etc.) but the aesthetics was just so far from what they need. I am not sure if the client will (though they should) pay the initial group, but the time and resources wasted to prepare for a shoot are already considered as expenses for them. I really hope things like this will help clients realize that getting cheap or free may not save them money all the time, and in some cases cost them more.

Ken

I admit that I have done shoots for free (for friends) and that I am willing to do a job for a low price, and for the reasons that everyone has already mentioned, i.e., Just starting out, lack of experience, and eagerness to get the job. The thing is, how do you determine the value of your work? I mean, I know I can sometimes take decent photos but it's most of the time it's a hit-and-miss thing. How do I know that I'm charging too much/too low? Also, I know that there are a LOT of talented photographers out there. How else can I get (paid) experience if I didn't start out with lower prices?


Experience and skill can be had even without clients involved, shooting a family party is not much different than shooting someone else's party. Shooting random products at home, will teach you how to do product shots and etc.

Imagine all the incoming newbies having this frame of mind, and everyone offers their services cheap and free to clients. This in turn will lower the overall budget for photography of all these clients, by the time you have gained your experience and want to charge high, you can't. Why? Clients no longer have the budget to pay for your increase price, its either you loose the job or accept the same low rates. So though you have gained the experience you are still where you started in terms of monetary benefits. Now also imagine this as your bread and butter, and having to do an avergae 10 shoots a week due to lower rates to make ends meet, it will no longer be as fun as you think it is, it can easily burn you out and even maybe make you hate photography. Taking photos will now become a chore rather than something you enjoy. You may say that you can always quit and go back to your office work, but the damage made is going to be very difficult to fix within a reasnable time.

If you really want to make a profession out of photography, you need to look at the long term effects of your action and not just short term.

Ken

Definitely hard to control, but what we must do is educate these people the value of their work. We must also let them know that charging free or cheap will not get them their desired rate that quick, for they themselves have made clients lower their budget for photography. As they say, they are killing the industry they plan on getting into.

Though on a good note, I recently got a job due to a low budget photographer, and they had no choice but to pay my rates because of the limited time they had left. A client has a new shop opening and is in need of wall displays, sadly for the client the initial photographer they hired submitted photos though technicaly good (exposure, focus and etc.) but the aesthetics was just so far from what they need. I am not sure if the client will (though they should) pay the initial group, but the time and resources wasted to prepare for a shoot are already considered as expenses for them. I really hope things like this will help clients realize that getting cheap or free may not save them money all the time, and in some cases cost them more.

Ken

Amen to that, Ken.

Ninety percent of small businesses fail within the first two years. With few exceptions, working for free is the fastest way for freelance photographers to become part of this 90 percent.

Here are a few excuses I’ve heard for working for free, along with my responses:
Read full article here (http://rising.blackstar.com/photographers-excuses.html)

7. I like my day job in IT, but at night I am passionate about photography. I don’t mind self-funding my work because it gives me more creative freedom.

Guess what, IT guy? When India’s night work takes over your day job, don’t call me crying about it. Also, don’t bother trying to make a living from your “passion,” because you’re already doing all you can to undermine your chances — as well as everyone else’s.


(ok this one hits me)

tfs paolo.. i've heard some of the lines before.. bookmarked..

Man! It's like déjà vu.. hehe(sad laughter)

haha. The comment with the "Get lost..." line: *Like*

Ninety percent of small businesses fail within the first two years. With few exceptions, working for free is the fastest way for freelance photographers to become part of this 90 percent.

Here are a few excuses I’ve heard for working for free, along with my responses:
Read full article here (http://rising.blackstar.com/photographers-excuses.html)

7. I like my day job in IT, but at night I am passionate about photography. I don’t mind self-funding my work because it gives me more creative freedom.

Guess what, IT guy? When India’s night work takes over your day job, don’t call me crying about it. Also, don’t bother trying to make a living from your “passion,” because you’re already doing all you can to undermine your chances — as well as everyone else’s.


(ok this one hits me)

tfs paolo! this one hits me too (am in IT myself! lol). i've discovered the thrill of taking pictures a few years ago... and still couldn't get enough of it. i've decided to take it seriously now, though. so this thread is fuel to my fire, so to speak. :)

here's another good read:
http://editorialphoto.com/resources/value_of_photography.asp

Did someone worked for "Free" stole his project that's why he is soooooooo mad with photographers working for free to learn? :D

i wonder how the author started out in photography, was he paid for his very first gig?

I read that too. My question is, where do he suggest an amateur skilled photographer to start with? Like me, I'm still developing my skill set, trying to find and create my style. As of now that I'm shooting for free, I got the freedom of my shoot. From the location, clothes, poses and lights. Control is important to me.

I have a goal that someday I can shoot a gig with a decent pay using my found style.

I really don't mind that post. Move on and focus on my/our stuff.

Did someone worked for "Free" stole his project that's why he is soooooooo mad with photographers working for free to learn? :D

i have shot for free as a hobby, for friends, or for charity. i've even been surprised once when a friend called me, told me to be at a party in a few hours that same day, i did go and shot as a friend, and later got a small 'token' for being there.

what i dont like is when the task is big, serious(like a wedding or someother event), you know its for someone or some company that can pay, there is and should be a budget for a photograher, and what they do is pay you peanuts, thank you, we'll make you popular, pay you a year later, or ask from the start for you to shoot for free.

no project was stolen from me but its a fact that for the established pros out there, for every paid project, several went down the drain to someone/some company who was just 'learning'.

for those who are learning... not to offend you but part of learning is recognzing when to shoot for free and realizing when you shouldn't(and why).

LOL!

<<< ouch!

I actually did volunteer sa office namin to do shoots during events... and now they're asking me to do more shoots. i finally had the guts to say no. I was thinking "ang laki ng investment ko sa mga gamit ko, tapos libre?"

hindi naman sa pagdadamot, and hindi naman sa pag fe-feeling na pro kasi malayo pa naman ako dun, pero umaabuso na ung iba din.


Eto nalang: Time is gold. the only na hindi napapalitan. make it count.

Thanks for sharing.

I hope and pray every photographer gets to read this.

LOL!

<<< ouch!

I actually did volunteer sa office namin to do shoots during events... and now they're asking me to do more shoots. i finally had the guts to say no. I was thinking "ang laki ng investment ko sa mga gamit ko, tapos libre?"

hindi naman sa pagdadamot, and hindi naman sa pag fe-feeling na pro kasi malayo pa naman ako dun, pero umaabuso na ung iba din.


Eto nalang: Time is gold. the only na hindi napapalitan. make it count.


I think shooting for a favor is okay as long as it won't be much of a hassle to the photographer. AND, it should only happen once or else, lugi. :(

I definitely agree on this one. Yeah, all the investments and time involved, people/clients should also consider these things.

http://www.aphotoeditor.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/workforfree.jpg

http://www.aphotoeditor.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/workforfree.jpg

nice one! loved reading it.:Grin:

Saw the one about the mother? hehehe good one.

http://www.aphotoeditor.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/workforfree.jpg

This is clever!! TFS!

LOL!

<<< ouch!

I actually did volunteer sa office namin to do shoots during events... and now they're asking me to do more shoots. i finally had the guts to say no. I was thinking "ang laki ng investment ko sa mga gamit ko, tapos libre?"

hindi naman sa pagdadamot, and hindi naman sa pag fe-feeling na pro kasi malayo pa naman ako dun, pero umaabuso na ung iba din.


Eto nalang: Time is gold. the only na hindi napapalitan. make it count.

i worked for 2 years in call center and received no extra pay for my shoots there. they did however pull me out from receiving calls per assignment. an hour or two of shooting was much better and less stressful than taking calls. t'was good enough compensation for me. :) i'm sure you can ask for some sort of favor or perk instead of cash in return for shooting.

hi, this would be my first post here.

i've been reading through this thread almost half day.

with regards to the topic, i've done 2 free shoots so far, and after reading the shares, i felt guilty that i've been stealing lunch from other photographers. So i decided to be an apprentice of a pro for experience sake. :)

what do you guys think about this alternative instead of shooting for free for experience?

*Off-Topic:
in being an apprentice, do i get any form of allowance or something?

hi, this would be my first post here.

i've been reading through this thread almost half day.

with regards to the topic, i've done 2 free shoots so far, and after reading the shares, i felt guilty that i've been stealing lunch from other photographers. So i decided to be an apprentice of a pro for experience sake. :)

what do you guys think about this alternative instead of shooting for free for experience?

*Off-Topic:
in being an apprentice, do i get any form of allowance or something?

While I've never been an apprentice, but I fairly think your best compensation is not monetary but will be coming from your initiative to listen, grasp, absorb, analyze, contradict and embody valuable best practices, knowledge, and wisdom while apprenticing to a Pro.

Most successful person not only in the business of photography were once 'an apprentice' to a master.

/m

While I've never been an apprentice, but I fairly think your best compensation is not monetary but will be coming from your initiative to listen, grasp, absorb, analyze, contradict and embody valuable best practices, knowledge, and wisdom while apprenticing to a Pro.

Most successful person not only in the business of photography were once 'an apprentice' to a master.

/m

thank you sir... i will take your advice. :)

Regarding apprenticeship, think of it as being a student... Does the school/university pay you to attend? The 'mentor' is already incurring time and logistics cost to train someone (when he/she could've hired a trained assistant to reduce workload), why should the mentor pay you so you can learn?

Now if you applied for an assistant job (full/part time), then naturally, you should get paid.

The mentor is doing you a favor, not the other way around.

Pat Morita doesn't pay Daniel San :D